My Ammuniton Argument (No Insane Rablings)

[deadnail]

Okay, I know 99% of you have passed me off as a psycho living in the woods in Michigan with a stockpile of dangerous weaponry just waiting to snap.

That's a half truth. :)
Just pick the half you believe more, heheh.

In any damn case, some people here want to keep Doom the way it was, IE completely simplistic. My argument is, multiple ammunition can be included without being complicated!

Check out this page:
http://www.hitach.com/shop/Ammo.html

Agree that ammo is indeed a weapon and they aren't responsible for what you do with it, then click on 12 Gauge, and finally 12 Gauge Special Ammo.

I'll wait while you read down the list.

Done yet? You probably dig the explosive shells or the 3 second flamethrower shells! Cool ne?

See my point of how much gameplay this could add? Let me elaborate once again on how I would like to see this inside of Doom 3.

Setup: You're about 25% through the game. You don't have very many powerful weapons, and the best for you right about now is your standard shotgun. You just reloaded a quick save after an ambush of tough enemies totally kicked your ass. You now realize that your standard shotgun just will not get you through this situation satisfactorily.

So, since you saved in a 'cleared' area, press the 'a' button on your keyboard. Like the command menu in UT a menu pops up on your HUD that shows your current available 12 Gauge ammunition.

Standard
00 Buckshot
30
• Loaded

Penetrators
Rifled Slugs
12
Load
Load once, then use standard

Flechettes
High trauma dart clusters
4
Load
Load once, then use standard

Fireflies
Light armor piercing explosive rounds
0
Load
Load once, then use standard

Using the mouse cursor that pops up (again, ala UT), click on a box under your ammo. See your character unload his weapon then load in his specified munitions.

Choosing 'load' means that you're going to use this ammo until you either run out or specify some other ammo. Choosing 'load once' means that you'll use the first full load of it, then switch over to standard ammo once it's expended.

No reason to waste your good stuff on enemies you've already weakened, eh? Just make sure to hit each of those big bastards with a good powerful shot to cripple them first. :)

I'm not asked for fifty different ammos for fifty different weapons.

I'll simply say these ammo classes:
Pistol
Shotgun
Machinegun, Assault Rifle, Minigun
Grenades
Rockets (Was Carmack meaning Quest when he said no RL?)
Energy Cells
Ultra Weapon (Uses gasoline or souls or something, surprise me)

For multiple ammo, I would be quite happy with only 2 or 3, not even 4 ammos for each type.



So what the Hell would be the point, you ask?

Well, it's certianly a way to suddenly bring you back to using older weapons later in the game.

Say 80% of the way through the game the only ammo that's abundantly available is the strongest pistol ammo (making each shot do about 1/2 damage of a regular shotgun blast). The smartest thing to do would be to use that ammo while conserving your other ammo.

It's also handy for adjusting the skill level of a deathmatch. Using all the weakest ammo a deathmatch would have basically the same 4 factors of weaponry: distance vs speed, power vs skill. Only making the strongest ammo available (respawn with a pistol that could blow up fifty cars) would turn the match into a fast paced fragfest of whoever gets off the first clearest shot, and whoever controls the armor.

Hell, a slider bar could control this when setting up your DM server:
Ammo:
As Placed, Only level 1 ---- Only level 4

Does this really seem too damn complicated?

If I had any sort of a brain I would do it myself within a MOD.

Frequently Asked Questions:
===========================
Q: How would the ammo be dispersed? Would it be in different colored boxes, or would there be stockpiles with different amounts of each (12 standard, 4 slugs, etc.)?
A: Either works fine. Coming up to an opened crate labeled "12 Gauge Rifled Slugs, 3in, 23x78mm" would allow you to totally stock up on slugs every time you walked up to it, wheras finding a green shotgun shell box would give you 20 of 'em. Any downed soldiers would have been able to carry anything, so an almost Half-Life approach to the backpack would be fine.

Q: Wouldn't the strongest ammo make the game too easy?
A: Not at all if done right. The Revenant is a bit too thin to use slugs on and the Mancubus is a bit too fat for buckshot to cause enough trauma to bring him down. Besides, like you don't want to see a Plasma Rifle with double charge cells.

