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yoni0505

How would you improve Doom?

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roadworx said:

So you want ScoreDoom?


Basically yes. If ScoreDoom was for the stable build of GZDoom 1.8 that'd be great.... or if ScoreDoom just had the monsters that were separate from the mod itself and worked with vanilla Doom; that'd also be pretty great IMHO.

I think a demon randomizer + different coloured demons would be pretty fucking cool, because it'd be a lot like Diablo. That plus the demon deaths varying between mirrored and unmirrored death animations would add some variety IMHO. =)

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DoomzRules said:

I think a demon randomizer + different colored demons would be pretty fucking cool, because it'd be a lot like Diablo.


Not sure about actual randomization, but for different coloured monsters, look no further.

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AD_79 said:

Not sure about actual randomization, but for different coloured monsters, look no further.


That's great. Just what I'm looking for. Only thing I wish was added was some Heretic and Hexen monsters sparingly, as well as some Realm667 monsters.... =)

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I'd love varied melee and projectile attacks.

Even though there's a certain stigma with Brutal Doom it seems...I liked what Mark did to the monsters. I'll go over each here, and inckude anything else I think would be cool.

-Former Humans (minus chaingunner)
I liked how they were able to roll out of the way of rockets, chaingun, and BFG blasts. Made the game more challenging.

-Chaingunner
They seemed to have a higher rate of fire.

-Imp
They had a higher rate of fire and had a leaping melee attack. I think it would have been cool if they were able to rapidfire their ranged attack, two handed style.

-Pinky
Fine as is.

-Spectre
I kiked the brutal version. All you saw were a pair of glowing eyes darting back and forth. I thought that was creepy and awesome.

-Cacodemon
BD had faster ranged attacks. I think it'd be cool if they had a telekinetic attack as well, given their large craniums. Maybe a loud roar which can give a brief melee attack boost to nearby enemies...kind of like a warcry to increase the morale of the other hellspawn.

-Pain Elemental
I think this one is a given. Some kind of melee attack. Also, when they die, make the accompanying explosion damaging.

-Lost Souls
Make them smarter. I get annoyed when an otherwise challenging map becomes cluttered by infighting lost souls acting like retards trying to hump a doorknob.

-Revenant
Add faster non homing rockets.

-Mancubus
Add melee.

-Arachnotron
Give them the ability to climb walls and ceilings.

-Archvile
Add some kind of manic clawing melee.

-Hellknight/Baron of Hell
Ranged attack variance, multiple fireballs at once, give barons the ability to resurrect fallen Hellknights.

-Cyberdemon
Stomp melee. Rocket firing pattern variance, ability to lead target or occasionally have a homing rocket.

-Spider Mastermind
Stomping melee, ability to destroy obstacles.

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Honestly, I doubt I'd have the ability to improve on it, because any idea I could come up with could easily turn out to be to the detriment of someone else's favorite aspect or quirk of the original game.

But here are a few of those ideas just for shits and giggles, or perhaps to inspire some of the creative people in the community:

1. Different ammo types for pistol and chaingun - turn the pistol into a weak-but-fast-firing "railgun"-type weapon that goes through multiple enemies (but does roughly the same damage to each enemy struck as it does now).
Add engine noise to the chaingun to make it feel a little more like a badass minigun.

And on that note, give the plasma gun and the BFG 9000 different ammo types as well, just for good measure.

2. Make it possible to saw sideways with the chainsaw and to visibly cut enemies in half in multiple ways, but otherwise make it function the same i.e. do same damage per tic, latch onto enemies it slices into.
Maybe give it a different blood-spatter effect and make it more of a blood-spraying effect to make it even more unique.

3. This one's probably going to get me a ton of disagreements (and all valid ones too), but I'd like the map design updated to be more in line with something like the Build Engine games, i.e. have locations that feel like actual locations (Command Center that looks like some kind of command center), but still maintain maze-like design and exploration.
Ideally, make it so futuristic looking that it doesn't look much like any locations we know today, but it still feels like each room serves a purpose that we might be able to guess or even recognize easily.

4. This one is closely related to '3': Somehow infuse more "story" in the level design, while keeping it extremely minimalistic. For example, there's a trail of blood that when you follow it will lead to a scientist's corpse in front of a bulkhead door and a switch. The switch closes and locks the bulkhead door, implying that a badly wounded scientist struggled to drag himself up to the bulkhead door in an attempt to seal the place, but died just before reaching it.

