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Ribbiks

Stardate 20x7 [/idgames]

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I'm in the final level that will probably take a while so let me just say it's an amazing set. Your maps generally feel like some kind of surreal paintings to me. Not sure what they are but they're really beautiful. Once again there's some stuff that you don't see very often in DOOM - 3D floors (like in Sunlust MAP30), heavy use of lighting effects. Great stuff.

Gameplay-wise, I'm playing continuously on HMP and it's nice the set is not insanely hard that way. I'm glad there aren't really any dumb in-your-face instant floor traps and whatever instant floors you have there, they are not noticeable. Other than that, well, there are some great setpieces, as usual. Memorable stuff.

The only complaint I have is that sometimes I have a hard time finding my way around the levels. MAP01 in particular was kind of confusing, all those switches everywhere and half of the time I had no idea what they were doing.

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Ok, finished it. Cheated through the final fight though. I mean, I could have spent 2h save scumming through it but that would be pointless. Overally, just like in every other mapset where Ribbiks is involved (Stardate 20x6, Crumpets, Sunlust), the last map is the worst. Gameplay, even on HMP, turns into an insane slaughter that I guess only a subset of the most hardcore slaughtermap fans will enjoy. I would definitively like to see a UV-Max demo of that level.

So yeah, great set all things considered, minus the insanity at the end of MAP07. Might check it out on UV just to see the changes.

By the way, the 'puzzle' with three eyes in MAP07 doesn't work in GZDOOM. I thought I was too stupid to figure it out but then I noticed that it works fine in PRBOOM.

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Excellent stuff. I played it on skill 2 and still found it pretty challenging (MAP07 especially).

Also, the scene on Sphinx Rising with

Spoiler

the darkened hallway that uses a silent teleport to instantly turn red and gory looking when you enter the darkness

really blew my mind. neat.

Thanks for another awesome release :D

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SD20x6 had a secret map, so SD20x7 should have one. I'm thinking all pain elementals. Or all former human troopers.

It could be tiny too. <10 hrs of work. Get on it! :D

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Loved the mapset, got through it on UV with some save scumming in the last map.

Hated the second last encounter. Final encounter was pretty cool but man I was hoping for more than 1 megasphere in the middle :P just 2 ribbiks! just 2

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All right, I've finished map 07, and it was a blast. The ending is particularly nasty, and feels very satisfying once you actually make it to that evil purple diamond.

Overall, Stardate 20X7 is an incredible piece of work. Once again, us mere mortals were offered new and shiny sacrificial grounds to be slaughtered in over and over. I liked all the maps, there's plenty of creativity and ideas and tons of work poured into it.

However... fanboy rant ahead :)

Spoiler

Even if this is a wonderful wad, I feel a bit disappointed that it's not a proper Stardate 20X6 sequel. It feels more like a collection of new Sunlust maps, painted in purple.

Thematically-wise, the first Stardate 20X6 was a very cohesive piece of work. You started in this silver starbase in map 01, then you had the cave theme in both map 02 and 03, and then you returned to the silver base from map 04 to 07, along with a couple slight variations in texture usage. Here, you have a vast and fresh array of themes, ranging from the asian-styled map 01 to the red/purple curvy map 06 and the futuristic map 03. Every new map has its own theme - not that it's a bad thing, but it doesn't feel like a collection of maps that were thought as part of the same project.

A more interesting analysis could be done on the gameplay depatment.
For many people, both wads could be identically labeled as "highly difficult, with many traps locking the player in, and some slaughter moments here and there near the end". I believe both wads are radically different though.
In Stardate 20X6, you had a logical curve as regards to difficulty and weapon progression. The style was basically the same, but traps and ending fights were becoming harder and harder with each map. Your main weapons were the SSG, RL and Plasma Gun, with decent ammunition. The BFG9000 was ruled out until map 07, in which it had a memorable, dedicated, and dramatic introduction. Slaughter moments were rare.
Moreover, each map featured at least one very particular and clever trap, something absolutely memorable - e.g. this, this, and this. These were amazing, intimidating, well-thought traps. To me, these particular fights gave their identity to the maps themselves.
Stardate 20X7, however, features a different gameplay style, with more emphasis on ammo starvation / Tyson gameplay and the BFG9000 - which makes its debut in map 01 of all places. Some maps don't feature an ending fight, and when they do, it sometimes feels a bit weak - e.g. the AV trio at the end of map 03 or the Baron/AV circle in map 06. Granted, these fights are still hard, but IMHO they lack the panache and scope of 20X6's finales.

