Ultimate Doom to Doom II?

[RoyBatty]

Has anyone ever created a patch for Ultimate Doom for the Doom 2 engine?

I've always wanted to hack on it a bit and add the new creatures and weapons to the PC version of Ultimate Doom somewhat like the PSX versions did, but without making the maps simpler.

Before anyone freaks about "you can't distribute official IWAD's", what I am referring to is a bindiff patch like the commercial releases that alter DOOM II do. Which as far as I know is perfectly legal to as you need to own the IWAD's to begin with.

If this hasn't been done can I hack DOOM.wad with Doom Builder or another level editor do make changes and convert to DOOM II wad format. Which I can then later make a bindiff patch I can distribute?

[Maes]

I'm not sure what you mean here. By the time Ultimate Doom was released, all versions of Doom, including the Shareware one used the same executable, so there can't be any "Ultimate Doom to Doom II patch" for the .EXE, because it'd have no point.

The engine itself is exactly the same between Ultimate Doom and Doom II, with the same functionality and limits (to the point that you can use certain Doom II features even in "Doom I" mods, with the proper DEHACKED file, e.g. the Quest for the Necronomicon mod uses the SSG codepointer and it's for Doom v1.9).

If you meant an IWAD patch that "transforms" your Ultimate Doom installation to Doom II, that'd never be endorsed by id: they DID, at a certain point, allow "Plain Doom" to be upgraded to Ultimate Doom with a patch. Call it "a freebie for the fans", if you wish, but there never were similar patches for Ultimate Doom -> Doom II, Final Doom or anything in between, also because the changes would be too big to justify releasing a "transformer patch". If your "Ultimate Doom to Doom II" patch takes 5-6 MB, AND requires Ultimate Doom to use it, then why not sell Doom II directly? It also takes that much in zipped/floppies form, and is standalone.

Also, there's no such thing as a "Doom II WAD format": all versions of Doom use exactly the same WAD format. The only major difference is in the presence of the TEXTURE2 lump in the Doom II-based games (Doom II, Final Doom).

Finally, there have been mods that allowed you to play Doom PWADs in Doom II by supplying the missing textures since 1994. Can't link to it, and don't bother looking for it in idgames, for obvious reasons.

[RoyBatty]

Thanks for the information. I had mistakenly thought that Ultimate Doom and Doom II used slightly different engines and hence the the .wad format was slightly different.

No I did not mean to transform Ultimate Doom into Doom II, not at all. I meant editing Ultimate Doom to use assets in Doom II like the SSG, Heavy Weapons Guy, Mancubus, etc. And also making the episodes link to each other like E1M8 exit goes to E2M1 and so on for a more seamless game play.

So I could do such a thing with a DeHackEd patch?

Is there a way to use both IWAD's at the same time, or possible to make Doom.wad into a PWAD for Doom 2?

I'm just trying to get an idea if it's possible to do what I want to do.

[Maes]

Just because the executable is the same, that doesn't mean you can use Doom II monsters and textures simply by placing them in a map and a PWAD file. The executable detectx what IWAD is used/available and switches to Shareware/Doom/Doom 2/Final mode accordingly. It will not even spawn Doom II monsters in Doom mode, and only one IWAD will be used as such at a time. Additional ones will be used as PWADS, so even if you supply DOOM2.WAD as a PWAD in Ultimate Doom, it will still start in Doom mode, not Doom II mode.

Dehacked gets around this by, well, hacking codepointers and you could e.g. clone Heavy Weapon Dudes as Zombies in a Doom mod, but you'll still be limited to 10 monsters, and you'd have to provide the HWD sprites somehow.

There are ZDoom mods that implement such Doom/Doom 2 mashups but they are almost all technically illegal to distribute because of duplicate resources.

TL;DR version: since Doom II is technically a superset of Ultimate Doom, it is pointless to try and match it "from below".

[RoyBatty]

Making Doom.wad into a PWAD for Doom II is exactly what I already expressed, not the other way around. That would not be possible to use the older mode with the newer functions and assets.

What I am asking for here is what would I need to learn/research in order to do such a thing. Frankly I'm surprised no one else has done such a thing till now. Moving older games into newer iterations of their engine is nothing new in the modding community these days and there are plenty of such projects which have been successful. One of which I am involved in.

I am fully willing to research and learn what is required, but since there is no central knowledge base that I can find (like a modding wiki), it's hard to know what it is I should research, and which tools I need to use and become proficient at to achieve my goals. I just need some small inkling of where to start my journey.

I understand the legalities of doing such things, there are ways around it via using custom programs and patching that require the original assets for both games and is done by the end user, not distributed. That is not my intent at this time.

[Maes]

Look, it would be fairly trivial to save all Doom maps in a PWAD,change their header from E1M1, E1M2 etc. to MAP01, MAP02 etc., throw in the textures of Doom that are missing from Doom II and voila, instant "Doom on Doom II". Of course you would lose the separation into episodes, exits to secret levels, intermission texts etc. and generally, proper progression.

It HAS been done, but considered bad form/noobish/something you only do for personal use, or find on shitty ZDaemon coop servers.

