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Doctor Nick

FreeDoom maps still needed

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Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

I think Phase 2's Map17 either requires an overhaul, or a remake. I volunteer for it in case it's needed.

Go for it. :)

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CWolfRu said:

Updated files:

C1M9
C2M7


Nice, C2M7 looks great now. This will be committed after the next release, chungy has frozen for 0.10, which should be this week.

With C1M9, I think you went too much in the opposite direction. It's a pretty sparse map now, wide open spaces with only 40 monsters.
What I think would be nice if these spaces were sectioned off, like big doors between the areas, with more monsters within. That would make it more interesting.

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Doctor Nick said:

With C1M9, I think you went too much in the opposite direction. It's a pretty sparse map now, wide open spaces with only 40 monsters.
What I think would be nice if these spaces were sectioned off, like big doors between the areas, with more monsters within. That would make it more interesting.


Hmm... okay.

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CWolfRu said:

C1M9 updated.

Same link that I posted earlier today.


Thanks, this map is shaping up. It's much more fun and interesting now.

A couple things:

You still have a big open hallway running through most of the map, which means that most of the monsters will be active and the player can see them from all the way across the map. I would add some doors in the hallway so that the player doesn't have a good idea of what to expect when he runs through.

The player start sector is marked as a secret, I would remove this, especially considering there's at least one other secret in the map.


I think after that, this map should be good to go.

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Doctor Nick said:

You still have a big open hallway running through most of the map, which means that most of the monsters will be active and the player can see them from all the way across the map. I would add some doors in the hallway so that the player doesn't have a good idea of what to expect when he runs through.

The player start sector is marked as a secret, I would remove this, especially considering there's at least one other secret in the map.


1) That grey hallway, right? Well, yeah, little door would be nice there. I'll do it.

2) Ummmmm... alright.

Here we go.

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Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Is it ok to use these textures, and/or make new ones based on existing textures that can be appropriate for the map?


There's been some talk about using extra textures here, although I don't think we have reached a consensus yet. So for now I would suggest sticking to the stock textures.

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CWolfRu said:

1) That grey hallway, right? Well, yeah, little door would be nice there. I'll do it.

2) Ummmmm... alright.

Here we go.


excellent, I think this is ready to submit. It should be committed after this version release.

EDIT: Actually, I was able to sneak C2M7 and C1M9 into the repo, so you should see them in 0.10!

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Thanks.

I don't like being a Debbie Downer, but that map needed to go. Somewhere else.

I know it sucks when you have to do that sort of thing. Hurt feelings, etc., but it's necessary sometimes.

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Doctor Nick said:

EDIT: Actually, I was able to sneak C2M7 and C1M9 into the repo, so you should see them in 0.10!


))) Good news. Thank you.

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frithiof said:

Thanks.

I don't like being a Debbie Downer, but that map needed to go. Somewhere else.

I just wanna go ahead and say that I think "MAP13: Return to Earth" should go aswell for most of the same reasons (sacrificing gameplay for realism). Although they're done to a somewhat lesser extreme in comparison to MAP09.

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I will speak up in support of map13. There are much worse. 5, 14, 21, 23, 24, 29 to name a few.

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fabian said:

Ahem, 5 is _much_ better since a few days. ;)

Hmm okay, I hadn't tried your new version, so I recorded a first attempt. (Although of course, I've played the old version long ago, so it's not a completely blind run.)

Major annoyances like endless slime tunnels and running from radsuit to radsuit are gone, but it's still

- confusing; in particular, what you don't see in the recording is the 10 minutes I had the game paused while trying to work out how to get the red key in an editor. Presumably I had done this before, but I completely forgot.

- irritatingly weaponless; I have a shotgun, always running out of shells. I have hundreds of bullets, but where's the chaingun? Having to resort to the pistol is annoying.

I appreciate what you've done. I know it wasn't your map to begin with. Now having picked it up and spent time working on it, you probably feel an attachment to it. But I still think it would be better replaced entirely.

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RjY said:

- confusing; in particular, what you don't see in the recording is the 10 minutes I had the game paused while trying to work out how to get the red key in an editor. Presumably I had done this before, but I completely forgot.


Yeah, that red key thing can be a little confusing. I recently played through the map again, and I think what is happening is that the red key is getting "flushed down the toilet", and you have to follow the water path into that pit.

Which is, in itself, slightly confusing because you were already in that area to get the yellow key. Maybe just have the red key reappear in that pool of water directly in front of the toilet bowl? Add something that looks like a metal grate in the water path, to stop the key.

Key hunts aren't as much fun as some people think they are...

edit: Thanks for all your hard work, everyone! This is starting to become a fun, enjoyable game in and of itself. :)

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frithiof said:

I think what is happening is that the red key is getting "flushed down the toilet", and you have to follow the water path into that pit.

