A live doomboard! Yay! ^_^

[Guest 3dioot]

Hello all,

Here is something ive been wondering about. I presume you guys are just as enthusiastic about doom 3 as i am right? I mean its just cool to relive those scare experiences i've had with doom in the old days. Offcourse back then i was still a kid and now im a grown up (almost 22) but still.. If you look at the macworld movie it clearly shows that the game has grown aswell. It will have a really serious horror attitude this time. Which is cool. But now about what bugs (dunno if thats the right word for it) me.. =]

We have all seen the graphics engine. It rocks =] And offcourse in true Id software tradition you will need to buy a new system to be able to play it ;] But nonetheless. These are -real- advancements in graphics. Advancements that for the first time in a long while make me willing to spend some money on hardware to just play this game.. I do 3d for a hobby so i know most of the stuff he is talking about and yes its true; this will open a hell of a lot of possibilities... The cinematic drama he talks about will no doubt be in the game. It will make a game that makes resident evil in comparison look like a game for kids.. But there should be more right? Like cool gameplay. An immersive storyline perhaps? Scripting? All these things are going to be in the game (they say)..

Now truth be told i wonder how much of this is true but for the sake of argument lets pretend that they will all make it into the game. (if you remember quake3; not half of the promised features made it into that game). What can we expect with scripting? Ingame cutscenes perhaps? Allright. Cool. We walk into a dark hallway. The ingame cutscene kicks in and we are treated to the view of a zombie eating a dead marine (or something like that). It will be nice and add to the game but nothing that will make me wett my pants over. If they execute it really well we will get something comparable to halflife storyline. Now this is all very feasible and even "promised". But is that all that the new doom3 will need? And here we come to my point. Something that i have been waiting for in shooters for a long time.

We all love the combat aspect of first person shooters. I know i do for one =] Its a sort of competition. Every opponent is a direct challenge.. And the stakes are high (survival). So when i am being honest then an added storyline will be cool but its not the center of focus, its a bonus. As are scripted sequences. They are cool the first time but after that they are predictable and can even become a nuisance. (ingame cutscenes that cannot be skipped for example). So how can the combat experience be brought up to par with the graphics? I mean; if you compare quake with quake 2 when it comes to enemies and AI and the challenge they form and skills they demand the difference is minimal. I mean quake 1 and quake 2 creature AI just sucked major pants. In fact; even the so touted bot AI of q3 was a dissapointment (for me).

How will it look like if doom]I[ with its awesome graphics will have creatures that get stuck. Creatures that will show running frames when turning towards you. Creatures that are shot and show pain frames while still shooting. Creatures that die and keep lying on the edge of a platform with 2/3 of their body hanging over the edge of it. This is my primary fear for doom ]I[. It doesnt mean that i wont buy it. It doesnt mean that the game will suck. But i've seen many games recently that show what procedural (dunno if thats the right word for it) animation can do. A few examples. Any of you played hitman? All characters are full IK characters. If you shoot them their bodies will react to the impact of the bullets. It looks awesome. It looks real. For the first time in gaming history shooting a character looked real. If they die you dont get premade animation frames. no =] They fall depending on how you shot them and what objects are in the room. If you shoot somebody and he is standing in front of a wall he will fall back and slowly slip down and then fall to the side. Like NEO in the matrix. They will fall of stairs. Over railings.. All procedurally, never do they die in the same twice. Offcourse hitman is an extreme example (cause its executed extremely well; the whole game engine was build around it). But there are other examples. Another game that showed what was possible was mechwarrior 4. Everything in this game was awesome. I will start with the running. Never sliding feet. Never ever, ever sliding feet. If you walked up a hill your mech slowed down, the leg movement was perfect and the feet aligned to the slope of the mountain. It was amazing to see (for me). If you ran down and you mech exceede its full speed still the leg movements were correct. But that was not all. Weapons have impact on the mechs. Depending on where you shot them you would put momentum in the mechs. If you shoot on the left of the torso the mech would spin to the left a little. On the right half then it spins a little to the right. And even this was beyond basic bodyparts combat. It really makes a difference wether you shot near the center of the mech or far away from it (like a shoulder hit). This added so much. You could for example damage a mech merely by shooting it in its back when it was firing missiles. If your weapon was heavy enough it would bulge forward and damage itself though splashdamage because the missiles would shoot into the ground. But this even translated to arms. If you saw a mech aiming for you, you could shoot the arm so it would swing away and the shot would miss you! Now as a last example MGS2.. If you have seen the movie you know what im talking about. The draggin around of bodies (as in hitman).. The soldier that gets shot and falls over a railing.. The difference it makes in where you shoot the characters..

This is procedural (or parametric; can somebody tell me what is correct?) animation. This is what should be in doom]I[. Im not saying it should be like in hitman. Im not saying it should be like in mw4 or as in mgs2 but it just should be implemented. Im tired of shooting an enemy that is actually a box that shows some premade frames when somethign happens (like when it gets shot, dies or jumps etc).. Its old. New graphics are old ;]. I want physics, i want parametric animation and i want awesome creature AI. Nomatter how cool the new doom]I[ looks if they can build the stuff i mentioned above into the game using the quake3 or even quake2 engine it would make me anticipate the game more then i do now. With the current processor power so much more is possible except nice graphics. I allready know they use skeletal animation. Lets just hope they use it to the fullest extent possible and dont make this game half. Even on the simplest level it would give a game like doom3 so much more. Imagine a demon that always looks at you (yes; the head moves like in quake3 mplayer). Can you see the visual impact "tricks" like these will have?

