"Recruit" maps from existing projects?

[Blastfrog]

To fill in blank spots, why not dig around idgames for suitable maps? The Freedoom community could nominate a map, and then the author could be contacted for permission to donate it to Freedoom.

We already did this for E4, why not elsewhere?

[frithiof]

Maybe Sgt Mark IV would be willing to let some of the maps from his upcoming BD Starter Pack be used in Phase 2, or something.

Some of the maps were originally from Freedoom... (and as a bonus, they would all be Brutal Doom compatible)

[raymoohawk]

i think it would be better to contact mappers and see if they are willing to make new maps. to be honest i suspect people are hesitant to contribute because the sprite set is still unfinished so maybe we should focus on completing the resources for now

[Jimmy]

I'm gonna be totally wacko-jacko probably, and allow the re-use of any of my already-released maps in FreeDoom. Ergo, anything in Jenesis, Jiffy Bag, my speedmaps for TTV and ASS, and even Jenocide and Counterstoat for the DM maps, is all up for grabs if desired.

I actually enjoy looking at my maps with the FreeDoom texture set for some bizarre reason. :P

[Blastfrog]

That's really generous of you, Jimmy. Huge thanks! :)

frithiof said:

Some of the maps were originally from Freedoom... (and as a bonus, they would all be Brutal Doom compatible)

I don't know how heavily overhauled those versions are, but there were reasons the originals were cut from Freedoom.

raymoohawk said:

i think it would be better to contact mappers and see if they are willing to make new maps. to be honest i suspect people are hesitant to contribute because the sprite set is still unfinished so maybe we should focus on completing the resources for now

Maps have been neglected for too long, I think it's important to address replacing the crappier ones.

[MrFlibble]

This immediately reminded me of Shadow1013's vanilla episode. I wonder though if the authors' permissions for the PWADs have any legal effect comparable to actual licenses? For example, this one says

You MAY use this level as a base to build additional levels.
But do not claim you created this level. If you create a new
level based on this one, please credit the original author.
You may do whatever you want with this file. The author
will not accept any responsibility for problems caused with it.

Should this be taken as an equivalent of CC-BY (or a similar license)? In a purely theoretical example, if someone edits the map with the permission quoted above, is it eligible for submission to Freedoom (provided the original author is credited as per the terms of distribution)?

The question of level licensing has been brought up here already a couple of times:
https://www.doomworld.com/vb/freedoom/55468-freely-licensed-pwads/
https://www.doomworld.com/vb/freedoom/63857-other-free-content-doom-maps/

However, the points of licensing seem somewhat unclear unless the permissions unambiguously state that a map is released under a certain license (like GPL maps discussed in the threads above).

On another note, ComicMischief gave here permission to use this mapset in Freedoom. I'm not sure if any map from it has been included in the project?

[frithiof]

raymoohawk said:

i think it would be better to contact mappers and see if they are willing to make new maps. to be honest i suspect people are hesitant to contribute because the sprite set is still unfinished so maybe we should focus on completing the resources for now

Why not create a new thread on the 'WADs & Mods' forum, suggest a 'Doomworld Freedoom Megaproject Megawad' thing, and strongly suggest that people make vanilla and/or boom compatible wads that will eventually go towards the Freedoom Project, and have them create wads that are compatible with doom.wad and/or doom2.wad.

Tell them they will get full credit for their contributions (maybe have it set up so that their names will be visible at the load screens for the maps), and it's possible that some of them will feel like making some maps.

I would strongly recommend making the size of the maps the same "average" size that you saw in the original Doom and Doom 2 games. As an end user of Freedoom, I have to say that sometimes simplicity can actually be better at this point than complexity. Besides, wouldn't it be better to have a strong foundation to build upon?

Jimmy said:

I'm gonna be totally wacko-jacko probably, and allow the re-use of any of my already-released maps in FreeDoom. Ergo, anything in Jenesis, Jiffy Bag, my speedmaps for TTV and ASS, and even Jenocide and Counterstoat for the DM maps, is all up for grabs if desired.

I actually enjoy looking at my maps with the FreeDoom texture set for some bizarre reason. :P

Woah... things just got real.

[HavoX]

Jimmy said:

I'm gonna be totally wacko-jacko probably, and allow the re-use of any of my already-released maps in FreeDoom.

Are you really sure about this?

I know you're trying to be generous, but you worked real hard on making these, so at least give some thought into it beforehand. If you're absolutely certain about it, consider updating the .TXT files for your WADs allowing the use of your maps.

[Jimmy]

As far as I'm concerned I'm not "giving away" the time and effort I spent on those projects - the maps are done, and in their finalized form, or close to it, sitting snugly in the projects I made them for. (I hardly ever release anything to /idgames, erg. D:) I don't believe I'd have any objection to them getting re-used.

Of course I'm pretty custom-texture happy so the likelihood is they'll need to have their aesthetics played around with a bit but they'll be looking different under the FreeDoom assets anyway, so I'm fine with that. Issues will also arise from any Hexen format maps I've made, such as in Jenocide, which also feature Skulltag actors. I'm also fine with these getting converted to Doom format and being stripped of their custom material.

