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Budoka

Any more pro, slick Megawads like these famous ones?

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Buckle up, the idea I’m going for here might be a little hard to properly communicate. What I’m asking is if there are other Megawads with the exact same characteristics as the following:

-Hell Revealed I and II
-Alien Vendetta
-Kama Sutra
-Scythe I and II
-Speed of Doom
-Resurgence
-Valiant
-Sunlust

So, what do these all have in common anyway? Well, let’s see:

-They’re all 32 maps (give or take a “Chocolate”)
-They all have a natural, holistic progression both in terms of challenge and (mostly visual) narrative (give or take a “Clandestine Complex”)
-They’re all considered much harder than the other megawads released at their respective times, but still a far cry from the total psycho-fests found in Deus Vult, Sunder, Slaughterfest, Chillax, ESP.wad, Italo-Doom and the like

Valiant and Sunlust may seem a bit different from the rest, but they re-use so much of the Scythe II template that to me at least they feel like the same idea.

Now, you might think that something like Community Chest 4 fits the bill as it is visually close to the later wads on this list, but it doesn’t. The themes in it are all over the place, so is the challenge, and the wad introduces identity gimmicks only to drop them a few moments later (like the blue exit switch). Actually, community projects in general don’t lend themselves to this kind of… completeness, so to speak. (Although, maybe Memento Mori II…?)

Plutonia? Not right either. The difficulty curve is inconsistent as well as barely noticeable, and the entire megawad looks more or less the same.

This is about the best description I can give. I have no idea whether or not you guys can see what I’m talking about. Now, I’m not saying that such projects should be the be all end all of Doom mapping, and whether these or more artistically ambitious wads such as Hell Ground, 50 Shades and A.L.T should get the bigger recognition is a question I don’t have the answer to.

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Vanguard is the first Skillsaw wad I played, and is considered one of the best Pwads ever for very good reasons, but it's not a valid answer.

AnominVio: I added that to my release list thread but didn't download it. Thanks, I'll give it a shot.

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Bloodstain was the first thing to come to mind. I've played only a third of it, though.

Do any of the wads from the big list of DMWC playthroughs fit? It seems like Unholy Realms could be a candidate, though I haven't finished that one either.

I did a similar investigation but with slightly different criteria (lower difficulty requirement, released later than 2004 or so only) and what I concluded was that there are surprisingly few megawads like this.

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Back to Saturn X is a likely candidate, but I'm holding off on it until the full release. I don't want to play all those levels only to see them re-modified afterwards.

Going Down, hmmm, maybe. It's a bit peculiar though.

I gave Bloodtsain a quickshot. I didn't manage to finish the techbase section (didn't try too hard either), but so far it's quite amazing.

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Budoka said:

Going Down, hmmm, maybe. It's a bit peculiar though.


The novelty of it as an office building operated by monsters is a little silly but it quickly cuts into awesome territory about six levels in or so. I was gonna recommend it before suitepee mentioned it, and I'm not a big fan of comedy in my Doom experiences, but Going Down isn't very far off from Kama Sutra in that regard.

I'd also recommend Perditions Gate, Hell to Pay, BF_THUD!, and Hellbound.

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40oz said:

BF_THUD!


Most definitely not. I played the first eight maps of that, and every last one of them outright sucked.

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If you want something new to play you have to keep an open mind or make maps yourself.

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Seriously, if you keep creating threads based on a very specific, very subjective feeling that can't even be completely explained, then maybe you'll need to accept that other people can't predict your emotional responses to things. If you want to know what wads feel "pro and slick" to you, you're going to have to play through every wad yourself and compile your own list; otherwise, you'll have to accept a list of wads that feel "pro and slick" to other people.




ETA: In many ways, this type of thread is more useful than the endless cycle of generic "What are the best wads ever" threads. But it really doesn't make any sense to keep criticizing/shooting down people's suggestions.

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I did my best to be as descriptive as possible in the opening post, I really just don't know how to put it any better.

Anyway, you guys really don't see what's sloppy about BF_Thud ? The utterly basic and nonsensical layouts ? The absurdly (as in, literally absurdly) generous power-ups in MAP01 ? The goofy, useless, time-wasting switch sequence in MAP03 ? MAP07 and MAP08 as a whole, since anyone who's played BF knows those two are irredeemable crap from start to end?

