Theoretical Discussion: The Valiant Bestiary

[baja blast rd.]

This thread exists mostly for idle musing and discussion, not for any practical purposes. Feel free to share your thoughts on any of the new monsters.

The Daedabus: It's somewhat ironic, yes, but giving a monster a stronger attack doesn't always make it more fun to fight! I think one of the base requirements for enjoyable combat it is that it should be possible to go mano a mano (or mano a mancubuso) with a single monster, or even a cluster, without hugging cover. Dodging mechanisms should be more complex than "run the hell away the instant it attacks and stay holed up for a couple of seconds." So the Daedabus has a much more specialized role than its weaker cousin, that of a projectile-hell generator or, in groups, a temporary roadblock meant to be quickly evaded from. The Daedabus is an infight wrecker the likes of which most single monsters -- or even clusters -- stand nary a chance of defeating, which further compromises their flexibility. But they look cool.

The Pyro Knight: I consider this to be Valiant's strongest new monster. It's almost as flexible as the revenant. The multi-attack repertoire -- armed with weaker attacks to complement its inferno beam -- is a nice touch. Of course, you want the Pyro Knight's strongest attack, but if that's all it has, using a bunch of them in one battle might be tricky: they could be too formidable and force coverhugging, and/or they could wreak even more havoc than they do via infighting.

[scifista42]

I just wanted to point out, for convenience, that a list of all Valiant monsters along with their official names (or so I assume) is available on Valiant's doomwiki page. I'll write my thoughts on them later.

[skillsaw]

Cybruiser - 22 years later I still sometimes get sweaty palms when I fight Cyberdemons. The threat of instant death is terrifying. Cybruisers exist to allow me to evoke that terror of instant death without having to fall into the trap of grindiness that maps can suffer from when there are too many Cyberdemons. Still, I made sure to introduce them REALLY late in the megawad because I know instant death shit all over the place can be pretty off putting.

Arachnorb - Blowing away weak monsters is awesome. Dodging projectiles is awesome. Monsters that can fly are awesome. Doom is sorely lacking a monster that provides those three qualities.

Super Mancubus - Exists to infight. Everyone thinks he's terrible (me included). I almost deleted him from the wad a few times but I think he's too perfect on MAP19. For some reason I just love the idea of opening that MAP19 secret and getting 10 or so Super Mancubi to use as pawns for infighting as a reward. And they smoke the Cybers!

Super Vile - I like to pretend that this guy is a digital extension of my middle finger, in space.

Suicide Bomber - As with the Arachnorb (or the custom zombies in Lunatic) show, I really like the idea of expanding Doom's selection of weak monsters. Whereas the Arachnorb gave me a weak flyer, and the Lunatic zombies gave me access to weak, spammable projectile monsters, the Suicide Bomber gives me access to a weak monster that can induce quite a bit of panic on the player's part. I think they're amazing.

Pyro Knight - Revenant #2, and basically used like a revenant as a midrange threat but I was really careful (I think??? Maybe not on MAP13 HEH) to make sure they always appeared in front of the player because it's kind of annoying when one hits you in the back with four huge fireballs for like a thousand damage.

[Rayziik]

While I agree that doom is severely lacking in the flying monster category, damn I hate those arachnorbs. Especially when they pop out of an arachnotron.

No offense, skillsaw :P

[baja blast rd.]

Thanks for the contribution to the thread skillsaw. Always nice to hear thoughts from the source.

Rayzik said:

While I agree that doom is severely lacking in the flying monster category, damn I hate those arachnorbs. Especially when they pop out of an arachnotron.

No offense, skillsaw :P

I'm considering using something similar for my default SS Nazi replacement. That or an arachnorb that uses the former human trooper's attack but more quickly, almost like a flying chaingunner. >:-D

[Rayziik]

rdwpa said:

I'm considering using something similar for my default SS Nazi replacement. That or an arachnorb that uses the former human trooper's attack but more quickly, almost like a flying chaingunner. >:-D

The implications of such a monster could be devastating.

[baja blast rd.]

Random thought: I personally think it would be cool if many more small releases (single wads, short episodes) featured a small number (1-4) of well-crafted custom monsters, alongside the mainstays of the bestiary. Longer releases are perhaps a greater risk in that regard. Custom monsters get a bad rep I suppose because of all the my-first-ZDoom-project nonsense, but well thought-out monsters that introduce new combat dynamics can really make an experience fresher.