I'm wondering if anybody else in the community would feel the same way about donating their maps in this fashion? It's for a good cause.

[Wereknight]

I have at least 3 unfinished levels and one finished from far past. May to donate 'em for project.

[Archi]

What are requirements for a freedoom maps? Which maps aren't done and which maps should be removed by other? I haven't found any good information about this on subforum.

[MrFlibble]

Archi said:

Which maps aren't done and which maps should be removed by other?

There's a topic for this:
https://www.doomworld.com/vb/freedoom/84868-freedoom-maps-still-needed/

[Danfun64]

What are the requirements for Jiffy Bag? Can it be played in limit-removing ports like Crispy Doom, or do they require Boom, or MBF, or *insert ZDoom varient here*?

[Blastfrog]

Danfun64 said:

What are the requirements for Jiffy Bag? Can it be played in limit-removing ports like Crispy Doom, or do they require Boom, or MBF, or *insert ZDoom varient here*?

I'd guess Boom.

[Da Werecat]

It's a strange proposal, considering all the recent talk about a unique identity.

I think Freedoom should be less of a Frankenstein monster, not more.

[frithiof]

Da Werecat said:

It's a strange proposal, considering all the recent talk about a unique identity.

I think Freedoom should be less of a Frankenstein monster, not more.

Although... we could certainly do worse than to have Freedoom be a collection of some of the "best of the best" maps around.

And some of the new sprites, textures, and monsters actually kinda look better than the vanilla Doom ones.

[Jimmy]

Danfun64 said:

What are the requirements for Jiffy Bag? Can it be played in limit-removing ports like Crispy Doom, or do they require Boom, or MBF, or *insert ZDoom varient here*?

They're Boom-format maps utilising things like conveyor belts and MBF sky transfers, so Vanilla/limit-removing ports will probably not work with them. I recommend PrBoom+.

[Blastfrog]

Da Werecat said:

It's a strange proposal, considering all the recent talk about a unique identity.

I think Freedoom should be less of a Frankenstein monster, not more.

Maps are maps, it's better that we get good maps than keep the ancient crappy ones, regardless of their source.

I'd say the Frankenstein's monster comparison has more relevance in the art direction, which has been made more consistent in recent years. I think the next big step is to retexture the maps with brand new textures unrelated to the compat set.

[Danfun64]

Jimmy said:

They're Boom-format maps utilising things like conveyor belts and MBF sky transfers, so Vanilla/limit-removing ports will probably not work with them. I recommend PrBoom+.

Are sky transfers the only MBF feature used in these maps, or are there other features that prevent the maps from working correctly in boom?

While PrBoom+ is nice for single player, it's horrible for multiplayer. That's where Crispy Doom, Boom via DosBox, and MBF via DosBox come in.

(You may have noticed that I didn't mention "real" multiplayer ports...zandronum is just as bad as zdoom when it comes to demo compatibility, zdaemon is closed source, and odamex's demo protocol hasn't been finalized. Even then, none of them could be considered "standards" like vanilla, limit-removing, boom, MBF, and PrBoom+ are.)

[frithiof]

Danfun64 said:

Are sky transfers the only MBF feature used in these maps, or are there other features that prevent the maps from working correctly in boom?

While PrBoom+ is nice for single player, it's horrible for multiplayer. That's where Crispy Doom, Boom via DosBox, and MBF via DosBox come in.

(You may have noticed that I didn't mention "real" multiplayer ports...zandronum is just as bad as zdoom when it comes to demo compatibility, zdaemon is closed source, and odamex's demo protocol hasn't been finalized. Even then, none of them could be considered "standards" like vanilla, limit-removing, boom, MBF, and PrBoom+ are.)

What exactly is the point you are trying to make?

I'm going to be honest... most of that sounds like gibberish to me. I play most mods and maps with GZdoom because it just works (or Zdoom on the rare occasion when GZdoom doesn't work), and I occasionally use zandronum for the same reason, and mostly because it has the most players at any given time.

I don't use anything from DOS anymore because that stuff is 20+ years old, and generally incompatible with modern operating systems.

It just sounds weird when people talk about using old, outdated methods of playing Doom. (Using the original executables is one thing... but after a certain point, it's just weird. I mean, we do have Chocolate Doom.)

Are you trying to say that you like certain ports because you can use them to show off demos in multiplayer mode or something?

[HavoX]

frithiof said:

I don't use anything from DOS anymore because that stuff is 20+ years old, and generally incompatible with modern operating systems.

You mean you haven't tried DOSBox? Seriously?!

[frithiof]

HavoX said:

You mean you haven't tried DOSBox? Seriously?!

Why should I?

I was around in the 80's and 90's. I don't see any particular reason to use DOS when a lot of programs can do what DOS did a lot better.

I'm not going to install Windows 95 on my computer because I'm feeling nostalgic...

