What are the trade-offs between modern and 90's mapping?

[Maes]

Memfis said:

?!
People mapped with keyboard only?

Truth be said, you'd be hard pressed to find a PC user in 1994 that could get by entirely without a mouse. Point'n'click games, GUIs, graphical shells and of course Windows were nothing new, plus Atari STs and Amigas came with a mouse as a standard since the 80s.

[40oz]

Soundblock said:

I don't agree with all that you said (e.g. self indulgence), but that was a really insightful post 40oz. Valuable views, from someone who has trawled the archives. To me the above quote was the core of the post, and carries over into the Doom vs modern FPS'es subject, which I'd say is a subset of this debate. One of the more unique features of Doom is its capability to play into abstraction. I don't think Doom 4 will do that, nor any CoD, nor any Fallout.

If you don't mind me asking, what part specifically do you disagree with? Is it that level designers are not self indulging by making maps? Or that there were fewer mappers in the 90s than there are today? Not to imply that I disagree with you; I came up with those observations on my own without thoroughly trying to disprove them, so I'm sure my conclusion is not without its holes.

One other thing that I forgot to mention, is that your typical modern map usually depends on right/orthogonal angles, precise measurements, and repeating patterns, to emphasize sector detail and texture alignments, and has the unfortunate side effect of making more abstract pencil drawing shapes for rooms and parts of rooms more difficult to work with than a 90s map that doesn't rely on detail to get its visual setting across.

[VGamingJunkie]

Maes said:

Truth be said, you'd be hard pressed to find a PC user in 1994 that could get by entirely without a mouse. Point'n'click games, GUIs, graphical shells and of course Windows were nothing new, plus Atari STs and Amigas came with a mouse as a standard since the 80s.

And why would you want to, anyway? A mouse gives you a more direct and precise method of control. It certainly makes looking and aiming around in games a hell of a lot easier than just being confined to a keyboard. Even taking vertical aiming out of the equation, Doom just works better when you have a mouse.

[scifista42]

MetroidJunkie said:

And why would you want to, anyway?

To save money by not buying the mouse. :)

[Memfis]

The feeling of using only one device to operate a computer is very cool IMO. Much cooler than random switching between keyboard and mouse all the time.

[Soundblock]

40oz said:

If you don't mind me asking, what part specifically do you disagree with?

Oh, mainly choices of words in the fifth paragraph. Nothing major, if I understood you right. I'll try and dissect it a little more...

40oz said:

The majority of "90's maps" are comprised of maps that were made by someone with a very small body of work. Doom attracted many thousands of people to try and make maps, and many of the releases that are from the 90's and in the archives are the only maps the authors ever made. This is more than likely the opposite in the last decade, in which many of the people that are still here are either not mapping at all, or have released a lot of work in the past and are continuing to self indulge in their mapping addiction.

A well put rationale ended on a negative note here I guess, is why I reacted to this. Partially true, with the self indulgence, but that's hardly the whole reason anybody keep mapping (assuming you mean mapping, and not playing maps)?

40oz said:

[...]This may be the real cause of the homogeneous qualities people are identifying in projects made by critically acclaimed mappers, and the lack of originality that was seen in the 90's.

I didn't think the 90's saw a lot of lack of originality. Perhaps we've played very different projects (I never touched DZONE!) but the ones I played felt very original at the time...

40oz said:

Nobody really had any general guidelines that what they were doing was the right or wrong way to do it or if their maps were going to be any fun or not.

Other than an inherent sense of aesthetics, fun and many hours of playtesting? :-)

Besides these nitpicks, I'm with you all the way, and I didn't find it to be glorifying the 90's or anything. Respect to the new greats, but it would be nice to carry over as much of the old gold as possible, for future maps.

[Steve D]

MetroidJunkie said:

And why would you want to, anyway? A mouse gives you a more direct and precise method of control. It certainly makes looking and aiming around in games a hell of a lot easier than just being confined to a keyboard. Even taking vertical aiming out of the equation, Doom just works better when you have a mouse.

I still play Doom keyboard only. Try it sometime on a Ribbiks map. You'll thank me. ;)

[june gloom]

I'd rather shower with Phml than do that.

[Steve D]

I don't know Phml personally, so I can't comment. ;)

[Steve D]

As a '90s-era mapper, I find myself agreeing with most of what 40oz said. As he points out, the primary reason so many '90s maps suck is because most were from one-and-done mappers. Sometimes the one-and-done mappers produced masterpieces like UAC-Dead, but mostly they made hideous maps with horrible layout and gameplay. There was a strong tendency towards mazey maps, which have the virtue of making individual monsters dangerous in close-quarters battle, but also the disadvantage of often confusing layout and boring visuals. When maps were not mazey, they tended to be corridor-crawls, because those were easier to make than more ambitious environments. Then there was the always reliable, "Open door, shoot monsters" gambit where everything is in front of you and you can just camp the doorway.

When it comes to the innovative aspects we sometimes see in '90s maps, that's probably because, from the millions of people playing Doom back then, there were enough people who said, "I have a cool idea" who were able, to some extent, to make their dreams come true in the Doom engine.

As a general rule, I have never been a fan of that stuff. Mazes, switch-hunts, puzzles and even "originality" typically meant less to me than brutal combat and interesting environments. If we look at the '90s mapsets I've replayed most often -- Fava Beans and Osiris -- it becomes apparent that the environment trumps everything else in my house, because these mapsets are pretty easy, but they look fantastic. This carries on into today, because my favorite modern map is probably "Back To Saturn X Radio Report," from BTSX E1. The sheer beauty of the map is like something out of Quake 2. The music is fantastic, and the gameplay, while easy, holds my interest thanks to tried-and true flanking and multi-height attacks. To me, this map represents the gold standard of what the Doom engine can accomplish in representational yet abstract maps.

As to my own maps, I still make basically the kind of maps I did in the '90s when I'm doing the base-style. What I've added since then is arena and abstract maps and what I call "slaughtery" or "hardcore" gameplay, which means that I don't make actual slaughtermaps, but I use tons of monsters against you, which is how slaughtermappers have influenced me. My '90s maps probably don't appeal to fans of the '90s because they were big, splashy maps with high monster counts and were more like poorly-done modern maps, thus lacking the quirky side that '90s fans seem to enjoy. That's not to say the quirks weren't there, for example the mandatory secret door to exit Map09 in Realm of Chaos. Some players might like that, but to me it's a lasting embarrassment, an example of the "cheap difficulty" emblematic of the era.

Returning to 40oz's point that most modern mappers are people with a lot of mapping experience, you see the inevitable refinement of elements, and in the main, this has led to more attractive environments and a heavier emphasis on combat for people who want to get in and get out of a map in short order and relieve some stress along the way through shooting stuff. There is still a sizeable element in the community who like trickier maps, and they can be found enjoying the work of Eternal. I tend towards the Skillsaw side of things. There is room for all.