Now if you want to learn the modding basics, what tools to use, that's anoter matter, and not bad per se. But this was hardly the best way to ask for guidance on the subject. Besides, you'll probably be told to read the editing FAQ and spend a few hours studying the basics on your own first anyway, before asking for more specific advice.

[GreyGhost]

RoyBatty said:

Has anyone ever created a patch for Ultimate Doom for the Doom 2 engine?

This might be what you're looking for - it contains all the Ultimate Doom textures that are missing from Doom 2, plus a flat or two. There's a few DOS utilities in the archives to convert wads, but once you have the textures there's not much that needs doing apart from renaming maps to the Doom 2 format, which can be done in Slade.

[Maes]

TBQH many of those utilities are reuploads of 1994 crap, and the premise of "converting" Doom maps to Doom II "now that it's out" was flawed to begin with.

[roadworx]

here's a better question: how do you get ultimate doom wads to function on doom ii? i don't mean the textures and assets, i mean having the maps automatically start up without you having to switch into them through the console.

[RoyBatty]

There is no "best way" to ask how to start really, I cannot help but be ignorant to the ways of this community as I have not been a part of it since 1993/94 like many here. I have been playing, enjoying and collecting Doom things since then however. I do love the games and I've lurked around for a few years trying to understand how this community operates, but it's pretty complicated and diverse, so please forgive my ignorance.

The editing FAQ is something I will definitely be studying. There is a lot of information here, and all over the place, it's scattered all over the web is what I getting at and it's a bit of a challenge to get into so late in the game.

I realize it's considered lame and whatever, but I don't mind that and I am not seeking anyone's approval. I just picked something that I could use for my own enjoyment and to cut my teeth on. I don't feel inclined to just jump in and start trying to make maps without understanding anything about the games internal mechanics and functions. I can learn about that by picking apart the original games' maps and assets. Plus it's something that I want to do, which gives me motivation to learn, and that's what is important to me at this stage. I've always modded for me first and foremost, for my enjoyment, not for recognition or imaginary internet points.

At least I'm not using Oblige to make crappy megawads and touting them as my work. ;)

Thank you GreyGhost for pointing me to the assets and Slade, this will give me something to poke around with and start to familiarize myself. Much appreciated.

[Maes]

roadworx said:

here's a better question: how do you get ultimate doom wads to function on doom ii? i don't mean the textures and assets, i mean having the maps automatically start up without you having to switch into them through the console.

First of all, the console exists only in some source ports, and of those not all support assigning arbitrary map names and jumping to them regardless of game mode (Doom, Doom II, Heretic etc.). You should really read the documentation of the source port you intend to use. Some might even support -warping directly to specific mapnames regardless of game mode.

The most cross-compatible method would be to permanently rename the E1M1, E1M2 etc. lumps in the PWADs to MAP01, MAP02 etc. or whatever order you prefer: that will make them appear just as regular Doom II maps, provided you also supply any missing Doom textures. This works even in vanilla Doom, and is the way "Doom to Doom2 converters" always operated. Of course, it's kinda of a handful, as it requires you to have two versions of each PWAD and manually pre-assign "Doom II-friendly" map names. Of course, if you just plan on making a "Grand ZDoom Mashup" with 1000 levels, you might as well use the MAPINFO lump.

But the best way would be to use Ultimate Doom maps when in Ultimate Doom mode, in any port ;-)

[roadworx]

Maes said:

First of all, the console exists only in some source ports, and of those not all support assigning arbitrary map names and jumping to them regardless of game mode (Doom, Doom II, Heretic etc.). You should really read the documentation of the source port you intend to use. Some might even support -warping directly to specific mapnames regardless of game mode.

The most cross-compatible method would be to permanently rename the E1M1, E1M2 etc. lumps in the PWADs to MAP01, MAP02 etc. or whatever order you prefer: that will make them appear just as regular Doom II maps, provided you also supply any missing Doom textures. This works even in vanilla Doom, and is the way "Doom to Doom2 converters" always operated. Of course, it's kinda of a handful, as it requires you to have two versions of each PWAD and manually pre-assign "Doom II-friendly" map names. Of course, if you just plan on making a "Grand ZDoom Mashup" with 1000 levels, you might as well use the MAPINFO lump.

But the best way would be to use Ultimate Doom maps when in Ultimate Doom mode, in any port ;-)

ah, thanks.

[spforce]

i did this thing already on gzdoom it was easy i maded a edit of the ultimate doom wad with all doom 2 additions i extracted all the sprites sounds and the gfx of the super shotgun the only new weapon in doom 2 that isnt in ultimate doom puted that to the edited ultimate doom wad and it works!! all the stuff that was added in doom 2 have been add to ultimate doom you can summon all the monsters the supershotgun too, but for the supershotgun picked up text to show up you need to load the edited wad as iwad and not as pwad over the original unedited ultimate doom wad as iwad,
in fact if you would try to summon doom 2 monsters on unedited ultimate doom without adding their sprites and sounds provided they will be summoned but you wont see or hear them since the resources missing but you will get attacked by them and they can kill you just wont see or hear them.