To be honest, I had the same grievances as regards to most of your Sunlust maps. They often felt a bit too short ( or at least shorter than what you made for 20X6 and SWTW ) and while the scenarios in them were great and devious, there weren't that many fights that particularly made an impression on me - from the top of my head, there's the whole crusher part in map17, this, and obviously the AV roundabout in 29. 29's case is interesting, notice how the whole map is summed up by this particular trap in many people's mind in the DMWC thread.

Now, Sunlust's a megawad, so it's easy to understand why danne and you had to make relatively short maps, but here with Stardate 20X7 I was expecting longer levels maybe.

I'm not saying that 20X7 lacks in content, as it definitely has its impressive balls-hard and memorable moments - I liked this in map 06 for instance, and there's still that one in 04 for a tough arena-styled fight - but yeah it seems that in your modern maps, while the traps are better integrated into the layouts ( they're not basic, disjointed arenas anymore ), they've become "smaller" in scope. I don't know.

The passage in map 06 that skillsaw describes is also interesting - it's very well executed, but the fight itself ends in like a mere minute. It's like these hyped-up rollercoasters in Disneyland, they just end too soon.

Anyway, sorry for that wall of text, heh. Don't mind me, I'm just an avid fan of your work, always craving for more :)
Thanks again for the release. It's a fantastic wad and I can't wait to replay it.

Oh and yeah there's some stuff to fix in map 07. The scrolling evil eye secret doesn't work in ZDoom, and there's this weird visual glitch with one of the infinite Chaingunner towers : when you look at this tower and step back a little, you see a grey texture appearing and the Chaingunner becomes apparently frozen.

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Touchdown said:

By the way, the 'puzzle' with three eyes in MAP07 doesn't work in GZDOOM. I thought I was too stupid to figure it out but then I noticed that it works fine in PRBOOM.


ahh, that's a problem. I hope I can find a fix for that and don't have to scrap the room.

skillsaw said:

Excellent stuff. I played it on skill 2 and still found it pretty challenging (MAP07 especially).


Thanks! Glad to see players give that setting a whirl.

rdwpa said:

SD20x6 had a secret map, so SD20x7 should have one. I'm thinking all pain elementals. Or all former human troopers.

It could be tiny too. <10 hrs of work. Get on it! :D


I have a few layouts-in-progress that I was considering putting into slots 10+ of the wad, as a sort of "bonus episode". I'll see how my motivation pans out for those, I'm not particularly optimistic.

Dime said:

Loved the mapset, got through it on UV with some save scumming in the last map.

Hated the second last encounter. Final encounter was pretty cool but man I was hoping for more than 1 megasphere in the middle :P just 2 ribbiks! just 2


on hmp there's roughly the same enemy count, but a lot more spheres, just saying :p. I'll probably nerf that second to last fight a bit more on hmp though, I've been more or less convinced it feels like an abrupt step up.

WH-Wilou84 said:

weird visual glitch with one of the infinite Chaingunner towers : when you look at this tower and step back a little, you see a grey texture appearing and the Chaingunner becomes apparently frozen.


how strange, will try to fix.

WH-Wilou84 said:

I feel a bit disappointed that it's not a proper Stardate 20X6 sequel. It feels more like a collection of new Sunlust maps, painted in purple.


I was hesitant to call this set a sequel, it was originally just going to be Velvet Blood Mission, but I figured since it thematically relied on purple again I might as well just roll with it. Sorry for setting up the expectation.

WH-Wilou84 said:

Thematically-wise, the first Stardate 20X6 was a very cohesive piece of work. You started in this silver starbase in map 01, then you had the cave theme in both map 02 and 03, and then you returned to the silver base from map 04 to 07, along with a couple slight variations in texture usage. Here, you have a vast and fresh array of themes, ranging from the asian-styled map 01 to the red/purple curvy map 06 and the futuristic map 03. Every new map has its own theme - not that it's a bad thing, but it doesn't feel like a collection of maps that were thought as part of the same project.


Valid point, the heterogeneity (with respect to 20x6) was more for my sake than the mapset. I wanted each map to have a distinct and memorable theme, and it was more enjoyable for me to be able to hop between different environments if I started getting tired of working on one. I still like my old maps, but I could certainly see an argument for the texture theme to start wearing thin after many lengthy maps in a similar style.

There are elements of color and structural progression as the maps go on, but I could definitely see some of the theme changes feeling abrupt. The map order I originally envisioned was a bit more cohesive, but things got shifted around for the sake of difficulties and mixing up gameplay style.

