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patricio

Anyone nervous about level design?

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I haven't played the ALPHA but I did watch the E3 footage. It was hard to tell from the footage but I am nervous about Doom's level design. I liked Doom 3 but my biggest gripe was the linear levels. One of the best parts about Doom 2 for me was exploring and being scared about what I might find. Same goes for Duke Nukem Forever and Duke 3-d. I was super disappointed when DNF was linear and had barely any exploration.

Can we please get some levels like tricks and traps or Area 51 from Duke Nukem. I will be super disappointed if the game is linear. I tried to research info on the level designers but couldn't find anything. Does anyone know if any of the Doom 1 and 2 level creators are working on Doom 4?

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I'm pretty sure most of the original Doom team are gone from id now.

Also, the alpha is purely MP, so you can't really compare the level design from that anyway since it's a bespoke multiplayer map.

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I'm pretty sure id Software won't make the same mistake again in a Doom game intended to relive the classic Doom. I'm looking at you Doom 3, you weren't anything like Doom.

Anyways, level design seems like an arena with locked doors, puzzling passageways and clues to exit the place you spawned in. All that adds an objective to progress through the map rather than actual arena (multiplayer is an exception).
That same progression from classic Doom is there... I can feel it.

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All evidence points toward exploratory design. You can tell from both levels in the E3 footage that the player could have gone any number of routes and experienced very different gameplay.

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The game will consist of exploration sections and arena sections.

So you'll get to a section that's fairly open and has multiple routes. An example would be the foundry section from E3. You'll have to figure out how to get to the next section from there, and you'll be encouraged to explore either to solve some type of puzzle or to find power-ups, new weapons, and new weapon mods.

But then once you've gotten past that section, you might get to an "arena", like with the big battle in Hell we saw at E3. Once you get there I doubt you'll be able to do much back-tracking. You'll probably have to defeat all the enemies and move on to the next section.

So I doubt each section will stay completely open for back-tracking like in Classic Doom, but it looks like there will still be plenty of exploration involved.

Also keep in mind that SnapMap allows the community to create all the exploration-driven maps they want, and you'll probably be playing those maps more than the campaign when all is said and done.

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Hmm...so I can't just run past all of them? Like speedrunning in classic Doom?
I hope that's not true!

Level designs are gonna rock anyway!

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ChickenOrBeef said:

The game will consist of exploration sections and arena sections.

So you'll get to a section that's fairly open and has multiple routes. An example would be the foundry section from E3. You'll have to figure out how to get to the next section from there, and you'll be encouraged to explore either to solve some type of puzzle or to find power-ups, new weapons, and new weapon mods.

But then once you've gotten past that section, you might get to an "arena", like with the big battle in Hell we saw at E3. Once you get there I doubt you'll be able to do much back-tracking. You'll probably have to defeat all the enemies and move on to the next section.

So I doubt each section will stay completely open for back-tracking like in Classic Doom, but it looks like there will still be plenty of exploration involved.

Also keep in mind that SnapMap allows the community to create all the exploration-driven maps they want, and you'll probably be playing those maps more than the campaign when all is said and done.


Exactly what I think

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I hope this "arena" concept will be pretty limited, which is to say, keep it minimal like Doom2 - The occasional Tower of Babel, Dead Simple or "baron room from tricks and traps" is fine, but gets really stale if overdone.

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By arenas, I mean like the one they showed in the Hell reveal: big open space with variations here and there.
And the industrial level: it couldn't be linear. Right in the first , you can see that Doomguy could go left, right, into that door, or jump over the gap instead of following the sound.

Also, modern shooters tend to have checkpoints each time with a loading sequence during gameplay(yes, I'm talking about Halo/Nova). Not a single checkpoint or "screen freezes to load the next part of the map" stuff. Plain simple:-
Doom-Want to get out? Figure it out yourself.
Halo-I will tell you what to do at every step and the map is straightforward.

Not saying Halo is bad, but sometimes I like to think about the map myself rather than game telling me about it.

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I'll say it.

Halo is bad.

Their map design, at least in the first games, was really awful. Someone found the copy/paste function and went hog wild.

