Games that ID should take a good look at

[NiGHTMARE]

We all know that most software companies get many of their ideas from games made by rival companies, so here's my list of games they need to study carefully when designing the gameplay aspects of the new Doom (other than Doom 1 and 2 of course):


- System Shock 2

This game is even more scary than Doom 1 and 2, although it creates its sense of fear in slightly different ways. Like the best horror films, it's mostly psychological.

This may be considered heresy, but I would be very pleased if something like the cyber modules system was used in the new game so you could upgrade your statistics too.

Also, the inventory system in SS2 is probably the best yet seen in an FPS. If Doom 3 is going to have one, they couldn't go wrong by using something similar.


- Half-life / Elite Force

ID need to study the scripted sequences of these two games very closely. If the new game doesn't have scripts, it will be really, really crap. I'm sure they'll also get script ideas from the new Wolfenstein game, which is apparently very script heavy (one level is a kind of recreation of the beach landing at the start of Saving Private Ryan), and which ID are closely supervising.

If they're going to have NPCs (non-player characters), they should also take a good look at the ones in HL and Elite Force to see how NOT to do them. I want to see a proper conversation system like there is in Strife, Ultima Underworld 1 & 2, etc.

Also, if the NPCs are going to fight back, I don't want to see them start relentlessly attacking you for shooting them when you didn't actually shoot them, and in fact fired 180 degrees away from them (as seen in Elite Force). The friendly marines in the HL: Opposing Force add-on were also pretty crap, in that they had a very strong tendency to get stuck in places.

One good thing about the NPCs in both games is that they had different skills that you could use. Opposing Force has a medic, a blow torch guy and marines with various different guns, and Elite Force has a medic, a technician, and security guys with various different guns (hmm, I think I see a pattern here =p ).


KISS: Pyscho Circus / Serious Sam

ID need to balance individual models' polygon counts over the number of enemies than can be on screen, and both these games do this very well indeed.

Doom might be capable of having 50 Imps in one room, but none of the original levels do this (well, maybe map30) and quite frankly I'm not exactly a huge fan of Hell Revealed style fragfests. Maps that have relatively few enemies, but the few enemies that are around are well placed, can create a real sense of atmosphere and fear. If anyone has played the first level of the Inferno episode for Doom 1 (the add-on, not the one in the game), you'll know what I'm talking about. Many of the maps in the Talosian Incident also do this very well.

I doubt a game where you are overwhelmed by hoardes of enemies would be recieved well by the current general gaming crowd either, and remember that ID are going to want to make a profit from this game, and so it is not us Doom elitists that ID are going to be primarily worried about but rather the "Quake wankers" as many people call them (or something similar).

[deadnail]

Geez, you can still appreciate the classics as well as enjoy the newer games. Doing both lets you see with open eyes.

System Shock 2 did the fear thing better than any other game, or even movie I've seen for that matter, than it has ever been done before. It takes more than impaled marines to make me quiver.

As for upgrading your physical stats, well, it wouldn't make sense unless your character has cybernetic implants. So are we going to be playing a Marine, Cyborg, or Android? I vote Android. Cool ones, like Aliens, not that faggy one from Star Trek.

All NPC's in FPS games have really bothered me. None of them know how to walk, interact with their environments, or reflect on the game creators well. The only possible exception would be Half-Life, and even then their paths were scripted. When they strayed from them they wen't haywire. I remember the Barney in the train area just wouldn't get away from the track and I had to run him over. In OpFor I remember my buddy soldiers freaking out and attacking me for no reason, and sometimes suiciding in dangerous areas like electrified rails. Bots are no substitute, if there are NPC's they will need a lot more interactivity in their niche than just shooting whatever moves.

What about the NPC's in the latest Spec Ops game? One of my teammates not only shot me, but dumped a whole clip into my dead body. God, was there even any QC?