WH-Wilou84 said:

In Stardate 20X6, you had a logical curve as regards to difficulty and weapon progression. The style was basically the same, but traps and ending fights were becoming harder and harder with each map. Your main weapons were the SSG, RL and Plasma Gun, with decent ammunition. The BFG9000 was ruled out until map 07, in which it had a memorable, dedicated, and dramatic introduction. Slaughter moments were rare.
...
Stardate 20X7, however, features a different gameplay style, with more emphasis on ammo starvation / Tyson gameplay and the BFG9000 - which makes its debut in map 01 of all places.


UV is balanced ridiculously, HMP/HNTR has a clearer sense of difficulty and weapon progression. Can't stress enough that HMP is the intended way to play the set. But yeah, the gameplay style is tighter, for sure.

WH-Wilou84 said:

Some maps don't feature an ending fight, and when they do, it sometimes feels a bit weak - e.g. the AV trio at the end of map 03 or the Baron/AV circle in map 06. Granted, these fights are still hard, but IMHO they lack the panache and scope of 20X6's finales.


After making and playing so many maps like this there are a lot of tropes that have really lost their charm for me. Grandiose final arenas is one of them, despite being a staple method of conveying finality -.-. Many of the gameplay decisions in this wad deliberately vary from my previous stuff, reflecting both a change in tastes (notably for small-scale monster-puzzle type design) and because I'm wary of making the same type of map over and over.

WH-Wilou84 said:

Moreover, each map featured at least one very particular and clever trap, something absolutely memorable - e.g. this, this, and this. These were amazing, intimidating, well-thought traps. To me, these particular fights gave their identity to the maps themselves.
...
there weren't that many fights that particularly made an impression on me


A notable concern, one I partially share. A mapping tenet I often think about is that each level needs something quirky or striking so that a player could go "oh yeah, map X, that's the thing with the thing!". I've been shifting away from gimmicky concept-arenas as a way of trying to do this, instead trying to do it via aesthetics (e.g. elaborate structures, or the tele thing in m06). Not yet sure if I was successful with that, perhaps I didn't include enough fancy new stuff.

Anyhow, thanks for the commentary everyone!

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Hi, just finished Map07 and wanted to leave my worthless thoughts. First of all, this is truly a piece of art. If someone would put the automaps on canvas it would certainly be an eyecatcher in everyones living room.
Played most of it on HMP which was still mostly very challenging but switched to HNTR on Map07, the YK battle almost drove me crazy and in consideration of the final battle this was a wise decision :D
The biggest mistake i made in the beginning was to expect something with a similar fashion like x6, just like wilou stated before and accordingly i was kinda disapointed first. Took me like the first 3 maps to finally appreciate and enjoy the journey as something different.
The puzzles were a very new and refreshing aspect (especially the 'Evil Eye' thingy on map 7 was very outstanding) still not something i'd look forward to play in every map from now on (sometimes a tad to much switchhunting) but i totally approve your intents to try new and different things.

Overall a absolutely admirable mapset. (IMO not really a mapset more a piece of art)

Stuff:

Not sure if mentioned before but spotted stuck Revenant at on of the switch puzzles in map07, you can barely see the head, the second platform on the left side

The Black Skull key is still stated as red when you pick it up

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heyo, thanks for the comments! that pentultimate fight is definitely getting nerfed a smidge.

since no one mentioned it, I'm guessing no one struggled with the final fight? I was worried the mechanics might be unclear and the player would get flooded with AVs, so I'm curious how that went for people.

tourniquet said:

Not sure if mentioned before but spotted stuck Revenant at on of the switch puzzles in map07, you can barely see the head, the second platform on the left side


how strange, I can't seem to reproduce this. maybe I'll throw block monster lines around each platform, maybe he got pushed off into a nearby sector or something

tourniquet said:

The Black Skull key is still stated as red when you pick it up


must've botched a dehacked string. easy fix.

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Ribbiks said:

I was worried the mechanics might be unclear and the player would get flooded with AVs, so I'm curious how that went for people.


Well the purpose of those switches and the timer wasn't very obvious at first but i needed to restart the battle like ~15 times and figured it out after a while. Helped me at least for 3 or 4 iterations afterwards the center was pretty much flooded with mobs and reaching all 4 switches was more or the less suicidal. Very cool gimmick though.

