Is Evilution the best WAD from Team TNT

[Jaws In Space]

Do you think that Evilution is Team TNT's best WAD? I've played Evilution, Icarus, parts of Eternal Doom & Daedalus. From what I've seen TNT just got worse with every release they had. I know they had deathmatch maps as well, but I don't know too much about them, the only one I've heard anything good about is Bloodlands, which is their first deathmatch wad.

[Andrea Rovenski]

Only played Evilution and parts of Icarus, and I prefer Evilution.

[scifista42]

I personally like Evilution the most, but I know that there are people who actually prefer Eternal Doom, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody preferred any other of their work, it's a subjective thing.

[Lila Feuer]

Evilution is probably their strongest Doom II game. Eternal Doom was fantastic though and would of been more suited as a 'Final Doom' kind of game.

[mrthejoshmon]

Evilution is best TNT wad IMO, close second is good old Icarus.

[yakfak]

Eternal Doom is legitimately good all the way through, you just need to suspend a lot of what you expect from Doom to enjoy it, ignore the massive mono-texturing, accept the Hexen-y feel, press up to every wall floor and tree, accept all the floating text etc... weird as hell but very well designed and a great challenge.

TNT collapses hilariously in the third act as we all know, plus a lot of the music sounds unfinished to me

[gemini09]

yakfak said:

Eternal Doom is legitimately good

Yes!

Eternal DOOM is the best TNT Wad!

Thanks in large part to the fantastic complementary-resources by Rich Nagel and Sverre Kvernmo. Eternal DOOM is the amazing soundtrack and the awesome status-bar face.

The level design is grand in the best levels of the megawad, and while a lot of the puzzles are borderline hopeless, I regard them as unfortunate flaws in an otherwise fantastic package.

I made it through Eternal DOOM, and I say that with a great deal of pride and satisfaction.

[SFoZ911]

I also find Evilution to be the best from teamTNT. It's the only one that I managed to actually finish from start to end and also the nostalgic value it has. I played Icarus up until the map 8 where I completely lost any interest, probably because of that yellow key puzzle. It's even worse in Eternal. I strongly dislike the new HUD and the monster skin changes, and the map design is completely unappealing to me.

[gaspe]

Eternal Doom definetely. I agree with Yakfak saying that it's good all the way through, while Evilution has many low moments mixed in all the wad. Imo Icarus is the weakest of their wads. I still have to play Daedalus so I can't say anything about it.

[Khorus]

I always want to quit playing Evilution after a few maps. It's the IWAD I like the least, too much bad amongst too little good. I like Eternal Doom a lot more, but it's probably been 8 years since I last played it. I'll have to give it another whack.

[40oz]

I'm gonna go ahead and say I liked Icarus more than Evilution. The quality of the maps are not very far apart but the structure of Icarus itself as a megawad regarding the order and arrangement of the maps is pretty novel. Its got some weird map ideas but how maps end with a familiar landmark is a really cool way to transition into the next map. Even though the next map is nonsensical, the previous map ended with a "Begin Simulation" sign before the exit pad which suspends your disbelief and connects all the maps together into one continuous journey that uses otherwise random assets.

I think a community project that adapts to that sort of structure could be really immersive, as long as it doesn't blatantly out itself as "Icarus 2" but the concept of ending maps with teleports and hinting to what the style of the next map will be with some familiar visual cues can hold a really unique individualist maps in one neat little package.

[HavoX]

To me, there is no best WAD because it is an objectionable subject. I like them all. :)

[purist]

Icarus and Evilution both have their stinkers but Icarus maps finish sooner so I guess it wins in the smallest way possible. I've not played Eternal or Daedelus but from what I've heard they won't be my cup of tea.

[Xaser]

Eternal Doom IMO only because its gems shine exceptionally bright. Jim Flynn for the win.


[EDIT] Also Time Gate because GGGGOOOOODDDD DAMN that lighting is great

[Dime]

TNT has its share of high points but I haven't seen many other wad's that fall off a cliff quite like TNT. The map quality just takes a nosedive half way through.

[Lila Feuer]

40oz said:

I'm gonna go ahead and say I liked Icarus more than Evilution. The quality of the maps are not very far apart but the structure of Icarus itself as a megawad regarding the order and arrangement of the maps is pretty novel. Its got some weird map ideas but how maps end with a familiar landmark is a really cool way to transition into the next map. Even though the next map is nonsensical, the previous map ended with a "Begin Simulation" sign before the exit pad which suspends your disbelief and connects all the maps together into one continuous journey that uses otherwise random assets.

