Bloodstain finally out!

[Spectre01]

Count651 said:

Just finished this wad and I gotta say I was very impressed with the first 2 episodes. Everything was so fluid and solid and looked great aesthetically too. But then episode 3 happened and I gotta be honest, I hated it. Massive slaughter battles with 6 or more archviles that can easily trace a line of sight on you just isn't fun in my opinion. On top of that there were many traps where enemies literally teleported right in your face and killed you before you could even react. Maybe other people can tolerate it but I was literally going mad throughout the last several maps.

Everything before map 20 is absolutely great, but if you can't stand slaughter wads then you're better off stopping at map 20 cuz there's nothing ahead but pain and suffering.

I wouldn't call maps 20-30 slaughter maps. The monster count is never too high, and when it is, it's because the map is just very large and takes nearly an hour to full-clear. There are maybe only a couple of very difficult encounters with over 100 monsters in them. I'd liken it more to earlier Sunlust maps or the classic difficult Plutonia traps rather than slaughter. Plus you're almost always given room to back away from a bad situation.

Anyways, great wad. The only real problem I encountered was monsters not being able to chase you much and getting stuck in doorways/stairs etc.

[Pipicz]

rileymartin said:

I wouldn't call maps 20-30 slaughter maps. The monster count is never too high, and when it is, it's because the map is just very large and takes nearly an hour to full-clear. There are maybe only a couple of very difficult encounters with over 100 monsters in them. I'd liken it more to earlier Sunlust maps or the classic difficult Plutonia traps rather than slaughter. Plus you're almost always given room to back away from a bad situation.

Weee, I'm glad someone finally pointed out that calling maps 20-30 slaughtermaps is inaccurate :-) Thanks a lot, bro! :-)

[rhinoduck]

Finally, we will be playing the first half of this wad in Zdaemon Thursday Night Survival this week (18. Feb., starting at 19:00 GMT, forums post coming later).

Přijd se podívat, když budeš mít čas, popřípadě křič, pokud budeš chtít, abychom to ještě odložili :)

[rhinoduck]

I'm not sure you'll want to do something about it anymore, but it seems like, in map19, the plan was to tie linedef 7919 tele to sector 952, yet they have different tags (which are not used by anything else).

[Firedust]

Just completed this, awesome wad! Gave me a strong AV vibe, which is a very good thing. Wasn't overly difficult but not particularly easy either. Visuals were stunning. Most certainly worth the wait.

[kuchitsu]

Since you mentioned a possible future version, I recommend going through the whole thing in prboom-plus -complevel 2 because there are quite a few issues. While not gamebreaking, they can make the wad look kinda rushed. The logo doesn't fit the screen and in several levels I've encountered sky cutoffs and floating objects. I see you put a lot of effort into design, now it just needs some polish to really shine...

[mouldy]

Been playing this wad on and off for a while, I'm up to around map 15 or so. Its got a really polished visual vibe to it, very impressive piece of work. The gameplay i'm starting to find a bit grindy though, in the sense of methodically clearing wall after wall of meat to progress. Often there is a doorway, some steep steps, or even monster blocking line to facilitate this shooting gallery type of gameplay. I'm playing on UV continuous by the way.

i do like lots of monsters of course, just feels like there are situations here where adding more doesnt increase the difficulty and slows things down a bit. Dunno, just a feeling. I'll keep on going, the talk of slaughter in the last episode is intriguing me.

[Spectre01]

kuchitsu said:

Since you mentioned a possible future version, I recommend going through the whole thing in prboom-plus -complevel 2 because there are quite a few issues. While not gamebreaking, they can make the wad look kinda rushed. The logo doesn't fit the screen and in several levels I've encountered sky cutoffs and floating objects. I see you put a lot of effort into design, now it just needs some polish to really shine...

Holy resolution/graphics Batman! I know some people like kicking it oldschool but still... Anyways, I checked that floating candle area in Zandronum and I'm not getting that issue. The only real problem I've experienced is monster blocking lines, but perhaps that's intentional on the dev's part.

mouldy said:

i do like lots of monsters of course, just feels like there are situations here where adding more doesnt increase the difficulty and slows things down a bit. Dunno, just a feeling. I'll keep on going, the talk of slaughter in the last episode is intriguing me.

I'm guessing it's the strong AV influence which also had a lot of meat to shoot through early on while only giving you enough shells. At least the Barons here are more interesting and dangerous to fight. As far as expectations of slaughter in episode 3, I believe the highest monster count is around 700 and there are no BFG spam maps with infinite cells. There are however some very difficult scenarios with nasty monster placement similar to Sunlust.