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Not sure if it's intentional but in MAP01 you can skip an entire level by opening the passage to the Purple Key, jumping onto the first pillar and continuing onto the cliff to the right. From there you can go to the final area with a lift leading to the exit, skipping both keys.

Ribbiks said:

since no one mentioned it, I'm guessing no one struggled with the final fight? I was worried the mechanics might be unclear and the player would get flooded with AVs, so I'm curious how that went for people.


Well, like I said I cheated through it. :) Can't say I like the gimmick. It took me a while to figure out what was going on with the switches.

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Map01 could have more ammo. I actually won Map01 and saved just 100 times. I would like to post something about next maps, but my nerves are limited, very limited, so sorry. As usual, it looks nice. I like how you even care how it looks on automap :D
Also, why there is music on Map08,31,32?

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NinjaLiquidator said:

Also, why there is music on Map08,31,32?

I was wondering the same thing too. Ribbiks, will there be 3 more maps that replace map08, 31, and 32, like bonus maps or such? You did add a bonus map for Stardate20x6, called Hyperspace, which replaces map31.

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there will be 3 new maps when I get around to it (next beta will be maps01-10, and rearranged into the original order I intended before prematurely stopping at 7 :p). I'm not sure or not if I'll add a secret map or not. But yeah, the track on m31 will be for one of the new ones, the track on m08 was for one of those nomo "credits" maps that people like complaining about as being pointless (which will be slot11 I think). the midi in m32 was my candidate for secret map music, but I ended up using it as italo-doom map01 midi, so I'll have to find a new one.

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Ribbiks said:

there will be 3 new maps when I get around to it (next beta will be maps01-10, and rearranged into the original order I intended before prematurely stopping at 7 :p). I'm not sure or not if I'll add a secret map or not. But yeah, the track on m31 will be for one of the new ones, the track on m08 was for one of those nomo "credits" maps that people like complaining about as being pointless (which will be slot11 I think). the midi in m32 was my candidate for secret map music, but I ended up using it as italo-doom map01 midi, so I'll have to find a new one.


Okay I see. I hope the maps don't become too overly insane. I've recorded and played your maps when I did playthroughs of Crumpets, Stardate 20x6 on UV and SWTW and boy, they were brutal, but Crumpets was a bit easier than the other two.

Maybe someday I'll tackle Italo. I do plan on doing Sunlust soon.

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as far as insanity goes, I implore you to try sd20x7 on hmp. I made the decision of having skill 3 be the "intended" setting. That is, the map architecture and traps are designed-for and balanced around hmp item placement. hntr is slightly "imbalanced" in the easy direction, and uv is humorously imbalanced in the hard direction. Worth noting that it's not just thing placement that changes, there are a few areas where the mechanics are different even (controlled via voodoo closets of varying configurations between the settings). I've been belaboring this quite a bit, but it's always frustrating to hear players complain about uv being too hard and/or not fun to play when it was designed that way in the first place and there are plenty of accompanying disclaimers that said "hmp is the new uv, uv is the new nightmare".

italo is a bit of piss-taking in slaughtermap form. theoretically beatable (and apparently maxable by doomgod 1%-ers) but I have my doubts that it's as fun to play as it was to make :p

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Ribbiks said:

as far as insanity goes, I implore you to try sd20x7 on hmp. I made the decision of having skill 3 be the "intended" setting. That is, the map architecture and traps are designed-for and balanced around hmp item placement. hntr is slightly "imbalanced" in the easy direction, and uv is humorously imbalanced in the hard direction. Worth noting that it's not just thing placement that changes, there are a few areas where the mechanics are different even (controlled via voodoo closets of varying configurations between the settings). I've been belaboring this quite a bit, but it's always frustrating to hear players complain about uv being too hard and/or not fun to play when it was designed that way in the first place and there are plenty of accompanying disclaimers that said "hmp is the new uv, uv is the new nightmare".

italo is a bit of piss-taking in slaughtermap form. theoretically beatable (and apparently maxable by doomgod 1%-ers) but I have my doubts that it's as fun to play as it was to make :p


I'll take your word for it, except as I said in my previous post, I've beaten Stardate 20x6 on UV, as well as the first 2 levels + the bonus map of SWTW. Right now I'm doing map03 of SWTW, and yes it's hard. However, I think I can beat it on UV.

As for Italo, I did progress a bit on the first map of Italo on UV and believe I can give it a try. I do like slaughtermaps on the other hand but platforming with inescapable pits were my least favourite of all, especially mandatory platforming.