On that same note, invent a better backstory explanation for why the player is the last survivor and only equipped with a basic side-arm at the start. (Oblviously, I fail at this since I don't have a such super well-written explanation on hand to suggest for this :P ).

5. Have mission objectives that require you to actually figure shit out for yourself, while not making it too much of a "point-and-click Adventure Game" level of puzzle difficulty, but still making it non hand-holding.

A loose example could be to re-route power to some central computer system thingy that would then be able to give you more intel on where shit's going down. You have to find the power re-rout stations and then figure out where to re-rout power, making you chose from several options which sub-systems to deactivate.
You could kill the lights, but then you'd have to fight in the dark. Deactivating some other system could result in sections being flooded with green goo etc.

-

I'm sure if I dedicated a lot more thought and time to this, I could write an extensive document, but these are some of the ideas I could think up off the top of my head.

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dsm said:

1. Different ammo types for pistol and chaingun - turn the pistol into a weak-but-fast-firing "railgun"-type weapon that goes through multiple enemies (but does roughly the same damage to each enemy struck as it does now).
Add engine noise to the chaingun to make it feel a little more like a badass minigun.

And on that note, give the plasma gun and the BFG 9000 different ammo types as well, just for good measure.

you have seen my previous posts and this https://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/87217-separate-ammo-v1-1-for-zdoom/ thread, right?

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It would be cool to give the chainsaw its own fuel ammo so it makes people use it more wisely.

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In keeping with the idea of not wanting to add much extra complexity, I would prefer it if the mancubus had two different firing patterns and chose which one at random --- just like the way revenants fire either homing or ordinary missiles.

It took me far too long to learn the mancubus's firing pattern but once I did the monster became a much less scary enemy, which was disappointing.

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Avoozl said:

It would be cool to give the chainsaw its own fuel ammo so it makes people use it more wisely.


It's a pretty niche/gimmick weapon as it is, if it also had finite fuel, nobody would use it, not even for cheesy cornered Pinky/Spectre massacre battles.

If it was significantly more powerful than what it is now however, e.g. 3x, giving you a chance of killing a Revenant or Cacodemon in 1-1.5 seconds, then maybe. I always felt it was quite underpowered, compared to a real one.

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Weapons

The chainsaw should do more damage
The chaingun should hold more ammo
The regular and super shotgun should be more closely balanced
The PR sound could be more subtle
The way the BFG works could be less obscure

Monsters

demons melee attack should have a higher chance of success
Lost souls would benefit from lower HP and not in fight with each other
Cacos pain chance is a little too high
PEs need a melee attack
I'd personally have a larger turning curve on revs homing missiles
Spiderdemons could do with an instant death melee so it can't get stuck against an imp and scratched to death!

I'm not as fussy about the balance in Doom as this makes it look!

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MetroidJunkie said:

Imagine a form of the Shotgun Sargent with the Super Shotgun, Doom II (and things based on it) exclusive of course but imagine running into one at close range. Perhaps the one mercy is that, since the Super Shotgun is so much worse at distance due to the spread, it's only up close that you have to worry. Almost like a very powerful melee monster.


They had that in Psycbophobia and it kicked ass.

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@purist: Nice ideas overall, I think Doom would work great that way. How exactly would you suggest to improve the "chance of success" of Pinky Demon's attack, though? Deal damage sooner? Increase melee damage range? Walk towards the player while preparing to bite and the player getting out of range?

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I would create a trigger-lock of sorts for the rocket launcher. We've all fired rockets into walls directly in front of us or next to us, usually as a result of speedrunning and strafing close to a wall, or perhaps doing a peak-a-boo style attack of some monsters and having a rocket clip a wall. In a 'real-world' situation, no one is firing a rocket into a wall in front of themselves.

It would be nice to create some special lock that would prevent the rocket launcher from firing in the event that the rocket might directly hit or clip a wall if it's within a certain distance from you.

**EDIT**
Also, it seems ridiculous that lost souls can block your path given their small size. Doomguy should be able to run past them easily. Going back to the 'real-world' situation, it would seem that Doomguy could easily swat them out of the way. Maybe this should be another improvement in future source ports.

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That would actually harm diversity in a way because it makes the Shotgun worthless next to the Super Shotgun. Being viable at longer ranges is the only reason to use it since the Super Shotgun gets you more bang for your buck, literally.

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RobinSena said:

Also, it seems ridiculous that lost souls can block your path given their small size. Doomguy should be able to run past them easily. Going back to the 'real-world' situation, it would seem that Doomguy could easily swat them out of the way. Maybe this should be another improvement in future source ports.

