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fabian

About the idea of a Fork

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The recent discussion about creating a fork of Freedoom is somehow disturbing me. I have seen quite some forks come and go in the past ten years, successful ones (e.g. LibreOffice, X.org) and failed ones (e.g. LibAV, Wodim). Please note that maintaining a fork may mean more work and responsibility than you might currently expect, both of which could probably better get invested into the original project.

It seems to me that a general rule of thumb for creating a fork is that (a) you disagree with the current state and future direction of a project and (b) that you see no way to change the current project's developement other than forking it.

I fail to see how (b) applies to Freedoom, which has a very responsive upstream and features an open and transparent submission process (after all, it's histed on Github and follows its workflow, just like thousands of other successful open-source projects out there). I fail to see e.g. why "keeping the original texture set consistent with Doom's" should get in the way of adding new unique textures and using them throughout Freedoom's own maps.

Edit: What I believe will happen after the fork is that you will apply your ten favorite pet assets that were rejected from Freedoom for some reason. And then you will pretty quickly reach a point where you'll have to ask yourself "how do we proceed from here, what's next?".

The Freedoom project is currently asking this question. Heck, it is asking this question as long as I know this project. However, I have the feeling that there has never been a better point in time to find a consensus and proceed with combined productivity than now. ;)

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(b) can totally apply to freedoom if you think the way it is managed isn't what you'd like to see from the project. having a fork that had its own goals and -for instance- a more stricter content curation system and scrapping the goal of PWAD compatibility would very likely result in a much more high quality IWAD. However, the resources could still be shared between the projects, meaning progress made in either may end up progressing the other.

I don't think this is too disturbing, personally.

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Speaking as a bystander, I have to say I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments. forking Freedoom into seperate projects will only divide the number of assets (products, and producers of said products) in half. The crisis of Freedoom's future is in the way it has a management structure that's held together with masking tape. The appeal of creating a fork is that it has the potential of creating a sort of friendly rivalry between outspoken leaders of each fork and each will be able to organize without the entire community's objection. But the underlying issue is that Freedoom is severely lacking in a leader who has the final word. Someone to say "yes we can have this; no we can't have that" and finalize any potential disagreements. At this point, everyone's opinion has an equal weight and the arguments will continue to circulate until one party gives up.

My suggestion is perhaps to take a vote on who is most active, has the best interest in the project, and is least likely to use the project for personal gain. When a leader is elected, they can begin furthering the development of Freedoom by departmentalizing specialized groups to specific needs of the IWAD. sound/music, art/graphics, levels/gameplay, technical stuff, etc.

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40oz said:

forking Freedoom into seperate projects will only divide the number of assets (products, and producers of said products) in half.

This isn't true. a fork that appeals to people who wouldn't normally contribute to freedoom would mean a net increase in asset creation. Plus, as long as the free content license is kept, resources can be shared between the projects. This means zero loss in potential assets, and only net gain.

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Thank you for your reply.

However, I still fail to see how scraping PWAD compatibility could help you realize your goals with Freedoom? Or, asked the other way round, what feature would you like to see in Freedoom that is currently prevented by its PWAD compatibility?

I am afraid that Freedoom gets lost in the same obscure irrelevance as e.g. Hacx. Take the latter as an example. What do you have? As a PWAD it is a mediocre TC and as an IWAD it doesn't even serve as a drop-in replacement for the Vanilla IWADs. So, in the end it remains a mediocre PWAD disguised as an IWAD.

Freedoom, however, in its current form may also be considered a mediocre TC, but at least you can use it as an IWAD and play all your favorite PWADs with it. If you take away the latter facett, what remains is again a mediocre TC. But, since the license is free and contributions are welcome, you are at least able to improve the TC part.

So, yes, I strongly believe that both is possible: Turn Freedoom into a good TC that stands on its own and at the same time provide compatibility with the Vanilla IWADs for the sake of playing PWADs.

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fabian said:

So, yes, I strongly believe that both is possible: Turn Freedoom into a good TC that stands on its own and at the same time provide compatibility with the Vanilla IWADs for the sake of playing PWADs.