Ribbiks, if you want to check out my playthrough of Stardate 20x6 on UV with 100% kills/secrets continuous on all maps, here it is on YT:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgS1ZoidySwPDCYt-jMJUv263iqQwkhsa

Update: Beaten SWTW map03 on UV with 100% kills/secrets!

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Here’s my review having played it a week ago. UV was as expected, an over exaggerated warning which translated to speedunners will find UV fine whereas casual players will find it overwhelming and are advised to choose HMP for an enjoyable ride. However I did play continuously because when playing a new wad for the first time I prefer a casual and easy going approach otherwise I wouldn’t find the time to finish it if I strictly adhered to pistol starts, no saves, whereas I reserve pistol starts for speedrunning or a stream challenge.

I found it surprisingly manageable given the lengths you went to insisting on the importance of difficulty selection will drastically alter the gameplay experience, as from that note alone I was expecting a gruelling ordeal requiring thorough map knowledge to even begin being considered beatable. In reality I found the majority of this set was fair game, with the exception of each map contained 2-3 challenging sections which were chaotic from their inception and required quick thinking and sharp reflexes with a dose of luck to handle.

MAP01 – Sun/Moon/Stars

First point of criticism is I observe the sky texture and I’ve yet to witness how the choice in map title reflects my current surroundings as I can’t sight any of the aforementioned objects in the sky :P

This was an interesting opener, opting for the low monster count, restricted resources approach. I utilized infighting between the Chaingunners and the Arachnotrons initially and stuck with the trusty Berserk to clear out the main area, then opted to go for the Soulsphere in the pit and targeted the Pinkies first while using the Revs as meat shields for the HK’s in the corner for an ideal distraction before turning my attention towards the pillar imps.

Taking the skull lift to the left building is where things evidently became strenuous with the RL fight being wedged between a Cyber, 2 AV’s and a bunch of Revs, it requires luck hoping the AV’s don’t target you immediately and it is imperative to get the Cyb to distract the majority so you can find a safe spot in the corner, this required a few tries to get right. I liked the cheeky Soulsphere secret unleashing an additional fight which was unexpected.

The rest of the map consisted of these sporadic ambush traps in claustrophobic areas which were interesting, the ending is the most evident example. Last but not least is the unique and uncanny Asian theme, which I haven’t witnessed since Deus Vult II – MAP03 and was a welcome stroke of creativity.

MAP02 – The Other Side

This quadrangle gauntlet clad in morbid brown was immediately reminiscent of Quake, the tightly woven combat areas with the onslaught of teleporter ambushes establishes the Death-Destiny style of gameplay, proceeding from one seemingly absent area to another with minimal room to manoeuvre in and having to adapt to a sudden, chaotic situation quickly before it spirals out of control.

The Plasma trap consisting of several AV’s with PE’s and Imps was fantastically tense as it forces you to prioritize targets, do you deny the potential for a swarm of Lost Souls or remove the more lethal presence of the AV’s, with the narrow corner walls to work with this required moving cleverly to lure the AV’s into an ideal corner position to allow yourself ample room to work with.

The most dangerous encounter goes to the staircase with the onslaught of Revenants in front and Imps from behind, you have no choice but to stand your ground as it’s a true test of skill measuring dodging ability and how aggressive one can be with close quarter rocket spamming and dodging before having to back around the corner.

I couldn’t find the secret to the optional, additional arena fight so I skipped it but I appreciated the inclusion of this trend here and in subsequent levels as a nod to the only other example I can recall which was from Death-Destiny’s Elysian, with a teleporter taking you to a close quarter Cyber and caco fight, in a small, square, outdoor area with rain.

MAP03 – Amethyst III

Here’s where the action begins to heat up fast, with a catchy and adrenaline inducing beat to complement a no man’s land scenario. With no cover to be seen your hard pressed to proceed, choosing between diving right towards a fatal RL fight or heading straight towards the Soulsphere with a very claustrophobic Chaingunner and Revenant ambush while dealing with the distant Mancubie artillery on your heels, it’s a precarious situation to say the least.

The term blindsided comes to mind, what makes this a more dangerous map to contend with in contrast to the last is the reduced movement room the player has to work combined with the absence of cover in most situations, resulting in an ensnared cage. It’s difficult to avoid getting hit given the unorthodox and restrictive layout, yet it’s impossible to proceed cautiously as you are thrown into the frying pan so you are forced to mount a frontal assault.

