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Xfing

Do you think D1 looked better than D2?

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D2 was kinda monotonous, with all those tan walls and bricks. I did like some new technical textures it introduced such as the black metal wall and the green metal wall, but overall I found that the best looking maps were the ones initially designed for Doom 1, such as the amazing Citadel (I love that particular kind of gray brick that comprises it, also the red brick area is wonderful).

It's no secret that D2 was comparatively never very hellish in appearance, even in the final third of the game (only saving grace being Map 28, clearly). The new gray "occult" walls bore slight hints of the ominous green brick, but failed to replicate the feeling and libraries such as those in Monster Condo were real pretty, but not at all infernal.

And I do think it's ok that Doom 2's artistic direction emphasized going for something different than Doom 1 - sure enough. The games present different kinds of progression from techbase to hell and Doom 2's distinct feel has its many charms. However I feel that it lacks those hellish reds, greens and most importantly the beautiful blue/red animated wall.

While the original Doom was sometimes all over the place with the texturing (especially in E2), I found taht DTWiD did a much better job with the textures, them being very appropriate and tastefully meshed together in most cases (not so much in D2TWiD, as to mirror the original game itself). But for example E2M9: Nebulous Origins is probably the most beautiful Doom 1 style map I've played - it meshes the techbase and the hellish aspect perfectly while emphasizing the "Phobos Anomaly" feel as I like to call it: the gray brick mixed with water, torches and the flickering blue/red texture. Why couldn't Doom 2 be more like this?

And what are your opinions? What are your favorite themes and texture kinds from both games?

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Both games have their fair share of ugly levels. I think Doom 2 has overally greater percentage of ugly textures in its stock, and in its levels too. D2 levels also feel more "crude" and "blocky" on average, in contrast with Doom 1's non-orthogonal wildly-shaped layouts (some of them). Where Doom 1 has cramped but relatively detailed and colorful bases, Doom 2 has views into impressively large areas with little detail, but that can also suffice to create immersion.

My favorite theme is colorful techbase, and both Doom 1's E1 and Doom 2's E1 fits the description well-enough, even if I can notice more "blocki-ness" in the D2 maps.

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D1 certainly looked better, but I actually prefer D2's raw exclusive assets, despite the fact that many of them are ugly, because the good ones are pretty damn good. My favorite D1-exclusive textures are SKINTEK and the additional TEKWALLs; Doom 2 has BRICK7, BRICK10, and the ZIMMER and PAN families, which are great.

I'm a sucker for the E1 style, if only for nostalgia's sake -- when I was like six years old, the shareware episode was Doom to me. D2's ugliness has grown on me; when I first got D2 as a kid, I was like "This is it?" but the abstract wonkiness of Petersen's maps especially is fun to look at from time to time. It's like probing into the head of a madman.

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Doom 2's stuff looks way better to me, not just better than the previous game but also than most of the stuff in Final Doom (although there are a few Plutonia maps with really gorgeous combinations of colours and such) - Doom 2 is the best stock level set for sheer height and distance, and its big expanses look naturally great in the engine, even if it's all textured in tanrock8 and modwall

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I think Ultimate Doom has a more vibrant color palette, and as a mapper I find that it has a higher ratio of textures that are just useful, whereas Doom 2 expands the texture pool but adds a lot of brown schmutz that's hard to use effectively.

HOWEVER, the wood panel textures in Doom 2 are all awesome. It is the true expression of Episode 4's wood-hell theme.

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D1 has more consistent theming which is a big part of it, but I think what really sets it apart is the level design. I think the biggest comparison in level design is the dark souls series, where the levels seem to wrap around into eachother and you are constantly finding alternate shortcuts to previous areas. I think this naturally makes the levels more visually intriguing.

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D1 had more atmosphere to it. It was at its prime(100%). D2 was (80-85%), you can tell effort was poured forth into it but not enough to give it the glory D1 had. But, many wads address these issues. So in a sense, I consider both to be, one of the same game, pretty much. :-)

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You had me until

Xfing said:

beautiful blue/red animated wall


Although in all seriousness, I do agree. Doom 1 just feels better made, even episode three. I disliked doom 2 when I first played it but I've grown to appreciate its take on the hell atmosphere too, and I also never gave too much of a fuck about colorfulness so the brownness of Doom 2 is in no way detrimental to my opinion. In fact I find it kinda adds to the mood, more than the carnival visuals that doom 1 sometimes had.

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I like all the marble textures, if only because I like the feeling of the marble walls and the more the merrier, imo. But otherwise, Doom 1 seemed a bit more colorful, with all of the more brightly colored tech bases. If I remember correctly, Doom I also either had brightly lit areas, or darkly lit areas. Part of Doom II's muddiness I think came from a lot of more in between lighting that was neither very bright nor very dark.

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...Hmm...Now that I think of it..
Doom was A LOT more vivid with colors than Doom II.
Heck! The first level of Doom E1M1 had blue, red, and etc, without even exploring the area for colorful rooms (its right in front of me!).

Doom II's MAP01 started out with...brown...and more brown related colors. So,Doom is technically more colorful than Doom II (possibly that Doom was a fantasized shooter, unrealistic areas with ugly creatures, while Doom II seemed to approach with what places in life would be like-dull).

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Doom 1 was miles better than Doom 2 in terms of texturing. Sandy Peterson really had a huge workload in Doom 2 and a lot of his maps seemed rushed, despite how fun they are.

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Doom 1 blows Doom 2 out of the water. In fact, it blows every official Doom release out of the water. The aesthetics of the original can never be beat. It has the perfect feeling everywhere it needs to, from mars to hell to everything in between. Doom 2 is ugly and amateurish looking by comparison.

