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Job

Abstract/Surreal Environments Versus Realistic?

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The original Doom and Doom 2 levels, although trying to depict "real" locations, never really pulled it off. In some cases, because our only experience with starbases would be from movies or pop culture, it was largely open to interpretation. In addition to that, the stock Doom textures don't necessarily lend themselves well to realism. That's why I'd have to say that Doom's use of exaggerated, meandering geometry and colorful, unusual textures is far better suited to create an abstract depiction of real places. There's something haunting about being in a place that could be real, but is so perverted and far-removed from reality in terms of layout, lighting and appearance. It exudes an otherworldly atmosphere. Coupled with the fact that you are the only thing reminiscent of humanity roaming the halls only serves to magnify this sensation.

My point is, this is why I think Doom is at its best when authors embrace this and some truly remarkable levels are created as a result. With the right music and lighting, it takes you to a different place psychologically (think Doom 64). Games, like any media, have the ability to do this consistently and effectively when done right. Even in community wads, when levels are created with the intention of being hyper-realistic and accurate, there's something sterile and just "off" about the way it comes across in the Doom engine.

So, do you prefer abstract levels, whether they shipped with the game, or were created by the community? Or do you prefer it when Doom is used to accurately recreate locations that could actually exist?

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I prefer such game environments that primarily play well from a gameplay standpoint and secondarily include realistic elements. That said, each such "realistic element" that doesn't spoil gameplay (or even does enhance it) is a plus for me, while fully abstract/surreal environments rarely give me a good impression.

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There's something to be said about surreal environments. Take a -nomonster stroll through Sunlust for example. MAP30 in particular is awesome, in the original meaning. Or try Xaser's dead.wire. There's something more compelling to these strange environments than yet another attempt at making a realistic building, complete with sector toilets and repetitive cramped rooms.

Furthermore, Doom's weird proportions (compounded with Doomguy's eyes being in his chest) and simplistic rendering (ambient sector lighting, light diminishing) makes any attempt at realistic graphics kind of doomed from the start.

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I like semi-realistic maps. That means not trying to put toilets or chairs and stuff like that. The techbase style is semi-realistic usually.

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Gez said:

There's something more compelling to these strange environments than yet another attempt at making a realistic building, complete with sector toilets and repetitive cramped rooms.

But Sector Toilets are the staple of any good WAD.
Isn't it practically a requirement if you want to even be eligible for a Cacoward?

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representational/impressionist architecture is A-OK... I like sector sofas and bins, prisons and office blocks up until the author decides to follow a real-worldly floorplan to the point where you have rows of regular, rectangular cubicles/cells/vestries, which makes exploration very unrewarding. Castles and churches are the best things to recreate faithfully in Doom because they already have interesting, tiered and meaningful architecture.

I love any sort of map theme if it's done well... my favourite level-set from this year was Sunlust, but my favourite from the previous year was Bloody Steel

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I like the Doom II abstract look myself, but knowingly naff sector realism like in Kama Sutra and TVR! Are fun too

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Gez said:

There's something to be said about surreal environments. Take a -nomonster stroll through Sunlust for example. MAP30 in particular is awesome, in the original meaning. Or try Xaser's dead.wire. There's something more compelling to these strange environments than yet another attempt at making a realistic building,

I personally disagree, complex "art"-works in "gloomy-surreal" style were never my thing, and I can't help but seeing certain wads that way, including Dead Wire, Ribbiks's creations, and even some of BTSX E1, Valiant E4 and many BTSX E2 maps.

I also think I'd be less allergic to them if they didn't have "ambient" atmosphere and music, because that's also generally not up to my taste. I guess that if an artwork is "disconnected from reality" too much and/or in too many aspects, I'm unable to find it compelling.

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When I play a mod I don't mind playing either environments as long as it works and plays well (and isn't hideous to look at). When I make a level on the other hand, I prefer to go for abstract so I can have more creative designs. Trying to design a more realistic looking level gives me to many restrictions and usually end up being bad for one reason or another. Though, from the maps I made in the past, I'm sure you'd call them "semi realistic".

Any way, I prefer Doom's maps over Doom 2's because the levels looked nicer were more creative, while Episode 4 had nice abstract maps. Doom 2 felt like it was trying to mimic realistic locations but couldn't really, and often had bad design choices, or just looked horrid.

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Abstract all the way. I love seeing unusual and unique environments and locations. Realism in Doom doesn't really interest me.

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I like a balance of the two- I do enjoy abstract though so long as it still has an underlying theme of sorts. ..nothing wrong with going a little left-field at times though! :D Some of the more..."different" wads still are thought of today for trying something new!

