Weapon Functionality (Here we go again)

[deadnail]

Well, I've done about 4,248 posts on my weapon desires and maybe 2.5 on balancing and gameplay factors, so I guess this is another route I can take.

Nowadays a simple 'shoot' button isn't enough. Look at Soldier Of Fortune:
-Fire
-Alternate Fire
-Weapon Special 1
-Weapon Special 2
On top of this, Duke4 is introducing the 'grab' button. Not like the 'use' button, you can utilize Grab for other functions. Grab a table lamp and throw it at an enemy to get it's attention, or grab a low-level enemy by the shoulder and empty your machinegun into it's stomach. Naturally none of us know if this sort of thing can be done with the grab button but it's there for a reason.

If you haven't played SoF, lemme give you the run down on the special buttons. With the shotgun the specials just flip it like a soldier. Whoo. Useless. With the SMG and .44 Magnum they adjust carring position to aid in leaning. With the sniper rifle they zoom in and out, so you don't have to reset your zoom with just the alt-fire button, you can make minor adjustments.

They are basically just there for kicks, but it would be nice to see them in Doom 3 if only to add more detail.

So, here's the button configuration for weapon usage / area utilization that Doom 3 should have:
-Use
Doors don't open automatically. Well, maybe they do in the future but do levers automatically pull themselves down? Plus I am totally against shooting a wall to find a secret area. That is so gay it's difficult to watch without laughing.
-Fire
You oughta know what this does. Pull the trigger until whatever you don't like has gone away.
-Alternate Fire
An expansion on weapon design and a huge gameplay and skill booster. Bayonet on the rifle? Stab with it. Single barrelled shotgun? Lower it down and fire it as fast as your guy can pump it. Small machinegun? Turn on/off the built in flashlight. Default pistol?

Turn on/off the laser sight. Even though soldiers use 'Natural Point of Sight' and never really need to look down the sights in a heated battle, it's still handy for 'disarming' bombs from a distance or other precise aim shots.

-Quick Attack
Hell yeah. Bring it back from Duke 3D Goddammit! Pistol? Pistol whip. Hand to hand? Kick. Shotgun? Club ;). It's just too damn handy for breaking crates, windows, and the occasionally curious demon.

Also, fix it so that when you kick your character has to stop moving, all right? It was pretty gay to be running at top speed in Duke3D with one leg constantly sticking out.

Hmm, another thought. Picture an M4A1 assault rifle with an M9 bayonet attachment. Fire, shoot. Alt-Fire, select single shot or 3 shot burst. Quick-Fire, bayonet stab.

That's better, now that I think about it.

So, where does everyone else stand on this issue?

Want to keep the firing down to one button?
Like the quick attack idea, or hate it?
Want the cute special 1 and 2 button idea?

Might as well talk about it. Who knows, maybe Doom 3 has all of this and more. Let's just hope it doesn't use all 104 keys. ;)

[Zaldron]

I agree, this kind of little details will prove to be more than fancy, but really useful actions. For example, the break stuff with quick attack idea. Im SOOO tired of swapping between the crowbar/machine gun in HL, so as in Deus Ex. Altough crates should be opened, not bashed, this feature could be used to break stuff like windows, ventilation grids, computers, lamps, heads, etc.
About the grab key. I posted sometime ago in one of your posts than this would be useful to construct barricades, so i agree.
The special functions are very useful. In SoF was critical, because the pistol swapped hands while leaning. And yet, was also fancy. Nothing better than clean your knife after a good stab. This things may not be that useful, but they give the player more ways to express themselves in the game besides the overly used fire button. It boosts the inmersion factor.

[Guest elyuca]

Whats wrong with the old "give me a room full of imps, a big gun, and I'll do the rest"?

[SoKatH]

I'm not sure, I seem to recall someone (or perhaps a lot of people) saying something about how games had develloped beyond that. I mean if they are able to put that many imps in a room, that'd be cool, but hell.. Much as I would like to see the old style, things just gotta change...

S./

[Guest Doom4Ever]

elyuca said:

Whats wrong with the old "give me a room full of imps, a big gun, and I'll do the rest"?

i like that idea of "fill a room full a imps and gimme and a big gun and i'll do the rest." i think realistic games are ruining first person shooters. the idea of having to keep switching to the crowbar in half-life is rediculous so just let 3 bullets blow up a crate. i think that being unrealistic is what made doom great. screw headshots, screw breaking legs and arms ect., just let us blow the crap out of some deamons.

[deadnail]

SoKatH said:

I'm not sure, I seem to recall someone (or perhaps a lot of people) saying something about how games had develloped beyond that. I mean if they are able to put that many imps in a room, that'd be cool, but hell.. Much as I would like to see the old style, things just gotta change...

S./

Games HAVE developed beyond the Wolf3D syndrome that has plagued iD since they started making games (I think it was in Catacomb Abyss too, can't remember).

Shoot what moves.
Explore. If you see a switch, press it.
Shoot some more stuff.
Find a locked door. You need a key or a switch.
Shoot anything that's stupid enough to get in front of you.
Find a key, head back to the locked door.
Shoot some more stuff, again, only this time there's more of it.
Continue through locked door, see Step 1 and start over.

Jesus Christ, all the way through up to Quake 2. Sure, it had some 'mission objectives' like get the power cubes (keys), the data disc (keys), and the occaisional switch (instant key, no keyhole).

This game 'formula' is as old as the genre itself and it is completely fucking exhausted!

Howabout just blowing down any Goddamn door that's keeping you from your current objective?

Howabout every action you take in the game have a real effect on the level flow?

Howabout a fucking challenge for once? I'm not saying I can blow through the Suburbs level in 3 minutes and 26.23423235562 seconds and score 100 100 100 (or whatever the current record is), but the only enemy creature from iD to ever give me a run for my money would be the bots in Q3A.

They make better monsters than bots anyway. They trace you through walls and make near impossible shots. Of course, the damage variances don't help much either. Two railguns to the head and you're still moving? Didn't you just spawn? Oh, I get it, this is how you make a game more challenging.

Nerf the player? Give the enemy the ability to make pinpoint shots with a machinegun from literally half a mile away?

Fuck that.

Wouldn't you just feel that if Doom 3 was a total rehash of Doom 2 in 3D that you were cheated? Let down? Would you be happy if the game had zero gameplay improvements whatsoever?

Big assed guns the size of motorcycles.
25 shotgun shells in a box that could house a microwave.
Gigantic buttons on the walls, at least three foot square.
Everything is industructable, including tables and hair.
If someone has a cigar, shoot it and blow their head off.
Shooting something in the foot is just as good as the head.
Rockets push you back five feet. In fact, just fuck physics altogether.

For the love of Christ, I thought Doom 3 was supposed to be 'revolutionary'. Completely annihilate every other game in the genre. Be competely original in all of it's content and gameplay factors.

If it's the same shit was saw seven or eight years ago, then what the hell is so revolutionary?

[Tetzlaff]

What do you think about the weapon system in Gunman (the new Halflife TC)? I didn´t have the game yet, but what I´ve heard is that there is a very developped system of mutabile weapon functions, for example: the spray factor of the shotgun etc. Sounded interesting.

[stphrz]

deadnail said:

Shoot what moves.
Explore. If you see a switch, press it.
Shoot some more stuff.
Find a locked door. You need a key or a switch.
Shoot anything that's stupid enough to get in front of you.
Find a key, head back to the locked door.
Shoot some more stuff, again, only this time there's more of it.
Continue through locked door, see Step 1 and start over.

Yeah. Ain't it great. Kill 'em all kill 'em fast and onward :)

'Scuse me, I gotta go now, I'm getting all misty.