I love mods which give the ability to push objects out if the way, for example the barrels in BD. It would be cool to see this applied to list souls!

Sans editing the BFG, I really like purist's suggestions as well.

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Different ammo types for pistol/chaingun and plasma/BFG.
Make the pistol a magnum-type ranged weapon and remove chaingun sniping.
Make monsters a bit more mobile (kind of like how imps jump around and such in new Doom)

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A few more variants of the already pre-existing demons...

As well as gorier deaths for the demons.... taking cues from Diablo? Yes, yes I am. I'd love to see an Imp fall over and all its organs are just splaying out.... just beautiful.... =D

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Maybe mouse-look? It wouldn't look as smooth, it would more resemble Duke 3D's, but I noticed after I turned off mouse looking for GZDoom that there are moments that are straight up unfair with enemies able to pelt you on ledges while you have to rely on luck that the auto-aim will swing in your favor. Especially aggravating with chaingun commandos.

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scifista42 said:

@purist: Nice ideas overall, I think Doom would work great that way. How exactly would you suggest to improve the "chance of success" of Pinky Demon's attack, though? Deal damage sooner? Increase melee damage range? Walk towards the player while preparing to bite and the player getting out of range?


Thanks. I guess increasing the range would be best as they're too easy to avoid as they are.

It would be fun to see if all the changes work well together. I'd end up back to the original game though!

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I would have more AI states rather then deaf and not deaf. I'd like to see an aggressive state, where the monster is already aware of you once you're in the map.(edit) someone else said it but patroling ai would be sweet, and a lazy ai that will stop chasing you at a certain point.(edit#2) also it would be cool if we had classifications for blocking, so we could restrict some monsters but let others run wild within the same area.

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Alternating deaths for the demons that alternate between mirrored and unmirrored versions of deaths and XDeaths.

As well as variants of already pre-existing demons.

I.E

An imp would have four or more variants.

The goblin (a green imp without spikes and a slightly elongated nose, does a bit higher damage, but has lower HP than the Imp.)

The sprite (a purple imp without spikes, has wings and can levitate/fly like a Cacodemon, has extremely small HP, but more than made up for with high damage output. Can be a real fucker sometimes.)

The hobgoblin (a yellow imp with spikes and blue eyes, shoots green fireballs, has high HP, but low damage output. Can be a bit of a nuisance at times.)

The hellwalker (a black and red imp that shoots out multicolored fireballs, has high HP and high damage output. A real troublemaker that can also appear invisible as well.)

That's just a bit of a small concept I had mentally while running through Doom. Is it inspired by Torchlight and Diablo? Quite a bit actually... =P

I just think it would be nice if there were demon variants like that and so on. =)

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When I heard the name "hell walker", I thought it would have the ability to run on walls...then again, not sure how that will work on Doom's 2.5d engine.

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^ I imagine it theoretically possible for a thing to "lock itself" onto a particular linedef - specifically either its upper or lower or middle part - and onto a particular height above/below the respective part's texture-offset-defining plane according to the linedef's unpegging - that would "realistically" solve climbing on sides of moving lifts or doors etc, as long as the linedef was properly "realistically" pegged. In other words, it would be guaranteed that the climbing thing would move along with the texture on the linedef it was climbing on, if the texture was moving due to sector movement.

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Danfun64 said:

When I heard the name "hell walker", I thought it would have the ability to run on walls...then again, not sure how that will work on Doom's 2.5d engine.


To be honest, I chose the name Hellwalker because Shadow Walker would sound too generic....

Hellwalker makes it sounds cool and stuff... to be honest it's supposed to be like a black imp with red stripes that can go invisible at anytime (sorta like a Spectre in a way.)

=3

It would also be giant as well. So there's that. I mean imagine it being the size of a Cyberdemon.... and it can summon other imps. That'd be pretty scary to encounter IMHO.

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MrGlide said:

I would have more AI states rather then deaf and not deaf. I'd like to see an aggressive state, where the monster is already aware of you once you're in the map.(edit) someone else said it but patroling ai would be sweet, and a lazy ai that will stop chasing you at a certain point.(edit#2) also it would be cool if we had classifications for blocking, so we could restrict some monsters but let others run wild within the same area.


My favorite flag would be "drunk" -- monsters with this flag would fire at the player as if he were partially invisible. Mixing them into setups with non-drunk monsters would force the player to rely more on actual dodging than patterned movement.

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