I'll also agree that it takes more than just humongous crowds of kamikaze enemies, but then again, one at a time or small groups of enemies every five minutes gets boring as hell. How about both styles? Half of a level as a slow paced adventure, then towards the end you get in a huge gunbattle?

I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[SoKatH]

I'm not sure hwo necessary scripted sequences would be to the new Doom. I mean if the new one is going to be like the old one in that it had very little plot, they would definitely not be necessary. But if they go towards more of a story line, then they could have their uses. But I'm not sure, we'll just have to wait.

Oh yeah and SS2, was a damn frightening game!

SoKatH

[Zaldron]

It is yet possible to make a fun single-player game without a storyline? I doubt it.
Besides, scripted sequences make the levels more interesting, adding more elements than just enemies standing on their feet is a good way to make each one feel unique.

[NiGHTMARE]

SoKatH said:

I'm not sure hwo necessary scripted sequences would be to the new Doom. I mean if the new one is going to be like the old one in that it had very little plot, they would definitely not be necessary. But if they go towards more of a story line, then they could have their uses. But I'm not sure, we'll just have to wait.

Oh yeah and SS2, was a damn frightening game!

SoKatH

ID have already more than hinted that new game will be fairly heavily story orientated, which is a good thing :)

Besdies, scripted sequences don't just resolve around storylines, you can do all sorts of things with them. Technically speaking, the original Dooms have scripted sequences of a sort. For example:

You enter a dimly lit room, and spot a keycard lying on a platform. You walk over to grab it, and suddenly the room's pitch black, walls are raising, and a horde of Imps are pouring in to try to rip you to shreds.

Classic Doom, sure, but we need something a little newer these days. Imagine the same room (although obviously looking a lot better graphics wise, maybe some true 3D and slopes in there somewhere =p):

You walk over to grab they key, and suddenly the entire room starts shaking, rubble begins to fall from the walls, and then a huge section of wall collapses. You clamber through, only to come face to face with ol' Cybie.

A bit better I think you'll agree :)

[NiGHTMARE]

deadnail said:

I love old games :) Adventures and RPGs in particular last a long time.

I have a load of Spectrum games on my HD, as well as some pretty old PC games, such as the Eye of the Beholder trilogy, Lands of Lore, Monkey Island 1 & 2, Ultima Underworld 1 & 2, the original System Shock, Fate of Atlantis, etc.

I did once own all (okay, most :) of these games, but I've downloaded most of them from abandonware sites 'caus 3.5 disks tend to go wrong after a few years (yes, even the back-ups ;) ).

About the no. of enemies issue, I didn't actually mean that there should ONLY be levels with few enemies around, although I still don't want HR style hordes at all (except maybe in the final level or something).

Regarding stats, I think it should just be the normal Doom guy, but his suit has all sorts of hardware built into it or something.

And finally NPCs. We just need to pray to god that if they're in, Carmack and co. come up with AI better than anything yet seen (although the Q3 code is admittedly pretty decent, the bots are just too fast and too careless to be confused with human players).

[deadnail]

Too fast, too careless, too chatty, and the fact that they track you through walls and can make 1/1000th of a second rails makes me want to find that code and take a torch to that section of the Quake 3 disc.

[deadnail]

NiGHTMARE said:

ID have already more than hinted that new game will be fairly heavily story orientated, which is a good thing :)

Besdies, scripted sequences don't just resolve around storylines, you can do all sorts of things with them. Technically speaking, the original Dooms have scripted sequences of a sort. For example:

You enter a dimly lit room, and spot a keycard lying on a platform. You walk over to grab it, and suddenly the room's pitch black, walls are raising, and a horde of Imps are pouring in to try to rip you to shreds.

Classic Doom, sure, but we need something a little newer these days. Imagine the same room (although obviously looking a lot better graphics wise, maybe some true 3D and slopes in there somewhere =p):

You walk over to grab they key, and suddenly the entire room starts shaking, rubble begins to fall from the walls, and then a huge section of wall collapses. You clamber through, only to come face to face with ol' Cybie.

