Is this a joke?

[Dima]

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=17973&forum_id=11&Topic_Title=How+do+I+build+a+good+3D+engine&Forum_Title=General+and+Game+Programming+Discussion&M=False&S=True
look how they are blothing about Carmack that he programs old days that unreal engine is good...
WELL NOOOO!!!!!
Unreal engine SUCKS BIG TIME DOOMGL looks better that this shit!
I would say they are fucking CRAZY!
Carmack is a GOD and with the Doom 3 engine he will show that to everyone!

[deadnail]

For fuck's sake, relax.

Both engines have their merits.

Unreal is aimed towards Glide.
Quake is aimed towards OpenGL.

Unreal handles outdoor areas better.
Quake handles higher poly models better.

Unreal Tournament has many pretty special effects to add dimension.
Quake 3 has true curving geometry, to avoid tesselation.

BOTH engines are GOOD.
Competition among game devolopers is a GOOD thing.
Prices go down, quality goes up.

Win/Win

This happens a lot with people around here.
You DON'T have to insult one game ot compliment another.
If you dislike it, simply say so.
DoomGL looks better? Yeah, right. Are you even serious?

I like them both.

But, hey, at least Unreal had a single player mode, and since I'm trapped on a 56k that's my big selling point. Hopefully Doom 3 will impress me, after I spend a few thousand dollars on upgrades so I can play it. :Þ

P3 450
256 SDRam
Voodoo 3

Oh yeah, in a year's time a Gigahertz Athlon Thunderbird + Motherboard should be snaggable for $500 combined.

Of course, I'm in a Gateway tower case so I don't even know if a newer video card will fit. :/ The damn SB Live didn't, and I ended up frying it when it came loose. Oops. :) Oh well, I just returned it. Heheh.

[Dima]

Unreal engine handles outdoor areas better?? yeah right!
Did u ever play Fakk 2 the areas there are larger than Unreal ones 2x times!
Tim Sweeney Vs John Carmack is like to compare Wolf3D=Doom 3!

[deadnail]

You remember the tower level in Unreal 1? That's 2x bigger than ANYTHING in FAKK 2. Besides, the Jungle levels in FAKK 2 aren't really that big, it's a gaming trick. It does look great, though.

Now you're trying to compare Unreal with Wolf3D?
Thank you for proving my point.

[Dima]

Unreal to Wolf3D?? I don't get it explain please!
Fakk 2 is mostly played outdoor not indoor!
Quake 3 engine does outdoor enviroments even if they are smaller than Unreal's MUCH better than Unreal engine!
I finished both games and I enjoyed Fakk 2 enviroments much more than Unreal's enviroments!
So there u go if we compare Wolf3D to Doom 3 Tim Sweeney is Wolf3D and John Carmack is Doom 3!

[deadnail]

Unreal to Wolf3D? Explain? You just did.

FAKK 2 is mostly indoor, and the ONLY level that really impressed me was the blood level. The game is even shorter than SoF for God's sake. The level design is good, but not earth shattering.

Every game engine does indoor as well as outdoor areas.
Quake 3 vs Unreal is just a mere matter of semantics, and you are biased towards Quake 3.
Fine.
Either will do, so long as the LEVELS are designed originally and above all else, are fun to play.
If you want to get nasty, Serious Sam does outdoor areas 4x bigger than ANYTHING in Unreal. That hurts more because it's from a no-name company.

You enjoyed FAKK 2 more than Unreal?
Our opinions differ here.
Both games were, at their cores, originally designed and fun to play.
Unreal took me a week to conquer.
FAKK 2 took me two days, during other activities.
The weapons were better in FAKK 2, I'll give you that.
You must also remember the what, 2, 3 year difference between releases? Of course games are supposed to look better a few years apart!

iD has *never* fully utilized the full potential of their engines. Raven has fully proven that with their releases.

Fine, Sweeney vs Carmack and Carmack wins.
Sure.
Okay.
Who cares? :)
Why in the name of God did this conversation get started?
An Unreal slam-fest?
It was a decent game.

You just wanted to say you like iD a lot more than Epic.

We get it. :)

[Dima]

1)Who cares about Serious Sam,the models there are terribly low in polygons!
2)ID never realise their engine capabalities?! THAT'S BULLSHIT!
I never played id's game that didn't realize that the engine's full capabalities!
Doom 3 will prove ur wrong if u don't believe me now!

[Guest spacedog]

they are blothing about Carmack that he programs old days that unreal engine is good...
What the fuck does that mean? is it english, if so i think i'd better go back to school and learn the damn language again 'cos i doesn't make sense to me. Blothing?