[rhinoduck]

We will be testing whether the second half of the wad will make us sweat or whether it will be a piece of cake for our skilled crowd tonight in TNS #239.

[Andrea Rovenski]

So is this wad finalized, or will there be an update?

[dew]

mouldy said:

Been playing this wad on and off for a while, I'm up to around map 15 or so. Its got a really polished visual vibe to it, very impressive piece of work. The gameplay i'm starting to find a bit grindy though, in the sense of methodically clearing wall after wall of meat to progress. Often there is a doorway, some steep steps, or even monster blocking line to facilitate this shooting gallery type of gameplay. I'm playing on UV continuous by the way.

i do like lots of monsters of course, just feels like there are situations here where adding more doesnt increase the difficulty and slows things down a bit. Dunno, just a feeling. I'll keep on going, the talk of slaughter in the last episode is intriguing me.

I completely agree with this sentiment.

Bloodstain looks mostly gorgeous with some really striking vistas and there are quite a lot of great design ideas, but playing it from UV pistol starts has been a frustrating experience, to say the least. I felt like the maps took twice as long as they should've. A 150-200 monster map took 25-30 minutes and I wanted it to breeze past in 15 max, but there was no easy way to pick up pace. Too often I found myself unable to access the next room, because a cadre of beefy mid-tier monsters blocked the door/stairs, them unable to reach me because of a step too small, ledge too tall or monster blocking linedef too... existent and me unable to deal with them quickly and efficiently because of my poor arsenal and a lack of good infighting options.

Pistol starts made this a lot worse as I had to grind down a lot of cacos, mancos and even souped up barons with the laughable SG and all of the good weapons lied behind the hordes. Some of the later map starts have been really vicious that way. To me, this is the memory Bstain imprinted onto me the most. I just have to grind those guys down the slow way, because even if I decide to push my luck and squeeze past the pair, I'll just get punished for it and fight an even worse blockade. Futhermore, the first position actually isn't challenging at all - I can always back off and the two guys cannot threaten me unless I fail my dodge check.

Also quite a lot of the "slaughter" fights in the later maps felt very inconsistent. The revenant/vile ambush at the very end of map28 was ball-busting and I had to reload several times, then the cybs and afrits that followed were easy-peasy in comparison. Speaking of map28... the void/portal part is a fantastic idea, but I hated the gameplay with passion. Infinitely revived chainers, a really awkward bridge fight with the cyberdemon where it's too easy to fall down and need to run around again and ammo/health starvation were quite over the top. The BK room in map28 also very easily produces z-sec ghosts from corpses crushed under the door, which is not fun when on a tight rocket budget. On the other hand - the RK secret was an awesome idea. In map29, the BK horde is just the most pitiful and inefficient ambush ever - well, with the exception of the map25 central room massacres. Those monsters just slaughter themselves and can't even threaten you in any way. On the other hand, the RK cage fight in map29 almost made me punch the computer, because I only figured out what the gimmick is after I cleared it the hard way - being a target and soaking up the damage while killing everything. The skull switches are nigh-impossible to spot in that carnage!

I picked out the last maps, because they're the freshest in my memory, but I could go like this forever, both praising and criticizing basically every map. There are excellent ideas throughout the mapset, but I can't enjoy it, because I get frustrated by the low points. Furthermore I have to doubt that this was ever tested in prboom-plus with complevel 2. I encountered quite a lot of stuck monsters that probably work in zdoom and an endless count of hoveritems - items whose hitbox partially touches a sector with a different height that "jump" to it after a nearby floor changes height. This causes them to look like they hover in the air - and sometimes quite high where the player cannot collect them anymore. Just start the maps with -nomonsters, give yourself IDFA and start activating linedefs without collecting any items - soon, things will be flying everywhere around!

I'm sorry I'm so critical (and if I'm bringing up stuff that was already mentioned), but I think this mapset has a huge potential that is drowned in gameplay that strongly encourages corner camping.

P.S.: Screw that YK trap in map22. That's just evil... I genuinely feel sorry for any poor soul who might attempt to FDA it and gets to that part.

[Pipicz]

Wow, somehow I stopped watching this thread, but I see that posts still pop up here from time to time. Too bad I missed both ZD Night Survivals... but that's a fault on my part. Still, at least seeing the video from it at YouTube really warmed my heart :-)
And, as always, thanks for the feedback and critique to all, it is much appreciated. Especially dew's post :-)

[dew]

Re: that YK trap, I feel like it's a little homage to ksutra map20, but there the trap springs at the very start of the map, so even if I die to it, I can easily restart the map. In bstain map22, it's almost the last thing the player does, so if they're not saving, they lose the entire progress to something that's impossible to predict and quite tricky to avoid.