While I respect your motivations and involvement with the project, I've seen every suggestion which could possibly move the project in the first direction rejected over the entire life of the project so far. Certain people who shall remain unnamed always scream down everybody else and the proposals get abandoned or rejected. There's a little bit too much bazaar in the development model in my humble opinion. It's possible for something like this to be done *too* democratically, where the opinions of someone with absolutely no sense or understanding of game design ends up given equal or more weight than sound advice.

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Quasar said:

While I respect your motivations and involvement with the project, I've seen every suggestion which could possibly move the project in the first direction rejected over the entire life of the project so far.

It's never too late to change course and fix that, is it?

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Personally I would like a drop in DOOM2.WAD replacement that could work on DOOM2.EXE for that reason.

A benefit of being open source is the ability to be forked.

Over time the views of developers and projects change. Sometimes developers going their own way for awhile might be a good thing.

Right now if Freedoom does fork, I would not see it as a problem at all. Any forked projects would essentially be able to cherry pick from each other. Some forks might be short lived, however there are a wide variety of source ports which are freely available to cater to the various needs of people, some are for players and others are for technical reasons. The proposed forks so far from what I have read are not forking for a reason of hatred but of use and personal requirements.

We should be lucky that the discussion of forks is this rather than stuff such as "YOU SUCK I WANT YOU DEAD, I AM FORKING BECAUSE I HATE YOU AND YOUR CONTRIBUTED RESOURCES SUCK!" replied with "YEAH SCREW THAT CONTRIBUTOR, THEY CAN JUST DIE FOR ALL I CARE.". However sometimes developers of a project can hate the person forking because they forked.

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GhostlyDeath said:

We should be lucky that the discussion of forks is this rather than stuff such as "YOU SUCK I WANT YOU DEAD, I AM FORKING BECAUSE I HATE YOU AND YOUR CONTRIBUTED RESOURCES SUCK!" replied with "YEAH SCREW THAT CONTRIBUTOR, THEY CAN JUST DIE FOR ALL I CARE.". However sometimes developers of a project can hate the person forking because they forked.


Maybe the people that want to fork should go fork themselves?

I'm just kidding... ;)

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fabian said:

Freedoom, however, in its current form may also be considered a mediocre TC, but at least you can use it as an IWAD and play all your favorite PWADs with it. If you take away the latter facett, what remains is again a mediocre TC. But, since the license is free and contributions are welcome, you are at least able to improve the TC part.

So, yes, I strongly believe that both is possible: Turn Freedoom into a good TC that stands on its own and at the same time provide compatibility with the Vanilla IWADs for the sake of playing PWADs.

I agree completely.

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fabian said:

However, I still fail to see how scraping PWAD compatibility could help you realize your goals with Freedoom? Or, asked the other way round, what feature would you like to see in Freedoom that is currently prevented by its PWAD compatibility?

That is a good question, and I've been thinking about it for a while.

The new art direction brought by raymoohawk's work clearly goes beyond simply higher quality monster sprites and decorations. A true story has begun to develop itself from monster designs, with a potentially sophisticated plot and deep lore, to which Maz Hades contributed with the Zamanthyte concept. However, the attempt to implement some of these ideas in the form of Zam powerups (which were intended to represent the player rescuing Zamanthytes from captivity) was struck down as conflicting with the goal of PWAD compatibility.

If this alone is not a heavy argument enough, here's more:

On top of that, while Freedoom apparently strives for its own unique identity as a stand-alone game, the goal of PWAD compatibility inevitably limits it down to what is essentially a reskinned Doom with different levels. Sure, you can create a great mapset, add new textures and generally attain a degree of uniqueness within these limitations, but why restrict yourselves to this when you can do much more?