[Rayziik]

rdwpa said:

Random thought: I personally think it would be cool if many more small releases (single wads, short episodes) featured a small number (1-4) of well-crafted custom monsters, alongside the mainstays of the bestiary. Longer releases are perhaps a greater risk in that regard. Custom monsters get a bad rep I suppose because of all the my-first-ZDoom-project nonsense, but well thought-out monsters that introduce new combat dynamics can really make an experience fresher.

Hehe, my current project messes around with a bunch of stuff. Hopefully it doesn't fall into that trap though. I would hate for it to fall flat because of that.

[scifista42]

First I'd like to say that I like all of them. They're all good at keeping the player moving. Now in particular, ordered by my most favorite to least favorite ones:

1. Super imp - Weakling with fast projectiles = YES.
2. Arachnorb - Like Super imp, bonus points for flying, but points down for infinite refire AND tendency to form swarms.
3. Pyro Knight - Truly decent mid-tier challenger.
4. Super demon - Truly decent melee attacker.
5. Super mancubus - Great new high-tier enemy, I feel that Doom lacks them.
6. Super Vile - Good at keeping the player moving and busy.
7. Lightning Orb - Same as above, could have been used in regular maps too, but I'm fine with restricting it for boss battle.
8. Cybruiser - I'd like him more if he wasn't grey, anyway I also don't like his potential for causing random deaths, but his relatively small body + small health + extreme damage can be used in good ways too.
9. Suicide Bomber - I find it "cheap" that you either kill him fast-enough and take no damage, or you don't and usually take heavy damage. Also, he tends to become a joke when he can be outsmarted (killed safely), and a huge annoyance when he can't. That's about all his potential usage.

[40oz]

skillsaw said:

Cybruiser - 22 years later I still sometimes get sweaty palms when I fight Cyberdemons. The threat of instant death is terrifying. Cybruisers exist to allow me to evoke that terror of instant death without having to fall into the trap of grindiness that maps can suffer from when there are too many Cyberdemons. Still, I made sure to introduce them REALLY late in the megawad because I know instant death shit all over the place can be pretty off putting.

Arachnorb - Blowing away weak monsters is awesome. Dodging projectiles is awesome. Monsters that can fly are awesome. Doom is sorely lacking a monster that provides those three qualities.

Super Mancubus - Exists to infight. Everyone thinks he's terrible (me included). I almost deleted him from the wad a few times but I think he's too perfect on MAP19. For some reason I just love the idea of opening that MAP19 secret and getting 10 or so Super Mancubi to use as pawns for infighting as a reward. And they smoke the Cybers!

Super Vile - I like to pretend that this guy is a digital extension of my middle finger, in space.

Suicide Bomber - As with the Arachnorb (or the custom zombies in Lunatic) show, I really like the idea of expanding Doom's selection of weak monsters. Whereas the Arachnorb gave me a weak flyer, and the Lunatic zombies gave me access to weak, spammable projectile monsters, the Suicide Bomber gives me access to a weak monster that can induce quite a bit of panic on the player's part. I think they're amazing.

Pyro Knight - Revenant #2, and basically used like a revenant as a midrange threat but I was really careful (I think??? Maybe not on MAP13 HEH) to make sure they always appeared in front of the player because it's kind of annoying when one hits you in the back with four huge fireballs for like a thousand damage.

Are there really that many monsters in valiant? I didn't get very far before i decided to switch over to vaccinated edition. I noticed hell barons and imps were gone, but most of the original beastiary was intact. Where did you get all the states?

[scifista42]

From the MBF-specific extended range of states, I suppose.

[Gez]

40oz said:

Where did you get all the states?

MBF adds over a hundred states to the table, between dogs, beta lost souls, beta BFG (40 states just for the firing frames!), and new explosive effects (red and green plasma, grenades).

Then some monsters are entirely sacrificed (no normal barons or knights for example) and there you are.

[skillsaw]

I also used the states from some decorations (both green and both blue torches) and probably also the lite amp goggles and the allmap. But yeah, I'm surprised MBF dehacked stuff hasn't been used more - the flexibility compared to just Boom is a pretty huge upgrade.

[Yugiboy85]

rdwpa said:

almost like a flying chaingunner. >:-D

NO. You don't. Ever.

[Tosi]

The_Trigger said:

NO. You don't. Ever.

How about a flying chaingunner with the abilities of the arch-vile and pain elemental and the health of a cyberdemon? I'll call him Steve.

[Spectre01]

The_Trigger said:

NO. You don't. Ever.

Project Brutality actually has an elite Arachnotron variant that flies and has a chaingun similar to the Mastermind. It's a really cool enemy.