I was lost a short duration after the pool with the Plasma, it was difficult to locate the path forward given the lifts and openings had narrow passageways that aren’t clearly observable from every angle combined with the obsidian black covering everything. That drop down fight with rockets aligned on a corner curve and the room lowering to create a descended staircase was an ideal example of a lethal DD ambush which demanded quick reflexes to avoid dying immediately by selecting the right targets to kill to create some temporal breathing room.

Again I couldn’t find the secret to the optional fight but neither did I want to neglect it so I noclipped there :P Not too bad, use the Cyber to distract the group but there was no pressure due to the absence of an AV or PE. A nasty map, but fair once you know the monster placements.

MAP04 – Lotus Keep

The foreboding darkness, the grandeur entrance, the unholy trinity of obsidian black, morbid brown and pristine purple, again immediately provoked an undeniable Quake vibe. I felt this played out more like MAP02 but trap the player into a series of uncomfortably, claustrophobic gauntlets. This one didn’t give me as much trouble compared to the prior map as I’m accustomed to these tight situations which require twitch reflexes and on the spot tactics being familiar with monster behaviour patterns in enclosed surroundings.

The recurrence of spawning enemies on nearby platforms with a small frontal group to handle is the unmistakable Death-Destiny setup, the last trap in particular made me have flashbacks to one particularly unforgiving, DD ordeal being ‘The Soulscarred Universe’. With a brooding track comprising the final set piece to strike an ominous atmosphere, I think this is my favourite level of the set, unique and memorable without being overwhelming in challenge.

MAP05 – Grand Ballroom

The first grand slaughter of the day; was surprisingly more easier to tame then anticipated given the generosity in power up placements. The best course of action is to dive into that corner pool with the SSG which provides a safe haven, as the start is otherwise overwhelming once the Revenants begin to pour in, then the strategy boils down to clearing out the main area and proceeding onto the set piece fights that adorn the various side areas.

I was particularly surprised at the western slaughter fight masked behind the Imps on the opening ledge as I thought the inclusion of 2 Megaspheres was strangely generous given the only real pressure stems from the AV’s as there is good room to work with. I also felt underwhelmed at the exit, just flip 180 and smash into the Revs given there was only one or two AV’s and the Cybers aren’t really menacing if you can dodge in such an unorthodox layout that is.

Also yes I was one of those fools who killed the Mancubie on that side ledge and then realized there was an out of place crusher trigger -_-

MAP06 – Sphinx Rising

This was an intriguing creature, starting out in these harsh, black, metallic hallways then suddenly opening into a set of intricately woven purple caverns. A series of close quarter, tactical slaughters ensues, most relying on prioritizing lethal targets to dispatch first all making for intriguing and creative fights. Without a doubt the most impressive effect was passing through the pitch black hall to be teleported into a crimson one.

The finale was a cause for grievance as even while being conservative with a full belt of cell ammo, I was surprised at how long the wave of Barons lasted for given there is nothing to replenish your ammo and I ran out when their were still around 8 roaming around, dealing with the AV’s was a case of good timing and luck with hoping they didn’t act dicks and fire immediately or conveniently used Barons as meat shields. So this required a few attempts given the unreliable nature of the spawns and duration of the encounter coupled with ammo.

MAP07 – Do you believe?

We’re going to end this bloody odyssey with an over 2000 monster bad boy? You betcha!

Well starting out I was expecting a berserk pack to restore me from the prior map’s rape exit, so descending into the first area to be met by an armada of excruciating pain was insufferable, till the Soulsphere in the corner was revealed. I liked the Megasphere fight with the Revenants and Imps on two adjoining platforms which provide you with a timer to clear one side before they lower and make a clear escape because it’s a fair design choice, as the player with uncanny dodging ability will retain most of the rejuvenating effect of a much needed price.

On the other hand I didn’t fully understand the design principle with the corner fight with the crimson walls and turret Chaingunners which spawn endlessly if you tried to kill them (perhaps inspired by Death-Destiny’s Disturbia in that regard?). As it boils down to having to hug the corner, hoping the hitscanners don’t get a bead on you as they essentially can’t be killed, while duking back and forth between the various waves that spawn which wasn’t a cause of too much grievance, but the fact you have no choice but to avoid the Chaingunners and forcing the player to take inevitable damage was a dickish design choice.

The Black Skull key area was pretty cool, again emphasising quick reflexes under pressure with minimal room to work with, however that subsequent teleporter with the 2 PE’s and 2 AV’s on the sides was a little silly as it needed luck running beneath both walls hoping you don’t get blasted you in time.