Icarus has an interesting and unique concept for a megawad, the idea of being on a ship (of the same name) and visiting other planets and the aforementioned simulations and returning to the ship. I have yet to finish Icarus despite having started it 3 or 4 times and getting halfway through and losing interest for whatever reason. That never happened with the other classic 90's megawads. I guess I'll have to try again someday.

Dime said:

TNT has its share of high points but I haven't seen many other wad's that fall off a cliff quite like TNT. The map quality just takes a nosedive half way through.

TNT's first (1-11) and second (12-20) set of levels are good for the most part, but the last 10 are indeed pretty terrible. With Habitat being the worst offender in just about every way.

[Yuki Senmatsu]

I use that for DOOM 2 wads for the most part so, yes.

[Doomkid]

Bloodlands, Grievance and Pursuit are their best wads cause they are DM wads and DM is more fun than SP c:

[Andrea Rovenski]

Habitat and Baron's Den are some of my favorite IWAD levels.

Debate me

[Lila Feuer]

Cyberdemon531 said:

Habitat and Baron's Den are some of my favorite IWAD levels.

Debate me

Baron's Den was fine IMO. But Habitat has a mandatory key behind a fake wall, and is almost entirely void of any sense of place or design, even for Doom II IWAD standards.

[Andrea Rovenski]

Cyanosis said:

Baron's Den was fine IMO. But Habitat has a mandatory key behind a fake wall, and is almost entirely void of any sense of place or design, even for Doom II IWAD standards.

Mandatory? You should take a look at the map again. Also, IMO the maze is really fun and cool.

As far cryptic design, is it worse than shooting a wall in Citadel to raise a platform? That stumped me forever since I had used a plasma rifle my first time :P

[Dave The Daring]

Cyberdemon531 said:

Debate me

What are your views on proportional representation as a method for electing members to a legislative body, such as an assembly or parliament, as opposed to a voting system that is more majoritarian, like plurality voting?

[Andrea Rovenski]

Dave The Daring said:

What are your views on proportional representation as a method for electing members to a legislative body, such as an assembly or parliament, as opposed to a voting system that is more majoritarian, like plurality voting?

I have to agree with that statement right there, honestly.

[Dave The Daring]

Cyberdemon531 said:

I have to agree with that statement right there, honestly.

Nice.

[Voros]

I only played Evilution and Eternal Doom
the folowing are IMO:
Evilution has great soundtrack to slaughter demons and cool map design.
Eternal Doom has this gothic look mixed with futuristic looks. Heck, the first level was realistic with the cryo pods and hallways that remind me of a spaceship...

I didnt like:
Eternal Doom's mugshot looked weird for me, especially the brownish shoulders and helmet...and the death mugshot...
Evilution was fine for what it was, a progressive campaign.

I liked both, but Evilution is the best IMO.

[Memfis]

Umm, I'm pretty sure it was actually Baron's Den that had the red skull behind a fake wall. Which is why in childhood we with my brother deemed that level as impossible. We couldn't beat it even with IDDQD!

[Demon of the Well]

Eternal Doom (the complete edition, that is) is my favorite of Team TNT's projects, easily. It is very much an acquired taste and prominently features a number of design elements that are not as 'en vogue' now in 2015 as they were back when it was made (huge maps, puzzle/switch-hunt/exploration emphasis, rather limited degrees of setpiece/backfoot combat, etc.), but overall I think it's very well-realized conceptually, and memorable aesthetically. Maps by Chris Couleur, Sverre Kvernmo, and Paul Schmitz acquit themselves nicely here (I strongly prefer a lot of Jim Flynn's maps from outside of ED to his late maps in this one, personally).

Of the other major TNT SP WADs, Evilution is probably second place, and I would agree is probably the single project most emblematic of the group's various strengths and weaknesses--plenty of cool maps in it, some interesting assets and music, but also a fair share of rather dire material and some facepalm-worthy oversights (the infamous map 31 yellow key, patched later, etc.) and design decisions. Like some others have said, its entertainment value generally falls off a cliff in its 3rd episode, and that's probably my single biggest beef with it, though I am quite fond of the map 20/21 adventure combo, at least. Overall my attitude towards Evilution is perfectly genial, and I reckon it's more than worthy of some playtime, though I suppose I have to admit it always has existed somewhat in Plutonia's shadow in my consciousness.