Q: Would enemies utilize different ammo?
A: Sounds good to me. You see one of them balding seargants with a shotgun... who knows what was loaded into it when he became a zombie? Could be one helluva surpise for you. :)

Q: Are you a dangerous, psychopathic person?
A: No. I have a minor chemical imbalance due to an overactive Thyroid but other than that I'm cool. I just like target shooting, it's a fun hobby. Try it. :)




Okay, now you guys can get back to insulting my derranged ass. Between insults though could you tell me if you like this idea, and if not, exactly what's wrong?
• It's not Doom.
• It's too complicated.
• It's unnecessary.
• It would make user levels too difficult to balance.
• It would make the game too easy. (Not if bosses are immune to certian ammo!)
• I just want to shoot things, not juggle my armaments.
• I don't want iD spending time on this when they could be making the game longer or adding more new enemies.





----------------------------Okay, one insane rambling-----
BTW, for home defense what do you think I would use? You probably think I'm crazy and I would use my SKS or some of those bolo or other savage 12 guage rounds. The fact of the matter is, having a weapon doesn't mean I WANT to kill anyone. The complete opposite is true. I'm not HOPING to kill anyone for Christ's sake, I really don't want to. My karma is fucked up enough.
What's worse, using one of those ultra-powerful rounds would do something else. Blow right through the fucker so fast he could keep shooting, and possibly right through the wall behind him and kill some other poor bastard. That's no good... that's why they make Avenger 12 Gauge ammo.
Oh, and in case you're curious, the maximum kill range of that SKS rifle is 2 miles, and I already have a great target range with over 2000 feet deep of dirt and rock to stop the round (20 feet would be enough) so don't worry about me killing anyone accidentally. I have a cliff. :)
----------------------------------------------------------

[tsareppsun]

I didn't know that people here saw you as a psycho, I guess I'm that one % who don't see you as such. Ya say you have a SKS with a kill range of 2 miles? That's strange,my mountain of assualt weapons books and tapes of historychannel's "Tales of the Gun" series tell me a much heavier M2-50.cal round power starts slowing down after about a mile in half. And what kind of ammo a standard SKS uses? 7.62x39,a chopped down version of a 7.62 NATO
cal for the M-60 machinegun. The standard assault rifle kill range is said to be inside 300-700 meter range. So I'll just assume you were just exaggerating when you said that a SKS can kill from 2 miles away. heh heh.

BUT THE HELL WITH THAT!!! Now on the real issue. WHHAASSAAAAP! Mr.Happy Days, How ya doing "BUCKO",I might have to start calling you "Oppie Cunningham" from happydays,since you like to call people bucko alot.

The thing is this, Your idea is Cool,not a thing wrong with it. But I think you forgot something important in your idea. When you fire all these different ammo types at an enemy it suppose to
have different effects on how it damages the enemy,right? Your visualizing it from a realistic prospective. That means If id does your idea, they'll have to draw,and redraw all the different
tissue damages textures to match all the differnt effects each of the ammo types that is used against them. And even if they don't go as far in being that detailed. If you shoot a monster/mutant down with a Shotgun using a 3 1/2 Magnum shell and
another with a flechettes shell, the tissue damage would be different of course, in real life,but in a video game? Come On,
the blast holes would more than likely look the same. So in that sence, what would be the point of all the different ammo types if
all you gonna get is the same dead looking corps? Maybe certain ammo might shred enemies on impact,while other might stagger them. Some ammo types might go threw an enemy so fast, that it won't even notice that it dead until it walks a couple of
yards. Kinda like a "DELAYED REACTION KILL". Maybe certain ammo types make the weapons sound different, buck more when firing,or
give larger muzzle flashes. I don't know man, now I'm just babbling. I'm just saying your idea is apt,And if I know id(AND I REALLY DON'T)they probably won't bother taking the time. So I rate this idea a GOOD,yet unnecessary.

P.S. Did you read what I wrote on "Status bar" post,and what I said about Solid Snake's SOCOM?

Later,OPPIE, And SIT ON IT, BUCKO! LOL

[deadnail]

Oppie? Sure, bucko, whatever floats ya.

There are about 6 different kinds of 7.62x39mm ammunition, and by far the best for regular hunting or defense use would be SWAT. However, using High Velocity rounds... yeah, you could kill someone from two miles away. Not accurately, of course. That bullet would be droppin' like a bitch! Firing it into the air at about a 45º angle... yeah, you could accidentally kill someone that far away.