Hooray for me I found the optional fight with the Pinkie horde, side ledge imps with distant Cybers on the walls. This was a barrel of fun, tearing into the horde with BFG shots while timing movement patterns between the corners so as not to get trapped nor snagged on a rocket. The addition of the AV’s afterwards was unexpected and tense but given the amount of corpses in their immediate vicinity, I see they would inevitably begin resurrecting and would find it hard to target you, which is a good thing given their was barely any cover in that area to begin with.

Then I arrive at the penultimate area and holy shit this was serious business! That is after hitting the switch to reveal the swarm of Revenants, what made this fight a real ordeal is the fact you can’t rely on the obvious tactic of trying to lure them forwards slightly, then running past them to begin circle strafing because of that cheeky linedef near the bottom of the stairs which unleashes the cluster of AV’s at the back.

Instead I had to let them move right up to near the back of the hall, then make a suicidal rush into the crowd on one side when there was ample room, then stay by the 4 Megaspheres and stash of cells and do some pseudo circle strafing and diving back into the hall. I couldn’t work out a reliable strategy for this encounter as with the one I devised it’s easy to get caught and trapped so it required a few tries and good luck, but I’m wondering if their is an intended method which you can’t fuck up easily.

The grand finale felt like Sunder – MAP08 – Pale Monument’s last room. I understood the purpose of the switches acted as a temporary timer to deny the AV’s from spawning in the corresponding corners which had purple walls, but after the swarm began to grow large I found it near impossible to reach those switches so it boiled down to a case of save scumming, circling around the room, taking BFG shots at straggler AV’s and relying on infighting till the second set of supplies were revealed in those side walls.

A satisfying conclusion ending with a frenetic bloodbath. Overall another masterfully woven and articulate set, as I haven’t played the first Stardate since its release I’m unable to make a comparison based on how authentic this felt to the original’s design, but nonetheless this was certainly an irresistible ride from beginning to end.

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Wow! I'm not really sure how to navigate through maps yet. I'm currently trying to figure that out - prompted by how amazing your MAP01 is! Holy Shit!

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wowzers, thanks krypto for the detailed commentary! Glad you liked the set. I find HMP to be much more "fun" but it's interesting to hear UV opinions of highly skilled players. One drawback of skill 4 is that the difficulty curve is a bit wack, especially for continuous play (practical-joke tier cyb and bfg on map01, map03 is lolzy harder than the following maps). I'm actually considering tuning UV a little bit to be more balanced throughout (notably slight nerfs to m01 / m03), but I won't do that until I have the final map order sorted (the next beta of this will have ~3 new maps, whenever I get around to mapping again).

Also yes, that room in map04 is heavily inspired by that one room in dr2008_10. I'm a thief :p

The idea behind the last fight in m06 was to force the player to ignore the barons (well, as many as can be ignored given the space restriction), focus the AVs, then clean up the rest. Alternatively, I wanted to create a fight where the player was supposed to kill barons on the opposite end of the area such that they wouldn't have enough ammo if they kept getting rezzed by waves of AVs. I really liked the idea, but I'm not confident I created a fight that executes the idea well.

I have similar concerns about the cg towers in map07, I put them in there as a blatant rip from cc2_24, but the fight dynamics don't capitalize on it in any interesting way. I might completely redo that area tbh, it feels creatively empty to me at the moment :p.

everennui said:

Wow! I'm not really sure how to navigate through maps yet. I'm currently trying to figure that out - prompted by how amazing your MAP01 is! Holy Shit!


That map is kind of confusing, my apologies :p. I tried to vary the playstyle of the maps (at least, more than I usually do), possibly at the expense of "cohesion", but m01 was my attempt at making a small casual exploratory thing.

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Ribbiks said:

I'm actually considering tuning UV a little bit to be more balanced throughout

Uhh, I thought it was going to be cranked up instead?.. The only way to deter folks from playing it on their first go is to make it as painful as nochance or something, so that only curious masochists would try their hand in it after they beat the thing on hmp. Otherwise the statement "play hmp, uv is unbalanced and unfair" becomes exaggerated, this is where I agree with Krypto.
I take the blame for not shouting "too easy on uv!" frequently enough, then!