[Pipicz]

dew said:

Re: that YK trap, I feel like it's a little homage to ksutra map20, but there the trap springs at the very start of the map, so even if I die to it, I can easily restart the map. In bstain map22, it's almost the last thing the player does, so if they're not saving, they lose the entire progress to something that's impossible to predict and quite tricky to avoid.

Yeah, it is true, both the statement about a KS map20 homage and about how much it sucks when you don't expect it. I know it was quite dumb to create something like that and even more so to keep it there, but I felt that it was slightly more original than to just let two revenants or hell knights teleport to the barrels' spawnspots. But I agree that in the end it sucks.

[dew]

Well, I can agree with that, heh. How about a compromise: instead of immediatelly putting two barrels up the player's ass, start a short chain reaction just off the map so they can hear it - if they still linger, they get nuked, but they have a warning beforehand. The timing would be up to your cruelty, of course. :)

[kmxexii]

review is finally up. thank you for some really cool levels.

[Nine Inch Heels]

FYI: That Song from Blur isn't called "woo hoo", it is actually called "song 2". Maybe you might wanna get that corrected in your .txt ;-)

[Pipicz]

kmxexii said:

review is finally up. thank you for some really cool levels.

And thank you for a very nice and extensive review! :-)

[DonnieDark]

Pretty solid wad from tech bases to hell depths. Level design is really well done and stays interesting all the way through. Difficulty level is pretty high and slaughterish in some spots but appropriate munitions and health are given so you atleast have a chance. I played this with project brutality on 3rd difficulty with random spawns so it was pretty tough. Thanks for sharing your work and am happy to nominate for cacowards.

[ptoing]

Just played the first 4 maps and like it so far. There are a few things I noticed, though.

In map 3 I think, there are places where you got former humans in little rounded cages in the corners of the outside of buildings. Those cage lines should be marked blocks monsters, because atm it is possible for them to slide through the cage and fall down when shot. Just looks a bit goofy, minor quibble.

Another thing which I found a bit annoying is that you do not seem to silence the sound of instant raising sectors (the ones you use for stuff like 3d bridges). So you walk around and get these chunk chunk sounds which should not be there. Easy enough to fix by placing some small sector a long way away and making it the same sector as the self referencing one that gets raised/lowered instantly.

Other than that, no complaints so far.

[Reisal]

Is this already on /idgames/? If it isn't, why not? I'm an idiot and overlooked the link.

[Kira]

dew said:

stuff

I am sad to say I am 100% agreeing with this post. Sad because I was looking forward to it given the overall praise and the fact that it was Pipicz doing his own megawad, after his more impressive than mine debut in PL2 at the young age of 14.

As a no-save UV pistol starter, some maps really played with my nerves (map22...). And I feel just like you that -complevel 2 wasn't properly tested. I'd add to your list that too many times I encountered ghosts because viles were released where enemies could be crushed by doors.

I can't hate it because the cool ideas are really cool, but the gameplay is such a grind that I dropped at map25 because my stamina had ran out. I was actually loving the map, its layout, its atmosphere... but rooms were filled with monsters for the sake of it and when my reward for surviving all key traps and cleaning TWICE the main hall was to fight a bunch of cybers protected by viles after 20+mn of playing, and before what looked like yet another final arena for the sake of completing a checklist, I couldn't bring myself to try again.

Usually, when a map with dangerous key traps and a grand finale like this kills me in the later parts, I can devise routes to accelerate things thanks to knowledge gained (like, say, Speed of Doom map26, where you can trigger a lot of fights at once and get to clean half the map in 6-7mn on average, while feeling the thrill of danger), but here it meant I had to camp around corners for 15+ minutes. And I felt no excitement at this.

It's a pity really. I loved the baron replacement, I loved the themes, I loved some fights, map15-16-17-18 was a stretch of maps that made me go "wow" with their layouts... Map18 is one that probably suited Pipicz's gameplay style just about right. It was crammed with bodies, but you could use different routes and experiment for the sake of variety. If it didn't have the forced final arena it would have been perfect. BTW while it was pretty much all brown, I loved the terracotta theme! Map09 I don't remember much about it but I was satisfied when finishing it, so it must have done something right as well.

Sorry for the big downer of a post Pipicz! When playing it I could see how much work you have put into this, and it's a 32 maps megawad ffs. You did so much more than most mappers can manage here. It might just be that I'm not the target audience, as a sort-of clinically insane fda player.