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Aye, I like a bit of both. Doom could have looked a little more realistic, as it was going too. But hey, you can pass the surreal look as Hell's influence...lazy, but it gives a reason so I can buy it here.

Doom 2 however, that game still make me feel sick..actually queezy.

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yakfak said:

representational/impressionist architecture is A-OK... I like sector sofas and bins, prisons and office blocks up until the author decides to follow a real-worldly floorplan to the point where you have rows of regular, rectangular cubicles/cells/vestries, which makes exploration very unrewarding.


I think the same thing.
Also I when make my maps I like to create places or structures that could be possibly realistic but I modify the things according to gameplay and related stuff.

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Job said:

The original Doom and Doom 2 levels, although trying to depict "real" locations, never really pulled it off. In some cases, because our only experience with starbases would be from movies or pop culture, it was largely open to interpretation. In addition to that, the stock Doom textures don't necessarily lend themselves well to realism. That's why I'd have to say that Doom's use of exaggerated, meandering geometry and colorful, unusual textures is far better suited to create an abstract depiction of real places. There's something haunting about being in a place that could be real, but is so perverted and far-removed from reality in terms of layout, lighting and appearance. It exudes an otherworldly atmosphere. Coupled with the fact that you are the only thing reminiscent of humanity roaming the halls only serves to magnify this sensation.


If you read the Doom bible, the whole game was originally supposed to be more based on fantasy than horror. Originally it was about humans being in a super-advanced galactic federation like star wars or star trek, which was massively popular at the time, so they took the artistic licence to do what they wanted. In reality we already have a space station - but its just an arrangement of pipes with spoilt over-friendly asian-americans floating around in it, which ironically works out to be some peoples version of hell anyway.

I would say I disagree. Doom 1 described hell in a very arcade action-game way, but it wasn't badly done. Doom 2 did an even better job of describing earth under the occupation of hell, and the factory/downtown levels are awesome. You got to remember that this is a game that came out during the original computer boom and people thought that this level of technology was simply amazing. Also, the reason that all this color was used was because during the 90s, people thought computer graphics were amazing and decide to make all these strange, colorful graphics, ie. plain greens on red, reds on blues, horrible stuff. So when people look back on the 90s and shake their head and think, why were computer graphics so sickening? We were simply exploiting the new capabilities of computer graphics.

So to answer you directly, Doom was based on fantasy rather than reality, that was quite deliberate and the reason was because it was being received well (Judge Dredd, Back to the Future, Interstar Galactica etc)

Job said:

My point is, this is why I think Doom is at its best when authors embrace this and some truly remarkable levels are created as a result. With the right music and lighting, it takes you to a different place psychologically (think Doom 64). Games, like any media, have the ability to do this consistently and effectively when done right. Even in community wads, when levels are created with the intention of being hyper-realistic and accurate, there's something sterile and just "off" about the way it comes across in the Doom engine.


You have not actually specified a particular point, but I generally agree. Doom 64 is a strange game in terms of Doom as a whole and I look at it as something they bust out for a number of reasons: first, because Doom was suddenly getting action on the console platform, second, to compete against Quake and other 2-bit shooters which were upcoming or already established on that market, and third, by that point gamers were suddenly aging and getting older. Otherwise they would have kept the colorful sprites and cheerful MIDI music. They didn't create it to develop a deep, psychological impact, or anything that was particularly lasting. They did it to be more competitive in a market that was becoming increasingly more geared towards horror, hence the focus on this in Doom 3.

So yeah, going overboard with just graphics and realism is a waste of time can work against itself. What matters most is the idea behind it all, and relaying that doomguy is fighting demons in hell (as opposed to Quake and Unreal, which are the generic alien-bad-guy story). Given that modern day games love to simply rehash and rely on the past or general consensus, there is open opportunity to explore and relive that idea again, instead of creating these sterile and unconvincing worlds.

Job said:

So, do you prefer abstract levels, whether they shipped with the game, or were created by the community? Or do you prefer it when Doom is used to accurately recreate locations that could actually exist?


Are there any maps that legitimately reflect locations that really exist? It would be cool as hell to fight through a world war 1 map and fight demons in the Somme. Or to fight through a Nazi concentration camp. It would be fun to see alternative histories in Doom mods, rather than "the Demons have come, oh no got to kill them!" instead of stupid Alien vendetta maps. But accurately re-creating arenas of war will always invite extreme hostility of "you are hurting my feelings" and that at the moment is something that Doom is not ready for.

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I enjoy a variety of map designs, I can't say which one I prefer. As long as the map looks good, and most of all, is fun to play, that's all that matters to me.