A bit better I think you'll agree :)

The hell is this, Raiders of the Lost Ark?

Howabout we forget about the damn keycards eh? It's a bit old, tired, and dead. I'm sick of flogging the horse. Although Sin did have a few keys required the gameplay was mostly %400 better than Quake 2. Soldier of Fortune also has great level flow. Why should we go back to keys?

[NiGHTMARE]

This is an ID Software game, of course it'll have keys. The Command Keen series, Wolfenstein, Doom, Doom 2, Quake, Quake 2. All have keys. I'm sure if Q3: Arena hadn't been DM only it would have had keys too =p

I'm not saying that I want keys, I'm just saying that the chances are that they'll be there :)

[Guest TossMonkey]

Zaldron said:

It is yet possible to make a fun single-player game without a storyline? I doubt it.
Besides, scripted sequences make the levels more interesting, adding more elements than just enemies standing on their feet is a good way to make each one feel unique.

I think we are missing one great game here. BLOOD!!!! I think it is sad that this is not usually considered a classic. And thief, and that nova game by looking glass ( i cant remember the name).
These are all great games which are often overlooked.

[Zaldron]

deadnail said:

The hell is this, Raiders of the Lost Ark?

Howabout we forget about the damn keycards eh? It's a bit old, tired, and dead. I'm sick of flogging the horse. Although Sin did have a few keys required the gameplay was mostly %400 better than Quake 2. Soldier of Fortune also has great level flow. Why should we go back to keys?

Every game uses the key cliché somewhere.
DooM looked like if the demons had some religious insane obssesion with keys. Always on altars, or entire rooms dedicated to them.
If iD´s gonna put some keys around the place, please, in some forgotten table, or in the belt of a dead security guard.

[Zaldron]

About your thoughts :

Fear : SS2 is a very good example. DooM had a problem concerning that scary feel. It was entirely based on enemies. I think that iD should use many elements & tricks to perform that psychological effect. A new engine could be easily tweaked in the proper direction. I´m hoping to see extra features in that engine that benefit entirely a DooM game, not the license. (Example : Thief sound&light behaviors, SoF GHOUL. They made that things to enhance the game experience)

Have you´ve seen today´s combat armor? I believe that space marines would have full-customizable armor. Entirely designed for hostile enviroments. I mean, a combat suit for the 22th, 23th century should include full image enhancing, infrared sensors, automatic medical treatment, communicatios systems, etc.
If iD´s going to create that much useful armors, then i hope they get screwed up with impacts like MechWarrior HUD, until becoming useless.

Inventory sytem : no doubt

Scripts : right, i posted a response somewhere

NPCs : if they´re going to be in the game, then they should be unique. Every thing you sayed is right, but i should look some new way to archieve conversation. Something that not disrupt the game flow.

Polycounts : i´m a fan of heavy polycounts. But i realize that DooM needs some fairly big amounts of enemies. For "fairly big" i mean 12 maximum. Greater crowds aren´t easy to handle. Besides, giantic hordes aren´t really hard when there´s place to circular strafe. Instead, 5 attacking you from opposite directions in a tight corridor it´s a really hard test.


In conclusion, yeah, iD´s hoping to make profit with this title. Every company wants that with their production. But i hope they make DooM for the hardcore gamer, not the casual one. FPS players that never touches "easy" difficulty, who spends nights playing and MB´s of their hard drives with mods and levels.

[Lord FlatHead]

TossMonkey said:

I think we are missing one great game here. BLOOD!!!! I think it is sad that this is not usually considered a classic. And thief, and that nova game by looking glass ( i cant remember the name).
These are all great games which are often overlooked.

Fuck yeah ! Blood IS a classic - the only Duke3d clone worth playing, and way underrated. I especially liked the dual Tommy guns :)

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