Icarus is essentially Evilution's doofy little brother, with a similar spread of virtues and faults, more moderate in delivery, ultimately less striking in effect. I've always liked the level-framing concept of Icarus (spaceship alternated with planet alternated with VR simulation), I like a lot of its music, and it has some nostalgic value for me, but taking a step back I think its batting average of good:mediocre:poor maps is significantly more slanted towards 'mediocre' than in Evilution, and the entire project comes off as a bit speedmappy (excepting those few maps not originally made for Icarus, tellingly), to its detriment. Again, not a WAD it's difficult for me to look kindly upon, but it's not meet to ignore its shortcomings purely out of deference to nostalgia, I suppose. I wonder how many modern players might actually prefer it to Evilution, though.....it generally is more straightforward in progression (excepting the baffling 'knock' door in 'WarTemple', and perhaps the hidden red key in 'Feeding Frenzy') and has much shorter maps overall, which is a quality that many consider ideal at present. There are perhaps some parallels to be drawn with Perdition's Gate, another mapset that has seen its public appeal rise in recent years (although I feel PG is a total rip-off of a product, personally).

Daedalus, at least as ambitious an undertaking as Eternal Doom before it, is the runt of the litter, IMO. It is very much a product--and I daresay, a victim--of the time when it was designed, its basic gameplay often buckling under the weight of novelty-based engine/object features smattered about for the sake of it. Progression through Daedalus is muddier than in the vast majority of Eternal Doom, and its handling of combat tends to skew towards unwieldy cleanup jobs, away from the light incidental fare of its predecessor, meaning that combat as often detracts from the experience as it complements it. Aesthetically that characteristic imbalance in art quality of assets that has always defined the TNT look is particularly pronounced and meshes oddly with the somewhat greater overall level of sector-based/geometric detail than in past TNT WADs. All things considered, time has been particularly unkind to this WAD, though for my part I didn't really care for it even back when it was new.

[blueinferno776]

TNT IMO is their best, it had some strong distinction from level to level which made it very easy to play start to finish. MAP14,MAP21,MAP28,MAP29 are my favorites. Metal and Stronghold are a nightmare! Just cruel.

Eternal doom..meh. I liked the time travel concept but being stuck on one level for hours and hours gets very annoying.

Daedalus gave me serious metroid fusion vibes and one of the best zdoom mods I played.

I did not care for the rest of their work too much not to discredit TNTs hard work.

[T-Rex]

Evilution has always strike me a good impression. While I praise Plutonia for its over-the-top difficulty which predates the likes of Hell Revealed and Alien Vendetta, TNT has quite a nice assortment of styles, you get the techbases, industrial locales, underground caves, and hellish outposts. Many of the maps attempted a quasi-realism, though barely matching that of Duke Nukem 3D. The large-scale maps like those by Drake O'Brien were probably a precursor to Eternal Doom as they were considerably much larger and more complex than Doom 2's bigger maps. In spite of all that, there's no denying that TNT had some stinkers, I mean there's a few maps that were either downright ugly (Metal), or horrendously tedious (Mount Pain), not to mention that it had a rather anticlimactic finale. Nevertheless, TNT is still a good megawad and is one of the most important wads in all of Doom.

I like Icarus for its space theme as most of the ship maps look like inspirations from Star Wars and Star Trek, and its the first to make the space station theme prominent. Although I still prefer Evilution as it has much better designed maps, especially those by Tom Mustaine, the Casalis, and Jimmy Sieben, I feel it's more of a draw between it and Icarus.

Eternal Doom, I don't have much to say, other than it is indeed a matter of taste, you either like it or hate it, but I must say it's probably the best Team TNT project as it has many talented mappers who made awesome wads outside Eternal Doom, like Jim Flynn, Sverre Kvernmo, Paul Schmitz, and Bob Evans. It is also Eternal Doom that made me search for maps made by its contributors.

Finally, Daedalus has a rather intriguing concept. While it is a sequel to Icarus, it feels very distant from its predecessor. It tries to take full advantage of the ZDoom engine, and it has more emphasis on adventure and puzzle solving rather than straight-up action. It's a poor man's Half-Life, but at least it's well done and has plenty of good bits here and there.

[blueinferno776]

My first run with mount pain was horrible, not only I was getting my ass kicked visplane overflows are relentless near the end of it. I hated doom 95 oh and I must bring up the missing yellow key glitch in pharoh.