Consider the advantages of a fork not restricted by the demand to be PWAD compatible. If such fork is an IWAD only, then it will become possible to:
  • alter the behaviour of weapons, items and monsters via the DEHACKED lump
  • alter certain aspects of gameplay logic, e.g. make breakable decorations
  • change or replace the palette if desired
If the fork gets a dedicated executable, I suppose that it will also become possible, based on the code of other Doom engine games, to:
  • add an inventory system
  • add new items with different effects
  • add friendly NPCs with the possibility of conversations with them
  • add friendly combatant NPCs to assist the player
  • create hub levels/seamless transition back and forth between different levels
Additionally, I'm assuming that using a stand-alone executable should allow to also change gameplay logic in entirely new ways if desired. For example, I think it would be not impossible to allow the player to actually rescue captured Zamanthytes, either as an optional objective or the main target of a level/mission. raymoohawk asked if a fork would allow to add new monsters, which should be also possible with a stand-alone executable. There could be mission briefings and even in-game cutscenes if desired, and the levels could be changed from the simple "find keys and get to the exit" to actual missions with different objectives.

Of course, all of this are optional features that might be considered non-essential. However, my question here is why reject these possibilities simply for the sake of maintaining the status quo? Especially since, as far as I'm concerned, no one is proposing to drop the PWAD-compatible part of the project. There is absolutely no reason not to "backport" new assets into the PWAD-compatible IWADs when necessary.

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MrFlibble said:

However, the attempt to implement some of these ideas in the form of Zam powerups (which were intended to represent the player rescuing Zamanthytes from captivity) was struck down as conflicting with the goal of PWAD compatibility.


Honestly, I don't think they were struck down merely because they clashed with PWAD compatibility, but because they were just too cheesy in general. I don't think a little nurse lizard with a syringe surrounded by floating hearts would be a fitting powerup sprite in any other action game as well. I was one of those speaking up against the new sprites, and seriously, I thought "if this is the new direction Freedoom is going, then I am out".

MrFlibble said:

If this alone is not a heavy argument enough, here's more:


I don't think that changes in the game physics (i.e. the full bright monster sprite frames) should fixed in the game data, but in the engine. It's simply not the IWAD's job to fix these glitches.

Apart from this, I am fine with any changes to Freedoomguy's gloves or the muzzle flashes, as long as they are consistent within Freedoom itself. If custom weapons that are created for Doom are loaded in Freedoom and thus cause minor graphical glitches, I can live with that. That is, as long as we are only talking about minor graphical issues and everything else remains compatible else, i.e. the game remains playable.

MrFlibble said:

On top of that, while Freedoom apparently strives for its own unique identity as a stand-alone game, the goal of PWAD compatibility inevitably limits it down to what is essentially a reskinned Doom with different levels. Sure, you can create a great mapset, add new textures and generally attain a degree of uniqueness within these limitations, but why restrict yourselves to this when you can do much more?


Yes, and personally I am fine with that. I am sure you can create a great game from a reskinned Doom. You don't need to change the behaviour of monsters and weapons to get a great game.

MrFlibble said:

Consider the advantages of a fork not restricted by the demand to be PWAD compatible. If such fork is an IWAD only, then it will become possible to:

  • alter the behaviour of weapons, items and monsters via the DEHACKED lump
  • alter certain aspects of gameplay logic, e.g. make breakable decorations
  • change or replace the palette if desired


Again, I don't think it has ever been on Freedoom's agenda to change the game in more than graphical and audible ways. And again, while it is sure possible to create great TCs with these methods, the usage of the methods alone does not magically turn a TC into something great. Take for example Hacx, it uses lots of DEHACKED to change weapon and monster behaviour, but I still think it is far from a great stand-alone game.

MrFlibble said:

If the fork gets a dedicated executable, I suppose that it will also become possible, based on the code of other Doom engine games, to:

  • add an inventory system
  • add new items with different effects
  • add friendly NPCs with the possibility of conversations with them
  • add friendly combatant NPCs to assist the player
  • create hub levels/seamless transition back and forth between different levels


I think this is clearly out of the scope for Freedoom, nothing more or less.

MrFlibble said:

Additionally, I'm assuming that using a stand-alone executable should allow to also change gameplay logic in entirely new ways if desired. For example, I think it would be not impossible to allow the player to actually rescue captured Zamanthytes, either as an optional objective or the main target of a level/mission. raymoohawk asked if a fork would allow to add new monsters, which should be also possible with a stand-alone executable. There could be mission briefings and even in-game cutscenes if desired, and the levels could be changed from the simple "find keys and get to the exit" to actual missions with different objectives.