I'd like to point out that this is the only suggestion I outright rejected, unless you count Vanguard, which, as I've already pointed out, I've finished already, and is not even half a megawad either way.

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40oz said:

If you want something new to play you have to keep an open mind or make maps yourself.


There's a chance (>0%, <20%) I make my own personal Scythe 2 clone in my own preferred geometric style (much less of a reliance on ultra-simple shapes) and my usual quirky (I think :p) type of fight staging, just because I want another megawad like this to exist. 32 levels, 10-20 hours a level, should be doable in two or so years without a lot of stress, and the slow working pace relative to the size of the maps would help fight against the tendency of megawads to add filler, ensuring that I can think up 32 levels worth of good ideas. The difficulty curve would be quite a bit smoother, with map01 having moderate difficulty, and later levels rising to Scythe 2 heights without a huge bump.

But honestly I'd rather invest that time into three or four large levels.

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Budoka said:

I did my best to be as descriptive as possible in the opening post, I really just don't know how to put it any better.

I'd like to point out that this is the only suggestion I outright rejected, unless you count Vanguard, which, as I've already pointed out, I've finished already, and is not even half a megawad either way.


Maybe I'm conflating you with some other people -- we've gotten a lot of threads of this nature lately. I'm not trying to say you're being a jerk (except maybe with the BF_THUD comment), so I'm sorry to come across that way.

The problem is that you're asking questions that don't have objective answers. It's not that you aren't being descriptive, it's just that the topic basically amounts to "Wads that give me [X] feels." Everybody has different responses to things. So it's kind of frustrating when people are like, "Here are some wads that give me [X] feels," and the OP responds with "No, that's not it! I wanted wads that give ME [X] feels, not wads that give YOU [X] feels!"

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Why do you say stupid shit like "Plutonia isn't pro and slick" when people actually did sell it and you're still sitting here complaining that every wad isn't exactly what you like? If you want more wads like Sunlust and Valiant, make one and stop being a little brat.

Close this thread mods.

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I'm not sure if I understand this thread either. The time spent reading/responding could instead be spent trying a wad, playing a map or two, and possibly CLEVing around a bit and deciding for oneself whether or not it's up one's alley. The alternative I'm seeing here is "tell me what I should like," which doesn't make much sense short of the occasional BDL sighting. :P

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Killing Adventure is the pro-est IMO.

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I think it's a good thread premise. OP should clearly be less combative in dealing with suggestions that aren't exactly what he's looking for. That's it.

Anyway, if you loosen up the megawad restriction -- which you might have to do -- there are plenty of Doomworld mappers working in this style, and that's where an investigation can begin.

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Oddly enough, I think I know exactly what the OP is talking about. Alien Vendetta was the Megawad that got me into playing wads and after finishing it, I was looking for something similar. Scythe 2 was the next one I got to that I really liked and found similar. It's hard to explain it, but the list in the OP is pretty much my favorite wads, which imo have almost perfectly balanced gameplay.

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Not Jabba said:

Maybe I'm conflating you with some other people


Considering I have the same forum grade you do, you can conclude that my post history is pretty short, and thus that checking it would solve this would-be issue. Not that you're obliged to obviously.

Xaser said:

BDL sighting


You mean the guy who wouldn't play a low-rated WAD for fear of being branded an "outsider" ? I'm about as far from such a mindset as you can conceive.

General Rainbow Bacon said:

Close this thread mods.


Not to sound preachy or anything, but you may want to renew your trip to the Doomwolrd FAQ.

By the way, I'm well aware that I don't always come off as the soft-spoken type, which has to with both the fact that I'm not naturally soft-spoken, and that I don't like it when people use tone and/or form as a smokescreen. But I'm really not interested in turning this into a thread about me, so if possible, let's all cut back on the self-righteous indignation.

And clearly some people are following what I'm saying, since the first suggestion I got was Bloodstain, which so far seems to fit like a glove. Going Down may or may not be it, I'll have to get further in it than I have to know, which I was planning to anyway.

rdwpa said:

Anyway, if you loosen up the megawad restriction -- which you might have to do -- there are plenty of Doomworld mappers working in this style, and that's where an investigation can begin.


Seems good, except it seems to me that evoking this particular style with a lower map count is actually harder to do.

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