That's why SWAT ammo is better. Just about every other round of 7.62x39 would plow right through anything but armor, walls included. So if you shot an intruder with it... boom. Nice hole there, bucko. Of course, the bullet would tear through him so fast the trauma wouldn't down him and he could still shoot you. Not good. SWAT ammo breaks apart upon impact. It won't go through a wall, and best of all, it causes a tremendous amount of trauma upon impact, thus downing your opponent for good.

Of course, SWAT ammo costs about forty times more...

What difference would it make in the game?
Shotgun example:
00 Buckshot - Spreads outwards, won't pierce armor or walls, medium trauma damage
Game translation - standard shot, when you kill something it falls backwards

Rifled Slugs - Flies straight, sharp point, pierces armor, high trauma damage (Whoops, was that your lung over there?)
Game translation - big bullet shot, gotta be accurate and at close range just flies right through your enemy... they can still get a few shots off

Frag Shot - filled with tacks or jagged metal, highest trauma, won't pierce armor
Game translation - Just like buckshot but does twice as much damage, if you kill something with this it ain't moving again

Fireflies - explosive shots, filled with incindiary napalm
Game translation - little rockets that fly like hitscans, will ignite any flammable object within distance, highest damage of all shotgun weapons... against an unarmored target



It wouldn't be too many new things, just animations of staggering and pain and such which will probably be there anyway. Burning textures, scorched textures, shredded textures, small medium and large bullet wounds/exit wounds... yadda yadda yadda alla these details are probably there anyway.


I don't get what the hell is so special about a SOCOM pistol. I haven't heard a damn thing about them, but every one of them I've seen has always had a suppressor and a laser sight.


You sit on it. You like it that way, don't you? I don't sit on things without a whole lotta provocation.

[Dima]

To tell u the truth I DON'T WANT THE NEW DOOM TO BE TOTALY LIKE THE ORIGINAL!
I mean I hate too many enemies on screen at once!!
I want 3-4 MAX!

[Guest elyuca]

Dude, I didnt bother to read the whole thing, make it a bit shorter. If its about ammo, I wont settle for anything less than Doom II's ammo

[Guest TossMonkey]

deadnail said:

I love the smell of napalm in the morning...

Thats why I want me some dragons breath ammo!

[Zaldron]

This is one interesting post. Adding different types of ammo for each weapon brings a lot more of strategy to the DooM formula, something that i see as a good thing, because DooM needs a lot of upgrading in his next incarnation to stand against the plethora of FPSs. Deus Ex use of this feature was not excessive, and yet, it proved to be a very helpful feature. Switching between ammo types brings more diversity to the killing, and it´s fairly easy to implement, cause there´s no need to create 30 extra weapons. Deus Ex had a very little weapon list, but I never found myself missing weaponry. With the different types of ammo, i was prepared for anything that I could encounter.
There´s one problem, and it´s the obvious slowdown of the killing. In games like Half-Life & Deus Ex, i love to spend some seconds in a safe corner, reloading my weapons to be prepared for the next gunfight. But if the enemy placement were very mixed in D3, you´ll have to stop continually just to switch to the proper ammo type.
My recomendation, first, a limit in carrying capacity. Then, add extra weapon holding. For example, you have your pistol (whatever model it is), if you find another one, you can take the ammo and discard the gun, or pick it up too. You can configure the ammo type in each one, and pressing the correct weapon number, you´ll switch from using the first one, the second one, or both simultaneously.
Yeah, sure, you can´t carry 4 shotguns, 3 pistols, 3 machine guns and 6 rifles just because you want to be ready for the fight, cause the weapon carrying limit, but smaller weapons could benefit from this feature.

[deadnail]

TossMonkey said:

I love the smell of napalm in the morning...

Thats why I want me some dragons breath ammo!

Yeah bucko, well you'd better start saving now! At about two or three dollars a shot that shit will add up fast! :)

Besides, what are you going to do with it, use your shotgun to get the snow off of your diveway?