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heh idk, you and krypto aren't normal players though :p. I've seen enough mid-fight save-scumming disasters to have me convinced most players will more than struggle with it as is. I guess "nerf" was the wrong word, but imo uv would be a bit improved if it were a tad more... monotonic.. the changes I have in mind at the moment:

m01: cyb/bfg given out, which wrecks uv-continuous balance for no good reason (not that I care too much about that, but it does feel off having those things so early, as wh mentioned). fight will probably be rebalanced around PG.

m03: pacing feels a little off. I'm thinking of ways to shift some of the action further into the map's progression (e.g. less mobs in the initial clusterfuck, but maybe some repopulations later in the map, like after keygrabs)

m05: a bit too generous with resources, perhaps

m07 key routes should be a bit rougher such that the penultimate room feels like slightly less of a spike by comparison.

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It's cool that HMP is the intended difficulty but all the UV-Max ubermensch will still record on UV and the rest of the community will want to play on the same level as the big boys. I remember struggling with one of the Sunlust fights on HMP, looked up a video on it and saw how different that map played on UV. Made me feel like I wasn't getting the full experience playing on a lower difficulty.

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@ Ribbiks: I agree that the line is somewhat thin, yet at the same time, say, eaxt, nochance or, speaking of you R&D, italo-doom (all to a varying degree) allow one to say that, while technically beatable and maxable, these maps on UV (and with no other options in case of italo) definitely feel more like a grindy chore rather than fun experience, and they exchange demanding but clever combat design for grotesque bloodbath, in case of eaxt and nochance leaving the former for hmp. Not to diminish their worth or something (the fact that I don't really like overt exaggerations wouldn't allow me to call them shit for that alone, heh; moreover, it was their respective authors' intention, and what can be spoken against the artist?), I'm just trying to say that deliberately making the game unfun on hard difficulty and thus removing all but die-hard masochists with nerves of steel and aeons of free time on their hands from the board is the only effective way to promote lower difficulty setting as a default one.

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thanks :D. it's a recolor of a sky made by... Mechadon if I'm not mistaking. fleshing out the texturing credits is on my todo list before releasing the next beta.

@demo: The upward shift was motivated by me wanting headroom to implement a not-quite-serious-but-not-completely-unfun higher "bonus" setting (without resorting to --solo-net or some such). The intention isn't quite to be esoteric or completely bullshitty (though I flip-flop on this daily :p), but mostly for my own entertainment to see how fights (largely balanced for hmp) can have their ratchets cranked to a higher level of dickery. The point of contention comes when sharing the mapset obviously, where the UV-default is substandard to HMP (with respect to how much effort went into making it fun for myself, personally). The reason I was vocal with disclaimers was to mitigate the inevitable die-die-die-ragequits, but I understand your point that maybe going even harder might get that across more effectively (and perhaps could avoid the claims being seen as hyperbolic by the maximum-hardcore clique). There also might've been a better way to implement the idea in the first place (I was humoring having -skill 2 be the the hardest, and have 3/4 be "hntr"/"hmp" equivalents, respectively, heh.), or maybe it would've just been better not to do it at all :p

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You could change the difficult setting names: HNTR becomes HMP, HMP becomes UV, UV comes MAX HARDCORE (actually that sounds like porn). The numerous egomaniacs will still get to say they played on UV, because they actually did! And of course, you can even slot that higher-skill version in the -skill 2 slot, now that it's no longer named HNTR.

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You know, I'm really curious what certain people would do in that situation. Would, say, Suitepee, who always plays on UV, pick "UV" (actually HMP) or whatever's above it (actually UV)? :P

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@ Ribbiks: I see, yet here comes the inevitable side effect - people still play it on UV and complain about stuff, while our mutual agreement (hehe) made me merely shouting "too easy, make it harder" when I played UV, with only a small bunch of more "reasonable" minor qualms I never even insisted on taking into consideration, and those were spoken mostly because I got used to dissection of everything I play.
Still, forgot to tell that I'm satisfied with what you've done to 04 at the very least, those AVs in the stairs area is an exemplary over-the-top dickery that made me laugh, the whole map is quite unfriendly, basically. Good work.

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So, I got back around to playing this, and have absolutely hit the wall at map 06's rocket launcher fight.

How on earth are you supposed to beat this? I just spent two hours grinding attempts at this one fight without finding anything that looks like it might be possible at all. You have to go for the rocket launcher immediately, because the chaingunners and Vile top-side kill you if you don't. Once you do, the pincher is so extreme that there's no way you can punch through it with rocket launcher DPS, and it's guaranteed to close on you. You don't have enough room to escape it, you don't have the DPS to kill it, and the closest thing to a camping spot is guaranteed to get overrun.

I'm at a total loss.

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