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40oz

Are flamewars bad?

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Obviously, in preserving the peace and civility of a message board filled with a bunch of strangers, flame wars can be very VERY bad. But in your personal opinion, do you enjoy participating in flame wars? Do you like quietly observing the havoc? Must controversy be limited to peaceful discussion in order to have any positive effects?

I think flame wars were pretty prevalent some years ago but I guess because so few of us are 16 years old anymore, many peoples levels of patience and tolerance for errors in judgment has shot up astronomically (from what it was.) It seems to be that there are few issues in the community that divide us clean in half. When there is controversy, the issue is usually put to rest pretty quick. Even the trolls that sign up to shitpost here can't keep it together for more than a few days.

Peace certainly comes with its benefits. I've gotten to know people much better over the years, and I've made a lot of friends. But a part of me still misses the chaos.

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Only a fool would want to throw gasoline into the open fire.

Back then, I used to think it was cool to be involved, but I've matured dramatically.

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I used to find them funny; now I think it's just a pointless waste of time.

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Thread title said:

Are flamewars bad?

Yeah, I'd say so.

Gez said:

I used to find them funny; now I think it's just a pointless waste of time.

Same here.

I was a shitbag back when I frequented the ZDoom forums. Funny that people still talk poorly about me there, I've changed significantly.

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I used to get swept up in flame wars, but I don't think I ever enjoyed them. Now I actively avoid them.

There's nothing wrong with, eh, passionately disagreeing, but flame wars are an ugly and ineffectual way to go about resolving differences. There's no room for dialogue typically, and it just turns into a culture skirmish, where no one really cares about what another party said, except maybe to use it against them in a following post.

A bit off-scope:

One of the things I love about doomworld's forums, is how mature the discussions are (for the most part). A lot of online communities tend to get hot-headed around newbies, seeing them as a threat to the status-quo. But senior members around here actually take the time to actively nurture and guide new members/contributors. The result is a very steady influx of new blood.

One of my first posts is about a problem with a ZDoom map (all great mappers start in UDMF, ofc! :p). Kappes Buur uploaded some example wads with comments in the scripts, and I was off to the races. I've seen this same pattern repeated again and again with newbies, and we're starting to see it paying dividends. Look at how many relatively new Doomers are being awarded Cacowards.

Warms the cockles of my heart, it does. :)

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Gez said:

I used to find them funny; now I think it's just a pointless waste of time.


This. I don't really understand what I ever got out of them, aside from the occasional gratification that "I won." I've since realized that crass adage comparing flame wars to 'special olympics' is pretty much spot on.

Though Doomworld has matured pretty decently, elsewhere on the internet isn't as calm as the OP seems to imply. As a professional moderator I see a lot every day, and honestly I'd say it's worse now. Back in ye olde forum days the flame wars were generally ABOUT something and the insults were just ad hominems, but there was some kind of discussion underneith. NOW the kids just get together and "roast" each other, nothing more than hurling verbal abuse for no reason. I don't really get it. Mosty it's just pathetic.

schwerpunk said:

One of the things I love about doomworld's forums, is how mature the discussions are (for the most part). A lot of online communities tend to get hot-headed around newbies, seeing them as a threat to the status-quo. But senior members around here actually take the time to actively nurture and guide new members/contributors. The result is a very steady influx of new blood.


I have to admit that I've been around DW quite a bit longer than my register date might imply, and I've seen the community go through some rough patches, but overall I'd agree: It's a relatively mature, respectful community. The "elders" around here aren't anywhere near as insular as some other communities I've been to. Which is good, it's part of what has kept the Doom community thriving all these years.

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Flamewars are just people arguing like normal with a few more capital letters, bolded statements, and profanity. The problem is that due to the text based nature of the internet, the tone of everything is essentially whatever the reader wants it to be. So it's easier for people to imagine two people calling each other retards is this huge fight between two people where they're pounding at their keyboard in a vicious rage because of how butthurt the other person has made them. When the reality is both people are probably at worst mildly annoyed.

Essentially it's this.

http://imgur.com/8kcB9X3

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40oz said:

But in your personal opinion, do you enjoy participating in flame wars? Do you like quietly observing the havoc? Must controversy be limited to peaceful discussion in order to have any positive effects?