[Guest elyuca]

deadnail said:

Up to now, Ive never seen an id game that calls their weapons with militaristic names. Just "shotgun", or "rifle" or "pistol" is fine for me. Thats why they called the super shotgun a supershotgun, and not a "double-barrelled elephant shotgun with whatever # guage rounds" That goes for the ammo too. WTF is "7.62x39mm ammunition" ????? If they put these names in the game, it wouldnt be Doom, itll just be SWAT 7 or whatever number they'll be on by then.
The only gun with numbers is the BFG, and the numbers dont mean anything. Sure 9000 could mean lots of things, like plasma energy in joules, but to me its just the number of zombies you can kill with on shot. Thats why the next BFG will be the BFG 20K :-)
To make a long story short, youre a weapons obsessed psychomaniac in a mission to kill the next president (hopefully youll kill bush :-b) And id is just a game developing megawarehouse that thinks up cool, simple guns and gives them cool, simple names.

[deadnail]

You've never played SoF, have you? Big long realistic gun names and ammo names... but during the game and not cinema scenes they go ahead and abbreviate them for simplicity.

Even then, a few hundred years into the future all of our current guns will be antiques, but I would at least like some form of effort put into their design! You know, since we haven't had that since Doom 64 in '96... and even then it was fairly half-assed.

If I was going to kill a president I would've done it already. Besides, you think one of my hunting firearms could do ANYTHING to the presidential security weapons? Ha!

Bush is the better man for the job anyways. Gore is a tool.

Oh, and if you don't know what a 7.62x39mm is, just think about it for two seconds. Maybe, just maybe it's the measurement of a bullet.

Dumbass.

[tsareppsun]

deadnail said:

NO,NO,NO man, I,m not refering to the SOCOM pistol itself, I,m talking about how it looks when S.Snake is firing the gun, the
pic,the anime, him holding the gun with both hands at the center
of the screen, like old Doom. The bucking of the slide action and the reload anime. And also Concering about what you wrote about customization the D3 marine,the race,the skin color, gender,names and whatnot.

The HK SOCOM Mark23 pistol, is a future upgrade of famed 1911 A-1 Colt automatic pistol,that still uses the stopping power of the 45 APC cal. It's considered STATE OF THE ART today in hanguns for SpecOps uses. 12 round capacity. All Army,Navy,Airforce,Marine SpecialForces units uses it as a very
popular sidearm.

[Eurhetemec]

deadnail said:

You've never played SoF, have you? Big long realistic gun names and ammo names... but during the game and not cinema scenes they go ahead and abbreviate them for simplicity.

Even then, a few hundred years into the future all of our current guns will be antiques, but I would at least like some form of effort put into their design! You know, since we haven't had that since Doom 64 in '96... and even then it was fairly half-assed.

If I was going to kill a president I would've done it already. Besides, you think one of my hunting firearms could do ANYTHING to the presidential security weapons? Ha!

Bush is the better man for the job anyways. Gore is a tool.

Oh, and if you don't know what a 7.62x39mm is, just think about it for two seconds. Maybe, just maybe it's the measurement of a bullet.

Dumbass.

As a bizarre variant gun-nut (ie. I know all about guns, but own none, and have no desire to, and indeed support gun control, freakishly. I find it amusing that you have the gall to call Gore a puppet! Compared to Bush!? But we aren't here to debate politics), I agree that Doom3 could be improved in quite a few ways by including different ammo types.

Loading need not be a problem for all guns. A futuristic shotgun or grenade launcher (the difference is a small one) could easily be made with an ammo hopper holding multiple ammo types, and be able to switch between them rapidly or even automatically(either with a cylinder holding them, or all in a magazine of some variety).

I'd suggest three types was the sane limit. We could have shot or flechette, rifled slug, and Dragon's breath for the "shotgun"-type weapon, we could have AP and HP or pre-fragmented rounds for the "small arm" (pistol, machine pistol, whatever it turned out to be), and so on. Energy weapons would have less point for this, but they could have different fire modes.

Different kinds of rocket-launcher ammo might be cool too, such as HE with flechettes and HEAT.

Still, it might slow the game down, but I suspect we will see that anyway, and I do think it would add to the whole thing, so long as not done obsessively (ie. you must load X ammo to fight Y monster and so on. If you needed AP in general to fight Robo-Orc they should include a weakspot where HP or Ball might get through).

You've got my vote.