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Doom 1 had more vivid colors and it's a shame they had to remove so many of Doom 1's textures for memory reasons. I imagine the levels could have had a chance to pop more if they had all Doom 1 textures to work with in addition to the newer Doom 2 ones.

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MetroidJunkie said:

Doom 1 had more vivid colors and it's a shame they had to remove so many of Doom 1's textures for memory reasons. I imagine the levels could have had a chance to pop more if they had all Doom 1 textures to work with in addition to the newer Doom 2 ones.

It was probably a deliberate choice in order to give it a different "look". Both Final Doom IWADs had Doom 1 textures in them, so they could have done the same in Doom 2. RAM isn't a concern period, since only used textures are in RAM. Distribution and storage is more of a concern.

See the beta version levels that used more Doom 1 textures, they're pretty interesting to look at.

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MetroidJunkie said:

Doom 1 had more vivid colors and it's a shame they had to remove so many of Doom 1's textures for memory reasons. I imagine the levels could have had a chance to pop more if they had all Doom 1 textures to work with in addition to the newer Doom 2 ones.


That big slime fall building in The Chasm could have been made of FIREBLU

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I like Doom 2's textures better. A few of the omissions are missed, but all the new stuff allows for so many more themes.

But I think the main reason I'd consider Doom 2 a better-looking game is because it has more varied and complex locations, which made for more interesting and diverse scenes. A lot of Doom 1 was comparatively basic corridor-shooter stuff, and I don't think anything in the original game compares to the striking visual atmosphere of something like The Living End. The use of space and shapes and lighting... no comparison, IMO!

Also, since this common misconception has been brought up again: Sandy was most definitely not rushed when making Doom 2. On the contrary, it was actually Doom 1 where he was rushed, because he was hired roughly two months before the game was released, and needed to learn to map and complete episodes 2 and 3 in just those two months. Doom 2's schedule was positively relaxed compared to that, and that combined with the experience gained from working on the first game to allow for far more ambitious design.

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MetroidJunkie said:

Doom 1 had more vivid colors and it's a shame they had to remove so many of Doom 1's textures for memory reasons. I imagine the levels could have had a chance to pop more if they had all Doom 1 textures to work with in addition to the newer Doom 2 ones.

Maybe this can be implented as a texture mod for Doom 2.

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I'll reiterate my long-standing opinion: E3 is a pile of feces. Its sole truly good map bears the most hideous of all Sandy visuals. Its sole good looking map is nearly empty and dull to play. The rest is bad, rushed filler both aesthetically and gameplay-wise.

People compare Doom's best to Doom 2's worst and then invent theories to support their personal feelings. Doom 2's best overshadows Doom's best easily.

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Doom 2 has some really nice textures for some quite diverse level types. The ashwall, zimmer, rock and stone textures let you make all manner of natural landscapes, and you can still build shiny techbases with "silver" and computers.

As for IWADs, Doom 1 may look better than Doom 2 simply because it's set in space and hell, unlike Doom 2 which is mostly set in a ruined Earth modern-day city, which is very mundane, and the Doom 2 hell is very low-key, preferring to look like old houses instead of fire/brimstone, which may not impress viewers.

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Episode 1 of Doom1 looks the "best" in that the texturing is coherent and there's a fairly meticulous (for the time) attention to detail.

Anyone who thinks E2 or E3 look "better" than Doom2 are just nostalgic.

I'm using quotes cause all this shit is subjective, I think basically all the IWAD maps look fine and it brings my piss to a boil when people shit on a WAD just because the texturing is basic. It's all a stylization choice and no one opinion of what makes for "good" texturing is objectively true.

dew said:

Doom 2's best overshadows Doom's best easily.

Good lord, SO much this.

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It was more colorful and less brown. I guess Doom1 was grey for a while. Other than that both games are the same.

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dew said:

I'll reiterate my long-standing opinion: E3 is a pile of feces. Its sole truly good map bears the most hideous of all Sandy visuals. Its sole good looking map is nearly empty and dull to play. The rest is bad, rushed filler both aesthetically and gameplay-wise.

I would argue that aside from E3M6 and E3M7 (which I suppose are the maps you're referring to), E3M2 isn't really bad either. Its concept may be simple and gameplay may be filler-ish, but it makes sense in the E3 setting, as a somewhat-cool hellish location meant to be explored, and looks OK at least for me. Contents of the finger caves are disappointing, though.

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The best looking D2 maps are better looking than the best looking UD maps. the worst from each are about even but there's more of em in D2. Overall, I'd say D2 edges it.

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I found that most of DOOM's maps actually looked like an actual location where I found many of DOOM 2's maps were just walls, keys and monsters which made DOOM 2 feel like more of the same.

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RUSH said:

Doom 1 blows Doom 2 out of the water. In fact, it blows every official Doom release out of the water. The aesthetics of the original can never be beat. It has the perfect feeling everywhere it needs to, from mars to hell to everything in between. Doom 2 is ugly and amateurish looking by comparison.


This pretty much sums it up...

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Doom 1's style resembles me of the old '3D' screen saver maze while Doom 2 actually has something else than flat floors with roof scratching your forehead.

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Voros said:

Maybe this can be implented as a texture mod for Doom 2.


There were several "Doom 1 textures for Doom 2" packs, as early as 1994 in fact, which allowed playing Doom 1 PWADs directly on Doom 2 (provided you changed ExMy to MAPzz, ofc).

@Sodaholic: yeah, only the used textures reside in memory, but if RAM is not enough to hold them all, they have to be swapped in/out of RAM, and that resulted in horrible disk trashing, back in the day. Doom 2 was already pretty marginal on 4 MB with the extra monsters, and just about tolerable with 8 MB. I don't want to imagine how having an extra 2-3 MB of textures to contend with at any time would be like.

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