So, lots of text. Im just curious about others opinions. Tell me what you think of this. Tell me what you prefer (game[lay/physics or graphics) and tell me anything else you want to tell. The only thing i ask is that this does not turn into a list of non feasible features. The above is possible (as proofed by other games). thankyou ^_^

GrtZ 3dioot


PS
I originally posted this at another board with a few followups. If your interested;

http://www.mgoforum.com/showthread.php?s=a7c9be90d87a28b50a76e27b43aeac45&threadid=47656

[Guest CRiZ]

I totally agree with you. Good physics and IK skeletons MUST be in Doom3. The physics must be on par with the graphic sophistication or else the game will look silly.
We have more available CPU time for physics right? So then no more bounding boxes. Collision detection should be done at triangle resolution. And yes! Conservation of linear and angular momentum!

[kain]

The one thing i dont get is when in games when you die next to the wall, half of your body goes through it and i dont get it cus there should be a simple way to fix it. you know what i am talking about?

[Guest CRiZ]

I'm pretty sure this happens because your bounding-box/collision-detection-gizmo dissapears when you die and so your mesh is allowed to penetrate the wall.

[kain]

I also hate it when the camer ( if there ever will be one ) goes into the wall. But i guess that doesnt happen anymore. Sonicadventure had the best camera system i have ever seen.

[maga]

hey, I think that the future is motion capture.
The IK is vaaaaay to slow to implement in a game that asks
for hundreds of animations. I've tried myself some IK in MAX,
and I must say it's a nonproductive way....
waiting comments....

[Speshul Eddy]

kain said:

I also hate it when the camer ( if there ever will be one ) goes into the wall. But i guess that doesnt happen anymore. Sonicadventure had the best camera system i have ever seen.

well normally the only games that have camera problems like that are third-person, so I wouldn't worry.

Also, it would be kinda cool if some creature animations could be set up so that, say, an enemy could turn it's head and growl at you before attacking, instead of just pivoting around and charging. I also hope that enemies won't gib from shotgun blasts, and that perhaps when there's a body on the floor, other enemies could actually fall on it when they die, rather than just clipping through it. That way you could actually make a pile of dead enemies, rather than an intertwining mess of limbs and torsos.

of course, all the programming to make that stuff work well would be a real bear, but definitely worth it.

anyway, judging the way the critters move in the video, I'm sure the animation and interaction in the game will be something special, especially now that it's geared towards immersiveness, rather than the arcade-like action of Q3A.

[Guest 3dioot]

Hey thnx for all the replies..

Its a shame kain started on third person perspective games and cameras but anywyz ;] Still cool to have a board that lives on doom3. Great to go to when i get overexcited over a game that will take two years to produce ^_^ lol!

And magma.. I work in 3dsmax aswell. And quite frankly i dont think you know what you are talking about. If there is a place for IK then -IT IS- in games. The requirements for character animation between cinema and games are very, very different. But you'll find that out for yourself if you would look into this subject a little further.


GrtZ 3dioot

[Davidoom]

Well...I'm buying a total new big state of the art computer for my sexy beautiful, cool copy of wait for it.......NEW DOOM....
Oh yes, I can't wait for both...

[CHAINSAW+DGM]

3dioot said:

Hello all, Here is something ive been wondering about. I presume you guys are just as enthusiastic about doom 3 as i am right? I mean its just cool to relive those scare experiences i've had with

arrrrrrrgggggg! too much wrighting!
my mind! help me.....arrrrrrrggg!

[CHAINSAW+DGM]

kain said:

The one thing i dont get is when in games when you die next to the wall, half of your body goes through it and i dont get it cus there should be a simple way to fix it. you know what i am talking about?

I'm in the middle of converting doom to quake and I've notested that happening and what I'm trying to make are 'slumping' corpses
that bend at the joints when they hit some thing so they slump against the walls or steps

but I still end up with floating corpses when just the end of one
clips the edge of a plat step and the whole thing acts like it's on the same level at the step

another way of correcting this I've tryed is making them slide
away from walls but this just look werid in the game and sometimes they don't stop sliding (when the walls are to close together or in a corner) and they just slide around the floor
under their own power.
but the most annoying thing is when exploshons go through thin walls and floors and you can see them on the other side
and they still hurt you through a solid but thin wall!

[CHAINSAW+DGM]

Speshul Eddy said:

I also hope that enemies won't gib from shotgun blasts

as you may have seen from some other post of mine I'm working on
DOOM-QUAKE or doom for quake on the grunts I have made some extra
frames of animation and a new blood soked skin to make what I call a 'minigib'. basicly the grunts chest explodes sokes his corps in blood and falls to the floor like normal apart from
the 'blood soked' skin.this new death sequence is set off by
the super shotgun,the plasma gun and the BFG. it's got a few buggs still dose any one know how to fix 'em?

1 some time the gib stays in the air and the corpse falls

2 some times a second intact corpse will fly out of his chest
and fall half into the floor up to the waist

3 some times the grunt just dissapears when he dies

leave me a message if you know how to fix this!