On a more serious note, why exactly would I want to use DOSBox to play Doom instead of using, say, GZdoom, which does a pretty good job of that? Or prBoom+?

VVVVV - What does any of this have to do with Freedoom? Is this the kind of nonsense that has prevented progress in the past?

[Danfun64]

Don't ask, but I have an obsession with standards and multiplayer demos. Zdoom (and *most* derivatives of it) doesn't have a standard demo recording format, the moment a new version of zdoom is released, you can't use that demo any more.

[Jimmy]

Danfun64 said:

Are sky transfers the only MBF feature used in these maps, or are there other features that prevent the maps from working correctly in boom?

As far as I know, the sky transfers are probably the only MBF thing. I thought Boom accepted those, though?

[Danfun64]

Apparently boom ignores them and just does regular skies. I could be wrong though.

[MrFlibble]

Sodaholic said:

I'd say the Frankenstein's monster comparison has more relevance in the art direction, which has been made more consistent in recent years. I think the next big step is to retexture the maps with brand new textures unrelated to the compat set.

Personally I don't mind if Freedoom uses maps not originally created for it. In fact, it would then be a truly crowdsourced project, and with such creative community this certainly means quality.

However, as far as unique identity is concerned, I believe that simply retexturing maps taken from other projects will not be enough. Take HacX for example. While it is essentially a Doom II TC, I tend to think of it as a separate game (albeit still derivative from Doom). Its uniqueness does not only lie in completely new art, or rebalanced weapons, monsters and items. I think that the main thing that makes HacX an independent game are the levels. Each level in HacX has its own very distinct, pronounced theme, emphasized by the use of detail, including textures, layout, props etc. Even within the first level, you have very recognizable areas like office building exterior, security room, offices, lab, some underground chemical processing facility, and a subway station. The you have a prison, some sort of geothermal station inside a volcano, cyberspace, a city level, Chinese/Japanese gardens and palaces etc. etc. Even the obligatory sewer level has memorable moments like the android assembly line.

This kind of level design is not only a great thing in and of itself, but it also serves as a meta device to narrate the plot in the absence of other means like mission briefings or cutscenes. Many Freedoom levels have a level of detail comparable to that of HacX, however the storyline is still pretty vague and the environments remain largely generic. I believe that to address this issue, texture/environment development should go hand in hand with level development, perhaps even to the point of mappers requesting resources for their work from the art department.

frithiof said:

I don't use anything from DOS anymore because that stuff is 20+ years old, and generally incompatible with modern operating systems.

It just sounds weird when people talk about using old, outdated methods of playing Doom. (Using the original executables is one thing... but after a certain point, it's just weird. I mean, we do have Chocolate Doom.)

Well, I use MBF with DOSBox, and there are people who still play on real DOS machines. In fact, an updated version of MBF was released rather recently that has been specifically optimized to work with real 486 hardware.

What I mean to say is that because some people use new ports and modern hardware, it doesn't mean those who don't should be entirely excluded from any consideration.

[Mechadon]

If you guys want some of my old maps, I'd be more than happy to contribute them. I have a couple that might be useful (some would require a bit of work to get compatible). I might be able to put in some work to convert them, but I'm not sure when that would happen; if someone else wanted to put in the work though, I'd be cool with that.

Dominion of Madness is an old Boom-compat speedmap with a hell theme. It's pretty simple visually but it uses stock textures. This one might be the most useful to the project.

My 32in24-14 contribution could also be useful (it's MAP29). This one would require more work to be compatible though. It uses custom textures, and its also has a higher difficulty curve.

Velocity001 is a really old ZDoom speedmap compilation where I contributed one map (Recycle or Die). It's a pretty bad map but has potential has a short n' sweet map with some work.

Lastly, I have these really, really old and unreleased Skulltag Community COOP maps. These probably wouldn't be nearly as useful as they are pretty large, have questionable gameplay, and make use of a lot of ZDoom features. But something might be salvageable from them...again, if someone wants to put in that work.

I also have some old scraps lying around, but most of them are unfinished DM/CTF layouts. So I don't know how useful those would be.

Danfun64 said:

Apparently boom ignores them and just does regular skies. I could be wrong though.

I believe this is indeed the case. It has been a while since I tested it, but the original Boom engine didn't crash when I was testing out MBF sky transfers for a project (but I don't have the best memory, so hey I could be wrong).

[frithiof]

I decided to play through some of the maps in Phase 2 again, and I appreciate the addition of the Jenesis map, and the tweaking of map05, but... map09 kinda stinks.

Can we replace that map with one of the donated maps?

[Gez]

The Doom engine basically ignores all unknown linedef types. This is different from unknown sector types which are only safe as long as the player doesn't get in.

PrBoom+ IIRC has working sky transfers in Boom complevels, so that might be the source of the misunderstanding.

[Danfun64]

Odd. Jenesis doesn't seem to work in Boom or MBF with freedoom2.wad; I get errors concerning "Column without a patch in texture DANGSIGN", as well as the same error for ESIGN01-ESIGN07.

What's the problem?