[Dima]

Sorry!
What I meant to say is that they are saying that Carmack is programming still like he did the days of Doom and they also say that the results speak for themselves that's right they do!
Unreal engine sucks Quake 3 rocks!

[deadnail]

Dima said:

1)Who cares about Serious Sam,the models there are terribly low in polygons!
2)ID never realise their engine capabalities?! THAT'S BULLSHIT!
I never played id's game that didn't realize that the engine's full capabalities!
Doom 3 will prove ur wrong if u don't believe me now!

No, it's true, iD never fully utilized their engine's capabilities.

Doom 2 didn't make the use of the Doom engine that Heretic did, what with an inventory and aiming up an down.

Hexen 2 made stronger graphical use of the Quake engine than Quake did.

Sin, even though most people hate it, did a very impressive job with the Quake 2 engine and has accomplished just about PERFECT level flow.

The Quake 3 engine, even though it's really the Quake 2 engine with better graphics end and networking, was BARELY used by iD. FAKK 2 proves that. Why waste the game on just multiplayer when it's capable of so much more?

Are we done yet here?
This thread is getting boring.

[Dima]

1)Quake 3 engine is not an upgrade for Quake 2 engine keep that in mind!
2)Quake 3 engine a waste by ID!?!?! r u totaly insane?
They used the engine to it's full capablities!!
FAKK 2 actually didn't!

[Zaldron]

deadnail said:

No, it's true, iD never fully utilized their engine's capabilities.

Doom 2 didn't make the use of the Doom engine that Heretic did, what with an inventory and aiming up an down.

Hexen 2 made stronger graphical use of the Quake engine than Quake did.

Sin, even though most people hate it, did a very impressive job with the Quake 2 engine and has accomplished just about PERFECT level flow.

The Quake 3 engine, even though it's really the Quake 2 engine with better graphics end and networking, was BARELY used by iD. FAKK 2 proves that. Why waste the game on just multiplayer when it's capable of so much more?

Are we done yet here?
This thread is getting boring.

You´re completely right. But that´s because iD is the first in testing the engine capabilities. Once they´re proven, other companies can start doing wacky stuff.

[Zaldron]

Dima said:

1)Quake 3 engine is not an upgrade for Quake 2 engine keep that in mind!
2)Quake 3 engine a waste by ID!?!?! r u totaly insane?
They used the engine to it's full capablities!!
FAKK 2 actually didn't!

Wrong, indeed, Q3A engine is an Q2 upgrade, just as Q2 is a Q upgrade. D3 will be the first in a long time in iD´s history to be considered as "made from scratch". This is not completely true, but everything that is really important on an engine is being started from scratch.

2)Quake 3 engine a waste by ID!?!?! r u totaly insane?
They used the engine to it's full capablities!!

That´s not true, Q3A levels were arenas, designed for speed and good flowing. If you believe that´s all it can archieve, then you´re completely wrong. Make a visit in planetQuake, you´ll find some mind-blowing user levels.

[deadnail]

Dima said:

1)Quake 3 engine is not an upgrade for Quake 2 engine keep that in mind!
2)Quake 3 engine a waste by ID!?!?! r u totaly insane?
They used the engine to it's full capablities!!
FAKK 2 actually didn't!

The Quake 3 engine is not an upgrade from the Quake 2 engine?
From what I've heard, the Q3 engine **IS** the Q2 engine with new rendering and network code.

Yes, Q3 was wasted by iD. They didn't do 50% of what that engine was capable of.

Almost all of the multitexturing was just used with that chrome effect, no grain on stone. None of Q3's levels were truly interactive, whereas in FAKK 2 you could blow down a wall in almost every level.

Almost all the lighting in Quake 3 was aligned just like it was in Quake 2. FAKK 2 had MUCH better lighting.

Above all else, MUTLIPLAYER ONLY GAMES SUCK. The 'single player' botmatch bullshit is just like a cheap alternative to multiplayer when the internet is out. Quake 3 had no real single player mode, and that's where it fails the worst. Unreal Tournament also ate it here.

Now, I assume your going to argue that the multiplayer is so excellent there was no need for single player? Wrong.

Turok 3 comes with 48 deathmatch-only maps, and MORE deathmatch styles than the Q3 deathmatch, team dm, and ctf. What's even better about a good deathmatch is WHEN IT IS A SUPPLEMENT TO A GOOD SINGLE PLAYER.

That's why iD fucked up Q3.

No single player.

[deadnail]

Zaldron said:

Wrong, indeed, Q3A engine is an Q2 upgrade, just as Q2 is a Q upgrade. D3 will be the first in a long time in iD´s history to be considered as "made from scratch". This is not completely true, but everything that is really important on an engine is being started from scratch.