All of this has never been a goal of the Freedoom project, so there is no point in criticizing that this isn't possible. I think you are complaining that a project that makes all of this possible does not yet exists, but I think it is clearly wrong to criticize Freedoom for not deliviering it.

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IMHO (as someone who barely enters these forums but has been checking on this project for a long time), it would be cool to have a "FREEDOOM3.WAD" with NPCs, and a sort of plot and interesting campaign (I think Strife is the coolest singleplayer experience ever made based on the Doom engine and it's a pity there weren't more things like it).

But I think there's no reason why that should stop us from having a FREEDOOM2.WAD that is compatible with DOOM2 and allows us to play PWADs with it. You can make new monsters and experiments in a separate wad, as a sister project, without having to mess the original compatibility objectives of the original project.. I don't see how this would mean it would divide the effort and make us have "half the sprites" as some have stated, since we are talking about assets that can be easily shared between both projects. Freedoom1.wad already shares sprites with Freedoom2.wad, without having to split the whole project for it.

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i think a lot of people are underestimating what a good mapper can do. one of the most noteworthy things about going down is that it plays different to doom, despite not having any changes to gameplay, plus its one of several pwads that make really good use of level based story telling

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Argh. I've never even been involved in Freedoom and here I am responding like a yerk. :P

fabian said:

I am sure you can create a great game from a reskinned Doom. You don't need to change the behaviour of monsters and weapons to get a great game.

This is where I have to disagree. I've never been interested in Freedoom in the slightest because of this fact, since the notion that all assets have to be a 1:1 reskin of a Doom weapon or object, it is impossible to give the project any sort of identity other than "off-brand Doom." Though raymoo has a point that mapsets can do wonderful new things a la Going Down without touching the resources, it's still built on top of the core Doom mechanics and will always Feel Like Doom(tm).

This is my own opinion, of course, and there's still some disagreement among the folks that are pro-fork on whether or not to drop PWAD compatibility, but enough folks disagree with the PWAD compatibility goal that dismissing the dislike isn't going to solve anything.

fabian said:

And again, while it is sure possible to create great TCs with these methods, the usage of the methods alone does not magically turn a TC into something great. Take for example Hacx, it uses lots of DEHACKED to change weapon and monster behaviour, but I still think it is far from a great stand-alone game.

I'm not following why this keeps being brought up. Folks shouldn't use DEHACKED (or DECORATE or whatnot) to make a new IWAD because some other project did a poor job of it once? I don't get it.

Old-Hacx is indeed rather derpy, but there are much better examples out there. Action Doom 2, Hacx 2.0 (in progress), Adventures of Square, and the recent CyberShade immediately come to mind, and the latter three all have fast-paced gameplay while clearly having its own identity, art style, gameplay-feel, and whatnot.

[I'm of course a bit biased since I'm involved in two of them, but whatevs :P]

fabian said:

I think this is clearly out of the scope for Freedoom, nothing more or less.

Precisely. So we fork it. The existing Freedoom project stays Freedoom with all its existing goals, and the new project becomes a new thing with a new name that does new stuff. Problem solved. :P

I see little practical reason to oppose the split aside from the potential of efforts, but:

  • If resources for one become useful for another than you bet there'll be someone interested in porting it over.
  • I suspect most folk interested in the fork (myself included) are probably not that interested in Freedoom as-is in the first place (at least not without overhaul). The one key player at the moment which one side of the fork or the other might risk "losing" is raymoohawk, but see the above note regarding resource porting.


tl;dr: I can understand folks being disinterested in the fork, but IMO there is very little practical reason to oppose it outright.

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if the fork does get done and has the same license than i call dibs on the design of additional monsters, otherwise we'll end up with boring human variations

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fabian said:

It seems to me that a general rule of thumb for creating a fork is that (a) you disagree with the current state and future direction of a project and (b) that you see no way to change the current project's developement other than forking it.

I think the current state of affairs meets both these criteria.

fabian said:

However, I still fail to see how scraping PWAD compatibility could help you realize your goals with Freedoom? Or, asked the other way round, what feature would you like to see in Freedoom that is currently prevented by its PWAD compatibility?

