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PjSpartacus

Question regarding speed running morals/rules

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Ive recently been working on a difficult Non-TAS UV-Speed run for ep1 of Speed of Doom...

The run is lengthy and requires a glide on map 5 for not only speed but survival in general. I haven't been playing long enough to pull off glides effectively so i'm forced to turn on mouse vertical sensitivity before the glide in mid-run. It would be impossible for me to survive playing on those mouse settings. In doing so I would be sacrificing time but survival plays a more important role than sheer speed in the long run. I'm curious to know one's opinion on the matter. Is this unethical in the doom speed running community? Suggestions?

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I don't know what type of glide you are doing, but I assume it's not something crazy hard. In that case they can be done without vertical mouse movement, though you probably won't find much detailed explanation anywhere for how that works.

I also don't think vertical mouse movement is that much of a problem for movement, as I was looking into it for 30ev recently. Of course that's just my experience with cndoom sourceport.

I don't like it, mostly because it's a prboom+ feature to pause and change settings mid run afaik. It's more the part of pausing the game without knowing it was done that bothers me. Anyways, I wouldn't blame anyone for not bothering to put time to look into it, but it is possible to do without vertical mouse movement.

Edit: It's just a west directed guided glide? In that case does it even make a difference? It's very easy without vertical mouse movement.

Edit2: Both the glides in j4rio's scythe 2 run are south directed guided glides, both these type of glides take 1 second once you've found the right angle which you would have to do with vertical mouse movement anyway.

So really it's just a matter of learning how it's done... just face straight forward with the gap to your left, hold strafe on and use turn left with mouse with as small speed as you can after you have moved all the way back. I thought it was west directed guideless glides for a moment, in which case vertical mouse movement actually helps.

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For me glide to the side works best,
even easier than vert mouse forward glide.

Turn to the right angle, press "strafe on" and slowly move mouse.
100% reliable, but can take several seconds in the worst case.
It's possible even without strafe on!

sd05o.zip

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Thanks for link. I agree it personally feels really uncool and dirty to stop mid run and change the menu settings, even if it is acceptable it isn't by my standards. Zero if it's a simple glide than ill give it more practice. It takes me less than 5 secs to get it down with Vert on. Maybe I just need to learn how to do it without vert on. Ill give it some more practice and fiddling.

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Thx Grump that looks super easy. I think my problem is with my configuration and just the way I taught myself in general. When I strafe I use the right mouse button it automatically pushes you forward but also allows you to look left and right while holding it down. When I turn strafe on through the keyboard it locks me out of being able to look left and right. Am I configured wrong? Am I suppose get the angle correct then turn strafe on and off until I get the correct angle? I'm missing something simple here...
Vert on allows me to move forward slowly while adjusting the angle to squeeze through.

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1. Go to the corner.
2. Get right angle. There are actually two angles that work.
3. Press and hold "Strafe on".
4. Move mouse right slowly.

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ZeroMaster010 said:

It's more the part of pausing the game without knowing it was done that bothers me.


That's doable in vanilla as far as I know.

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j4rio said:

That's doable in vanilla as far as I know.


If you make any key inputs while Vanilla-DOOM is paused your demo will desync as I've had this happen before with my run on P218, unless Chocolate-DOOM is slightly different from Vanilla-DOOM in that regard.

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I remember using pauses with esc while recording in dosbox, haven't noticed any desynces.

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With using CNDoom sourceport (well it's not dos, so let me know if it that matters), demo recording and playing on ep4 of ultimate doom for example I get desync by simply hitting ESC twice to open and close menu. I tried with the pause button itself and it doesn't desync, but also shows that the demo was paused when playing it back. When using PrBoom+ I can hit ESC, come back at any point and resume and the demo should not show any indication that it was paused (afaik, please let me know if it is possible), and of course it doesn't desync.

Edit:

j4rio said:

I remember using pauses with esc while recording in dosbox, haven't noticed any desynces.


I will look into dosbox instead of cndoom then.

Edit2: desynced for me in dosbox if I hit ESC twice, so I don't know how it's done. Either way I don't care too much even if it is possible in vanilla, it should still be avoided. I have noticed a really huge advantage for a certain movie run with prboom abusing ESC, not to mention simply pausing the game to look where monsters are going to react kind of like slow mo would be pushing it way too far. I don't care if it's used when it's mentioned in the .txt that it has been used.

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It was quite a while ago, I may be wrong. Also, there may also be a possibility to set a button in those ports that brings up that menu which asks for pressing y/n to quit that may be alternative to pauses. Also, the time during which pause button is pressed can be cut off from demo directly without causing desynces.

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Alright, I'll assume it's not just some prboom thing then, it's maybe just a bit easier to do in prboom.

Edit: Oh and just to clarify, I would never consider it a moral\ethical problem when someone pauses a demo to take a phonecall in the middle of a 1 hour tyson IL or something like that, but changing settings, or worse using it like some sort of slow-mo tool etc should be mentioned in the .txt file.