Which is, in itself, slightly confusing because you were already in that area to get the yellow key.


Thank you, I see that now. The mechanic works in e.g. MM2 map10 because the key is in a tank and reappears in a room next door, not halfway across the map, a long sequence of windy tunnels away. Amarande evidently expected players to be clairvoyant.

Maybe just have the red key reappear in that pool of water directly in front of the toilet bowl? Add something that looks like a metal grate in the water path, to stop the key.


Indeed and it could be done really nicely in Boom with conveyor floors.

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Well, I "finished" the new Map17.
I think it still needs more detail inside the cathedral and on the alleys, but gameplay-wise, it's pretty much finished. Gonna finish the extra details other day, seems like it's not going to make it in time for the v0.10 release anyway.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/f7099udwg72dy1p/sgtmarkivfreedoommAP17.WAD

Angry Saint said:

Very good looking city level, Sergeant_Mark_IV!


Thanks.

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Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Well, I "finished" the new Map17.
I think it still needs more detail inside the cathedral and on the alleys, but gameplay-wise, it's pretty much finished. Gonna finish the extra details other day, seems like it's not going to make it in time for the v0.10 release anyway.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/f7099udwg72dy1p/sgtmarkivfreedoommAP17.WAD


Boo... I know Sergeant_Mark_IV may have had a few issues in the past on this forum, related to things that I'm not going to bring up at the moment, but he does appear to be making a good faith gesture in regards to participating in the Freedoom project, and contributing to it.

He's a good mapper, and I was secretly hoping that at least one of his maps would end up in 0.10. I'm not sure what version of Freedoom he used for his fork (the BD Starter Pack), but it was clearly an old version, and his improvements made it look quite impressive, even in its unfinished state. It was also quite fun, which is one of those "je ne sais quoi" things that should be in Freedoom.

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RjY said:

But I still think it would be better replaced entirely.

Hm'kay. :(

Regarding the red key, we could place it in the same room but above the console that is on the opposite side of the windows that you can peek through from the beginning. Then you could still see the red key early on and it would be released by lowering the console (which could in turn also unleash the Cacos).

Regarding the sparse weaponry, I agree, thing placement is still an issue in this map (that I haven't tackled yet). But I think a SSG with some shell packs early on and a CG in one the the secrets will already improve the experience a lot.

Hm?

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fabian said:

Hm?

I think what I would do is switch the red key and the rocket launcher. This also switches the location of the secret area. The hidden switch on the wall by the donut pillar is removed.

I will try to edit it myself and send you a patch, then you can see what I mean, it's probably easier than trying to explain in words...

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All right, this went well. Edited map, and obligatory demo here:

http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=85848619951279587594

changes:

Spoiler

weapons

- move chaingun to outside blue key building's (secret, locked) back entrance
- (don't think a supershotgun is needed -- no sufficiently nasty monsters)

route simplification

- red key and rocket launcher swapped
- red key now on donut pillar outside water pump building
- no need to make long and obscure backtrack from water pump building.
- cacodemons now teleport to donut pillar when switch approached.

rocket launcher secret

- rocket launcher visible in gloom on ledge, where red key used to be
- blocking bars changed to resemble columns of water, as a hint
- secret switch in the wall behind the donut pillar removes these columns
- water columns on pump machine also lower
- add a third lowering water column next to the switch in the rock

other fixes

- yellow key monster teleporter redesigned to deploy its payload faster

_____________


edit: added some lamps and made a pull request.

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I was playing through 0.10 Phase 1 (because I can, and it's a good common ground for complaints), and I just completed C2M5.

It's not a terrible map, but it is kinda maze-y, and I honestly had no clue what half the switches I flipped did (some where much more obvious than others). I also ended up missing a critical switch, and then ended up flipping 2-3 more switches that didn't actually let me go anywhere, and I had to backtrack to find the switch that is actually easy to bypass because there are multiple routes that go completely around it.

It's OK... but it could benefit from being made simpler, or at least from getting rid of all the extra paths and extra switches.

C2M9 has pits that you can't escape from... without IDCLIP. There are also huge parts of C2M9 that just plain suck. It's not a "fun" map. (Can I tweak parts of it and submit it to the WOOO 3 project?)

C2M6 has a "secret" exit that I missed because it's hidden a little too well. Maybe make it a little bit more obvious instead of expecting the player to hunt for it? Perhaps add more Exit signs so they can be seen as you walk past the entrance to the "exit area", which is what most people would do if they had no reason to think they needed to hunt for the exit. (Aside from that, it is an excellent map.) Also, there's one small part where the texture for "flowing blood" should be used, but a static texture is used instead.

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