-No.
-No.
-Unfortunately, no.

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I'm sometimes too weak and throw in my opinion resulting in participation or sometimes risk starting one. But I don't like them and doubt anyone truly wins.

Opinion are opinions and as soon as you offend or anger a stranger you're going to have a real hard time convincing them to agree with your viewpoint. And usually if anyone gets in a flame-war in the first place it suggests a level of stubbornness.

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Conversations where people disagree but aren't being total assholes are really nice. I get a mix of amusement and "ugh people are fucking retarded" when reading the flame wars after the fact, though.

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Mixed feelings. Internet arguments can be entertaining when you're a spectator, and there's been some 'good' ones on Doomworld. But they're tedious and unsettling when you're actually involved in them.

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Does not the forest burn to remove dead wood? Does not new life spring forth from the ashes? Rejoice, for the fagot screams as it is consumed in flame, and the lesson is goodly taught.

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darknation said:

Rejoice, for the fagot screams as it is consumed in flame, and the lesson is goodly taught.

uh

what

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There's a type of flamewar I find hilarious and a type of flamewar I find tedious.
The hilarious kind of flamewar is when there is one guy (or a small group of people) taking the most ridiculous, extreme, or blatantly wrong position and being needlessly argumentative about it and you have sane, but extremely gullible people arguing back. This kind of flame war starts when somebody posts an all caps post like "IN THE NAME OF JESUS I REBUKE THEE DEMONS ID SOFTWARE IS AN ICON OF SIN REPRESENTING THE UNHOLY ABOMINATIONS SPAWNED BY VIDEO GAMES TO PERVERT OUR CHILDREN AWAY FROM THE PATH OF THE LORD WHICH IS OPPOSED BY THE CLAN OF DEMONIC REPTILIAN FREEMASONS"

The tedious type of flamewar is when a bunch of people that are otherwise rational and get along get into a huge argument over something they disagree on. This is usually brought on by somebody innocently bringing up some topic that can be tied to religion or politics.

Either way I don't really want to get involved, but the first type is hilarious to sit back and read.

Sodaholic said:

uh

what

Sounds like a biblical quote or something. I think it's referring to a bundle of logs since the spelling "fagot" was used. It would make a good map title perhaps.

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Flamewars are a sign of an untamed ego. Participating in them flairs up the ego and this is never a good thing. When people start shitting on me in a forum, I try to maintain positivity and refuse to resort to name calling. I think I've been shit on here more than anywhere else on the Internet and it's been a good exercise in building a thick skin.

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Tosi said:

I think it's referring to a bundle of logs since the spelling "fagot" was used.

Wood doesn't scream, last I checked.

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Sure it does, the water/sap being heated up and released causes a slight noise. It's probably the same reason spiders squeak when they burn, since their legs are filled with fluid due to their hydraulic locomotion.

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40oz said:

Are flamewars bad?


Only if you lose, cuckoohead. :3

In all seriousness, I don't see how flamewars could ever be good except as bitterly amusing lessons in what not to do. Arguments are one thing, but once they have crossed into flamewars, the subject at hand becomes mere dressing for an ego-driven pissing match. People just start using each other as lightning rods for pent up frustrations, and I think we've seen enough of that on the net.

I used to get roped into those things more when I was a comparatively immature kid using the internet before I was arguably old enough too, and I learned a few things the hard way (thankfully without tears, unlike some other kids who have so much as uploaded an innocent YouTube video). The sad part is that quite often I didn't mean to get into it, but didn't understand the internet and didn't always express myself clearly. The flamewars sometimes started out as enjoyable, but quickly became an alienating drain.

I won't say I never get involved in squabbles on the internet now, but I'm certainly much more cool-headed and dismissive about it rather than aggressive. These days it seems that the only time I get attacked on the internet is when I leave a YouTube comment that isn't like all the others and either get called a "hipster" (how trendy) or told that "this is the internet" (no shit, your point?). I'll usually just verbally shrug them off.

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I generally don't bother arguing over the internet. It only invites trouble.

If someone does the internet equivilant of "starting on you" then just leave. Who cares what other people think?

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