Here's the thing, and I don't think we disagree on this aspect: I think we've basically achieved this goal. We can snapshot Freedoom as it currently exists, and people who care about the project can continue incrementally improving it (and it's clear that there are plenty of people who care about Freedoom, which is a good thing).

But the question is: if we've achieved that goal, what now? The obvious one answer is to make something better than (as you put it) "a mediocre TC". But here's the awkward question. Freedoom has taken 15 years to produce what we have now; why do we imagine that continuing on as normal is a good plan? Freedoom is the product of the culture that produced it.

Fabian, I know you mostly from our collaborations on Chocolate Doom, so I don't know how much you keep up to date with the Doom modding community. Have you played, for example, Back to Saturn X? I cite that because I think it's one of the most impressive megaWAD releases I've seen in recent years - really, really nice texturing, music, level design and gameplay. If you haven't played it then I really recommend you go and give it a try.

The developers of BTSX are right here in this thread and the other one telling us that we're doing things wrong - esselfortium and Xaser are two of the main devs. I think we should listen to them and above all, listen to their explanations for why they haven't contributed to Freedoom in the past. I don't know how long it took to make BTSX but I'm pretty sure it was less than 15 years. And BTSX is many things but "a mediocre TC" is not one of them.

On the flip side, most of the people I see here opposed to a fork are programmers. I understand why Freedoom in its current form is a project that appeals to programmers. I'm a programmer and I ran the project for a significant amount of time, probably setting much of the direction for the project as it exists today. But the fact is that for a project like this, you mostly need level authors, artists and musicians, not programmers.

In the other thread I described Freedoom as "an art project run by programmers". That's the key part that I think needs to change. The artists should be running the show and we, the programmers, should be offering up our talents to help them achieve their goals. I think a fork is probably the best way to do that.

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fraggle said:

Freedoom has taken 15 years to produce what we have now

That is not because of the nature of the Freedoom project -- if I recall correctly, a set of replacement textures were completed very quickly.

I think the way the project was managed is the main reason, plus a lack of buy-in from talented artists (which somewhat goes back to the leadership of the project, or lack thereof).

Projects like BTSX benefit from a small group of talented people who know each other quite well, and can work in a closed space where random people are not coming in to criticize every little thing or bog people down with questions, and there is someone with the final say on everything. Cathedral vs Bazaar.

I still don't get this talk of a "fork" though -- like some of the new assets are considered too good to be "wasted" on Freedoom and should be put to better use, is that it?

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andrewj said:

I still don't get this talk of a "fork" though -- like some of the new assets are considered too good to be "wasted" on Freedoom and should be put to better use, is that it?

To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever implied anything like that. The main dichotomy here is "PWAD compatibility" vs. "independent game". I completely agree with Xaser that

Xaser said:

since the notion that all [Freedoom] assets have to be a 1:1 reskin of a Doom weapon or object, it is impossible to give the project any sort of identity other than "off-brand Doom." Though raymoo has a point that mapsets can do wonderful new things a la Going Down without touching the resources, it's still built on top of the core Doom mechanics and will always Feel Like Doom(tm).

Don't get me wrong, I'm in the "PWAD-compatible" camp myself because I mostly use Freedoom for exactly that purpose. However, I got the impression that the creative drive behind the new monster concepts is getting restricted with the PWAD compatibility goal. At this point, the project can very well go beyond Doom to become a truly unique game of its own (what exactly it is going to be is another question). I believe there is no reason to reject the possible benefits of creating a fork as outlined by esselfortium, or at least consider them before doing so.

Also I think it needs to be emphasised yet again that "dropping PWAD compatibility" does not mean that Freedoom will become PWAD-incompatible in its entirety. Quite the contrary, the split is intended to do exactly the opposite - keep compatibility while removing some restraints for further development of game concepts. Nor does the idea of a fork imply in any way that Freedoom in its current state is somehow "inferior".

I was thinking, whatever the implementation, Freedoom's identity as a game will probably depend on its story and the levels that narrate it. So maybe the focus needs to shift, for now, to developing a more consistent, detailed plot, and a corresponding set of levels to reflect it? Once the story is established, it would serve as a base for further development/enhancement, and the decision on whether to implement extra features by moving to a custom version of the engine would come naturally if the game itself demands it?