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I don't have any issue with setting changes mid-run, either. I don't do it, I haven't done a run where I'd really want or need to, I also play with vertmouse all the time so glides wouldn't be an issue on that regard. I also very frequently pause demo recordings to check messages on skype or other services, change songs I'm listening to in the background, etc, and I don't see how that would be an issue at all (I'm not saying anyone says it is, but just for the sake of discussion, I suppose).

Pausing over and over is abusable for sure, but I highly doubt somebody would abuse it in this community to begin with.

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I really can't see an instance on how could pausing be abusable other than changing mouse settings. If anything, pausing in the middle of action would most likely screw with imputs so I personally prefer actively avoiding pausing whenever possible, because it completely throws off concentration.

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Pausing to see where a revenant is and if they are about to attack, move left\right etc while you are trying to hit with an SSG would make it easy to land every shot. During 30ev I've died twice to the cyberdemon on map 18, simply pausing to see where he is going would make it impossible to die. I could make a long list, but I agree with cyberdemon531 that it's unlikely that somebody is abusing it, so whatever.

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The drastic change of pace between pauses, possibility of eaten imputs and loss of momentum makes trying to solve those scenarios like that extremely counter-productive. That tnt18 cyb is just about the last place I'd want to use pause at.

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ZeroMaster010 said:

I have noticed a really huge advantage for a certain movie run with prboom abusing ESC

Is it fine if in movies settings are modified during intermissions?

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Ancalagon said:

Is it fine if in movies settings are modified during intermissions?


I was reffering to something that would make 30uv or 30pl about 10x as easy to do and should save time every attempt, in which case has nothing to do with changing settings mid run, but abusing pause in a whole different way to make things easier.

I don't care about the map 05 trick if that's what you're asking, which can also be done without vertical mouse movement, but since it's a bit harder to do than with vertical mouse movement I won't bother with the details here.

And as for j4rio, you clearly don't know what you are talking about.

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Ashstrodamus said:

I never pause. Phone ringing?....Can wait. I also don't use cheat ass HUDs like some people......Hmmmmm.

Cheat? Advantage hud is cheat? AYFKM? I guess I'm too old for such discussion but i hope using automap isn't cheat for now.

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ZeroMaster010 said:

And as for j4rio, you clearly don't know what you are talking about.


That's mutual feeling. You're mostly using cndoom which prevents pausing, so I'd say you're only theorycrafting.

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Vanilla pausing was only possible on Win98 by tasking away. That froze the game reliably, but of course you couldn't do anything with it. Maybe adjust something mechanically, but no one had mice like that back then, heh.

As for my personal experience, pausing severely cripples my game focus. If I pause during a FDA, I usually die pretty soon afterwards. There's an extra dose of self-awareness that trips me up. This could be highly personal, of course.

ZeroMaster010 said:

I was reffering to something that would make 30uv or 30pl about 10x as easy to do and should save time every attempt, in which case has nothing to do with changing settings mid run, but abusing pause in a whole different way to make things easier.

Uh, are you going to leave that just hanging in the air?

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Well here's a certain trick on chasm (done in prboom) that terrifies me when I did 30uv, almost as much as 10 runs died falling into the pit... with a simple "ESC" + "SR50" + "ESC" there's no problem.

Pausing to think about my position\speed on several maps would make things a lot easier, map 07 rocket jump I would never have to fail SR50 and I can spam pause to time the rocket, map 13 keygrab, map 17 skip to YK, map 29 RJ I would never lose time because I missed 3 inputs at the same time.

Plutonia there is for example map 14 yellow key grab, it's so easy to piss away a run by simply missing it, with "pause" it's impossible to fail. Using Pause to time the arch vile better on map 18, check if the hitscanners are going to block your vile jump on map 17 (fun way to lose a run)... this list can get really long.

I personally consider it ok to pause for reasons that aren't going to affect your run, even changing settings, but does anyone think that what I described above is in anyway fine to do and not just outright cheating?

Edit: Or how about that 1 time I failed to use MF50 + Fire at the same time at IoS and got 20:06 instead of 19:53 in doom 2? "Hey, I can do it 99% of the time, I'm sure nobody would care if I just "pause" for a slight moment to make this easy" It's very easy to think like that, and it is not ok.

chasm.zip

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I'm sure pausing to make things easier to line up is a possibility, but as I said before, I highly doubt anybody would actually do that maliciously.

ExclusiveAlias said:

I think we can all do with a minute amount of marijuana. My treat.

Ya sure, hook me up, brother.

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Cyberdemon531 said:

I'm sure pausing to make things easier to line up is a possibility, but as I said before, I highly doubt anybody would actually do that maliciously.


But if you don't draw a line somewhere, how can people just know what is considered cheating and what not? Someone might exploit the pause just because the thought it is okay because it is okay to change the settings during run by pausing.

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Azuruish said:

Cheat? Advantage hud is cheat? AYFKM? I guess I'm too old for such discussion but i hope using automap isn't cheat for now.

Don't take me too serious. I was kinda 50/50 on what I said. I do think that UV-Max should be rooted in the original HUD, but I'm not totally against having the monster killed ratio on the screen. But think about automap and it would at least take a second to check it. Wasn't trying to ruffle any feather, just too much alcohol yesterday.

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