2)Quake 3 engine a waste by ID!?!?! r u totaly insane?
They used the engine to it's full capablities!!

That´s not true, Q3A levels were arenas, designed for speed and good flowing. If you believe that´s all it can archieve, then you´re completely wrong. Make a visit in planetQuake, you´ll find some mind-blowing user levels.

Jesus thanks for catching my back, Zaldron! I've been trying to argue with Dima for God knows how long now and he just keeps hissing over and over about how set he is in his own mind.

Nothing I've said so far has seemed to change his thoughts. Thanks for giving me a hand.

[Zaldron]

My pleasure.

You´re right about the engine competition topic, and iD´s use of their engines.
About Q3 itself, i believe it´s the best multiplayer game out there, but only because the community is bigger and very creative. Incredible mods have been done with the Q´s. That´s what it keeps the things flowing. I believe that Quake 1 most important feature was QuakeC. The capability to bend the how the executable works have expanded the FPS genre several times more than the official games.

It would have been so cool if Q3A had a single player campaign that resembles Quake 1 one. A fiend or a shambler type of monster with that bot AI would have been incredible. Let´s hope that D3 enemies use modified versions of BOT AI, not those stupid behaviors that every FPS game has.


Finally, about all the crap being argued in outdoor/indoor areas. Thanks to hardware perspective correction (something like 4 years old), triangles on levels can be as giant as anyone wants. The outdoor area main problem is that depends on a very far clipping plane. For those that don´t know what is clipping plane, it´s an imaginary plane always in front of your vision. Every triangle that is behind the plane would not be drawn. It helps the visibility algorithms to archieve decent framerates. The only reason why Unreal make better outdoor enviroments than Q2 ones is because clipping plane is farther. Serious Sam looks like he never uses that feature, but the poly counts are much lower.

[EllipsusD]

Bloody hell! This series of posts is insane. Sorry, Dima, but I have to agree with Deadnail and Zaldron here. Just because the Unreal engine is a competitional engine to Carmack's creations doesn't mean it sucks. It gives a different atmosphere than Quake, and it more of a different type of game. I personally enjoyed it. It was more difficult than Q2, and I have been more impressed with it. The engines are different, but that largly plays into the type of games that the engines are used for.
As for the arguement of engine usage, I think iD uses a lot of the engines potential, but lately it seems that the games have been based around the engines so that it doesn't feel like the engines have been used as much. Keep in mind that other developers add in there own code to enhance the engine, so comparing games using the same engine is more like comparing apples and oranges. Besides, I personally don't see anything wrong with iD not using their engines full extreme. Many people don't have Carmack's talent, and maybe he chooses to leave options available so that those using his engines can still have impressive games.

[Guest ildon]

deadnail said:

No, it's true, iD never fully utilized their engine's capabilities.

Doom 2 didn't make the use of the Doom engine that Heretic did, what with an inventory and aiming up an down.

Hexen 2 made stronger graphical use of the Quake engine than Quake did.

Sin, even though most people hate it, did a very impressive job with the Quake 2 engine and has accomplished just about PERFECT level flow.

The Quake 3 engine, even though it's really the Quake 2 engine with better graphics end and networking, was BARELY used by iD. FAKK 2 proves that. Why waste the game on just multiplayer when it's capable of so much more?

Are we done yet here?
This thread is getting boring.

just didnt want you to think everyone is an idiot.
unreal was impressive when it came out.
i thought it had nicer graphics than quake2, and a better storyline.
you're also absolutely right about id not realizing the full potential of their own engines.
in fact a lot of people think of them as an engine liscensing company more than a game company.
quake2/3 were basically technology demos to sell the engine.
look at sin, kingpin, Sof, daikatana, and (hahahaha valve sucks) half-life for q2. (valve liscensed both q1 and q2. the schmucks. god talk about bad programming... nevermind... off topic)
look at fakk2, and elite forces for q3.

[Guest fraggle`]

are you infact jeffk?

[Jon]

ildon said:

just didnt want you to think everyone is an idiot.
unreal was impressive when it came out.
i thought it had nicer graphics than quake2, and a better storyline.
you're also absolutely right about id not realizing the full potential of their own engines.
in fact a lot of people think of them as an engine liscensing company more than a game company.
quake2/3 were basically technology demos to sell the engine.
look at sin, kingpin, Sof, daikatana, and (hahahaha valve sucks) half-life for q2. (valve liscensed both q1 and q2. the schmucks. god talk about bad programming... nevermind... off topic)
look at fakk2, and elite forces for q3.

I'll say... halflife 0wnz you... I'd like you to do better.