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Well, there is nothing saying that you must choose on or the other. You can choose both!

The vanilla camp can get their drop in replacement IWAD so they can play with DOOM.EXE/DOOM2.EXE/TNT.EXE/PLUTONIA.EXE with 4 very compatible IWADs.

And the unique mod group can have say Boom formatted maps with unique level design and some gameplay changes with DeHackEd.

Then everyone is happy! yay!

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GhostlyDeath said:

Well, there is nothing saying that you must choose on or the other. You can choose both!


This is possibly the smartest thing to say about the idea. A fork doesn't represent splitting the community: it can merely resolve some artistic direction issues that can't be resolved in Freedoom itself. The projects can even be mutually beneficial! Share assets between them as necessary. (I would even pitch in for technical maintenence if a fork desires to keep the tree structure of Freedoom)

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Xaser said:

Precisely. So we fork it. The existing Freedoom project stays Freedoom with all its existing goals, and the new project becomes a new thing with a new name that does new stuff. Problem solved. :P

I see. I have mistaken the discussion about the fork as kind of ripping the project out of the current maintainers' hands screaming "you are doing it wrong!" Apparently, I was mistaken and now I understand your incentives for the fork. Thank you!

fraggle said:

Fabian, I know you mostly from our collaborations on Chocolate Doom, so I don't know how much you keep up to date with the Doom modding community. Have you played, for example, Back to Saturn X? I cite that because I think it's one of the most impressive megaWAD releases I've seen in recent years - really, really nice texturing, music, level design and gameplay. If you haven't played it then I really recommend you go and give it a try.


Yes, I did play BTSX and I agree with you that it is one of the most impresive and enjoyable works of Doom modding that I have ever tried. However, I don't see how this example should relate to the fork? If BTSX shows one thing then that it is possible to create a unique, enjoyable, high-quality Doom-based action game with its own identify that merely uses Vanilla Doom resources (granted, translated to a new palette in this case), some good new music, a great texture set and some well-crafted maps. It does not necessarily need new monsters, new weapons and all this stuff to deliver and BTSX cleary proofs this. Turn this into an IWAD and you have what I think a PWAD-compatible Freedoom should turn into.

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One thing I'm slightly concerned about is that it might split the player-base outside of the community and diminish the main branch's popularity. I'm not referring to players that weren't interested in Freedoom in the first place.

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Sodaholic said:

One thing I'm slightly concerned about is that it might split the player-base outside of the community and diminish the main branch's popularity.

I don't feel any real risk of that happening -- perhaps because I see Freedoom's main purpose as providing an IWAD for pwad compatibility, and the fork will not be providing that (with all its leeway to change stuff, and possibly using or requiring the GLOOME engine).

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Require the GLOOME engine? Well, say goodbye to demo compatibility. ZDoom 2.X.X never really had good demo compatibility.

Perhaps you can use Boom or MBF features, or as a last resort, Odamex, for the proposed fork. Please don't make something that requires a ZDoom 2.X.X based engine.

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Danfun64 said:

Please don't make something that requires a ZDoom 2.X.X based engine.


But what about Brutal Doom compatibility?!

:P

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I said that I don't want the fork itself to require ZDoom 2.X.X. What you are talking about is different. You can have Brutal Doom compatibility without putting the code into the Freedoom fork. Besides, Brutal Doom isn't "free" to begin with. If the Brutal Doom modders want to implement compatibility to Freedoom or the proposed fork, they are free to do so.

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Danfun64 said:

Require the GLOOME engine? Well, say goodbye to demo compatibility. ZDoom 2.X.X never really had good demo compatibility.

Perhaps you can use Boom or MBF features, or as a last resort, Odamex, for the proposed fork. Please don't make something that requires a ZDoom 2.X.X based engine.

Neither of the other options you listed are engines for building standalone games with, which would be the primary goal of the fork.

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@esselfortium: So are you saying that it's impossible for the proposed fork to have both standalone-ness and a stable, future-proof demo system like any format that PrBoom+ supports?

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