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AirRaid said:

I'll say it.

Halo is bad.

Their map design, at least in the first games, was really awful. Someone found the copy/paste function and went hog wild.

Halo may be bad, but the story is cool. Especially the books(although I think they're just the game's campaign in words...).

I once read somewhere where a guy said that the first Halo games had maps that the developers just copied and pasted it. That guy wasn't you, but I'm sure that's what he said.

The only game i think is bad is SCP-087-B... Dont tell Regalis i said that.

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ChickenOrBeef said:

But then once you've gotten past that section, you might get to an "arena", like with the big battle in Hell we saw at E3. Once you get there I doubt you'll be able to do much back-tracking. You'll probably have to defeat all the enemies and move on to the next section.


It's no problem to include arena style sections and still give the player the opportunity to back-track later on. You just need to re-open both the entrance and exit door (or barrier) to the arena after the arena battle is finished.

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HavoX said:

As long as it's fun and playable, who cares about the level design?

I would imagine a lot of people, considering level design is a core part of making a game fun and playable.

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Tetzlaff said:

It's no problem to include arena style sections and still give the player the opportunity to back-track later on. You just need to re-open both the entrance and exit door (or barrier) to the arena after the arena battle is finished.


Yeah, but if you remember from the Hell demo, the player descended down some very long drops to get to the arena. So I don't know how you'd get back up without some type of elevator popping up after you defeat the enemies. That could be the case, so we'll see.

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ChickenOrBeef said:

Yeah, but if you remember from the Hell demo, the player descended down some very long drops to get to the arena. So I don't know how you'd get back up without some type of elevator popping up after you defeat the enemies. That could be the case, so we'll see.

That's also found in classic Doom. A big drop to start the fight, no going back.
I think its pretty cool though not go back, since we have to finish the campaign.
Speaking of the campaign, how long do you think it'll last? Like the total time taken?

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Voros said:

Speaking of the campaign, how long do you think it'll last? Like the total time taken?


I believe Marty said something along the lines of it being "sizable". Probably around 10 hours. Maybe closer to 15 like Doom 3.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind a short campaign at all if it was concise and repayable. After all, that's how the original game is.

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I wouldn't count on that too much, it feels like they're leaning pretty heavily on snapmap to lend replayability.

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Glaice said:

Arenas, as in what Painkiller games did? Bleh.

My biggest fear. Little areas that open up when monster ambushes are killed. I don't think the E3 footage exactly supports my fears, though.

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AirRaid said:

I wouldn't count on that too much, it feels like they're leaning pretty heavily on snapmap to lend replayability.


I think the campaign could be very repayable if these things are true:

1) Cinematics are minimal and don't interfere with gameplay often
2) Scripted sequences are kept to a minimum
3) There's a decent amount of exploration and secrets, so you may find new things on subsequent playthroughs
4) There's freedom on how to approach each combat encounter

And from everything we've read on this game, it seems like the campaign will be more or less along those lines. The biggest x-factor is how many scripted sequences iD sprinkles throughout the campaign for things like setting up the story, introducing puzzles, introducing new weapons and enemies, etc. I think that stuff will be there, but it still won't really interfere often enough to be annoying.

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You know what's funny? We've seen absolutely no evidence there even will be cinematics, other than the now ancient teaser trailer. I don't think id is going to be so ballsy as throw the player right into the game like Classic Doom (that would honestly be cheap and lame in this day and age), but my bet is the cinematics won't be very long. This is really making me wonder what role they'll play, and how each level will be divided up. Having one gigantic facility would be no fun.

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HavoX said:

As long as it's fun and playable, who cares about the level design?


Well, extremely restricted, linear level design surely is playable, but not much fun for me.

Piper Maru said:

Will you guys still play it if it's nothing but linear corridors and arenas?


I would be disappointed, but if the arenas are designed well I would still play it. Good arena battles, like in the first Serious Sam game, can be a lot of fun when you have enough space to move arround and multiple waves of attacking monsters.

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I really like the map from the Alpha. Lots of verticality and lots of nooks and crannies. Really well designed.

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