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Trying to go ultra-realistic is obviously not going to work with the Doom engine - but I'd prefer at least to make things look like they appear what they are supposed to be, albeit in a simplified fashion.
If 'abstract' means to do something without even the slightest attempt of realism, though, (case in point: Doom 2's city levels) I'm out.

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While i don't dislike realistic maps, most of my favorite wads embraced the abstract/surreal design, especially Darsycho's wads.
So, abstract all the way for me!

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deadwolves said:

Are there any maps that legitimately reflect locations that really exist?


check TRINITY.WAD, merry xmas =P

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For Doom I prefer surreal environments. Realistic enviroments don't really work well in Doom IMO.
While playing some other old shooters lately I also noticed that Doom doesn't really have much sprites for realistic stuff likes chairs, tables, toilets and other everday stuff. Those things might have made Doom 2 feel a bit more Earth-like if the the game had them.

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i like abstract the most, but theres examples trough the whole abstract-realistic spectrum that i like, and i guess my fave wad going down is semirealistic

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I think yakfak hits the nail on the head with his use of the terms "representational/impressionist;" a lot of the spaces and environments classic Doom attempts to create aren't places we have any experience of in reality (Martian toxin refineries, anyone?) so the goal of level design in those cases is much more about creating an impression of a place rather than a realistic recreation of an environment, and wrapping that impression around compelling gameplay. One can't exactly 'recreate' an environment that doesn't exist in the first place, and in more grounded examples where the environment does exist (for example, city environments) I think most players gravitate towards levels which represent such an environment while providing entertaining gameplay, rather than one which recreates such an environment at the expense of gameplay. Likewise, I think most players are more forgiving of level about which they can say "fun to play, no sense of place" rather than "great sense of place, but the gameplay isn't all that."

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As long as gameplay works and the theme of the map is executed well, I'm easy with this equation.

Its nice to see abstract done so well it establishes a new look, but a patiently constructed realistic is rewarding too.

I lean slightly towards abstract I suppose, in so much that the best done abstract levels still represent something realistic. Realism through abstraction leaves more room for gameplay!

EDIT: grammor

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I really enjoy maps that find a balance between realistic, believable locations with lots of details and good placement of things and a strong sense of exploratory flow/engaging combat. That said, I think I tend to get the most excited about maps that lean toward the abstract. Of the classic Doom releases, Doom 64 seems to embrace this aesthetic the most beautifully. To me, some of the best user mods have been ones that lean toward this end of the spectrum. When the otherworldly nature of abstract design is used effectively, you have to draw your own conclusions as to the function of any given area. When function is made clear, as is sometimes the case in user maps, the form becomes less interesting. There's something provocative about designs in which your imagination fills in the gaps.

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I've always enjoyed how Doom loosely resembles reality but also blends it with fantasy. That's what sets Doom apart from all the modern first person shooters that try to ramp up the realism. There's no need for ultra-realism in my opinion. It's a video game, after all. There's outside for realistic adventures and games for when you want an escape from reality.

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I'm not even sure if it's possible to make a truly realistic portrayal of anything but the simplest, most recognizable, real-life settings. But even these feel more like symbolic stand-ins than actual places (i.e. you recognize this is a road, because of the yellow lines in the middle, but it doesn't actually resemble any road you've ever seen IRL).



For example take this hospital - probably one of the more convincing depictions I've seen. Even it looks more like something a bunch of demons, using crude tools, would come up with if they were trying to recreate this setting.

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deadwolves said:

Are there any maps that legitimately reflect locations that really exist?


There's Dawn Of Reality, modelled after the Polish town of Bytom.

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I liked that map, except it suffered from a problem that far too many sandboxy-maps suffer from: Once you clear the baddies, you have to search the whole fucking town for a series of elusive switches and keys. That can get very difficult.

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TheOrganGrinder said:

I think most players are more forgiving of level about which they can say "fun to play, no sense of place" rather than "great sense of place, but the gameplay isn't all that."


Well said. A good analogy would be the tony hawk pro skater series of games, that have vert ramps, handrails and sidewalks everywhere while being based on real world cities and locations. You get less control over your character in thps than you do in Doom, so in Doom you interact with pretty much every sector in the map in one way or another, but you design the gameplay around the world more than you design the world around the gameplay.

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Realistic maps can occasionally be breathtaking, like in those Russian wads ellaguro played on YouTube. The heavy emphasis on atmosphere in those wads probably has a lot to do with that. Most of the time though, I think any attempts at realism detract from what makes Doom stand out as a game, not just visually but functionally as well. There's a reason why the maps which Tom Hall (the most narrative-inclined member of Id back in the day) had a hand tend to be so much more irritating than the rest of the game. I re-experienced this very issue in my current playthrough of Epic. I promise you my notes rip that godawful MAP02 apart...

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