"level up" in DOOM game!

[pro_zealot]

So what you guys think this is to much for me. I can take glory kills as part of the new DOOM game and glowing bodies but this is to much now instead of play there will be meditation about where i should invest my points to level up and in the end everybody will be play in diffrent game - diffrent tree like in RPG this is not FALLOUT 4 i have to remind this!!.

[AirRaid]

You have misunderstood the information given to you.

There is no skill tree, no branching paths. You collect some kind of thing from certain strong enemies and it allows you to increase your max HP or Ammo once in a while. It's less complex even than Wolfenstein: The New Order's perk system.

[Voros]

Like the Soulsphere or Megasphere, increases the armor and health beyond 100.

Or Strife, and how you could permanently increase your HP to 350 (that's what I remember).

Nothing big really. Just a small perk to help you with the game.

[DooM_RO]

AirRaid said:

You have misunderstood the information given to you.

Probably deliberately. It seems to be a trend surrounding this game.

It's not leveling up at all. The Runes seem to work in a similar way to the Tarot Cards in Painkiller and the upgrades are in many ways like the Backpack pickup. Stuff that you can find in the world to increase your health, ammo capacity and speed. Very Doomlike actually. Marty Stratton also explicitly stated that "you are not building a character"

[pro_zealot]

Id didn't want to dive too much into the customization options, but we were told Doom features three tiers of upgrades for the space marine. White chests found in the world contain items called argent cells that allow you to increase your ammo, armor, and health capabilities. The second tier of upgrades are enhancement tokens which are usually found on fallen elite guards. The tokens improve general capability categories such as agility and equipment efficiency. The final upgrade type is a rune, which can be combined to tweak your skills to particular play styles. If you die often, a rune can be tapped to activate a saving throw that slows time when your health dips below 25 percent.

this is from article - there is not level up term but 3 tiers of upgrades what is it then?

[DooM_RO]

They are TYPES of upgrades. One makes you character better, the second make you weapons better and the third function like Painkiller Cards.

For example, a red potion vial that permanently increases your health capacity by 5% or an item that lets you carry 5 extra shotgun shells. What's not Doom about that?

[pro_zealot]

I read somewhare that you got point for glory kills so you can spend them at your character tree. - this is not DOOM style.

[Jaxxoon R]

My guess is that you can't actually read and were just staring at a block of tofu for 40 seconds. Happens to the best of us.

[DooM_RO]

pro_zealot said:

I read somewhare that you got point for glory kills so you can spend them at your character tree. - this is not DOOM style.

That's not true. Was it that german article? It must have been a mistranslation or they were referring to the "Fallen Elite guards" (which drop the second Tier)

Plus, Marty explicitly says "You are not leveling up a character"

THE END.

[Tetzlaff]

DooM_RO said:

That's not true. Was it that german article? It must have been a mistranslation or they were referring to the "Fallen Elite guards" (which drop the second Tier)

I don't think so, in the PCGames article they just mention upgrades, the Doom Marine becoming more powerful when the game progresses, and weapon mods. Nothing about skill trees.

[DooM_RO]

Tetzlaff said:

I don't think so, in the PCGames article they just mention upgrades, the Doom Marine becoming more powerful when the game progresses, and weapon mods. Nothing about skill trees.

Id have talked a number of times about how they disliked skill trees and that when they give you something, they really want to make you feel like you got an awesome new ability. They dislike breadcrumb XP grinding like the rest of us do...although a God of War style system that makes soul orbs spill out of enemies the more efficiently you kill them is something I would like to see but that's personal. Maybe I'll make something like that in SnapMap.

[LANEGRACABRA]

Didn't we upgrade shit in Heretic and Hexen too? I know not Doom, but very much Doom-like and best kind of old school FPS's.

[wheresthebeef]

DooM_RO said:

although a God of War style system that makes soul orbs spill out of enemies the more efficiently you kill them is something I would like to see but that's personal.

Thats already in the game, however you get ammo and health instead of XP

The perk system they have in Doom sounds awesome. You do specific stuff to unlock new abilities, something like in Zelda or, that one game id made previously.... I think it was called Aggression? Pissy? Something like that?

[id.dav]

I don't see how exactly leveling up or upgrading in new Doom makes it worse or not Doom-like? It doesn't matter what elements you add to the game, what matters is how well it's balanced. Balance is the magic. So it's ok to have upgrade and leveling up or whatever in Doom only if it's justified...if it's there just cos it's some modern trend then it sucks.
Balance matters - element doesn't.

[Phml]

It should be obvious it's there because it's the normal thing to do nowadays, not because of any balance concern. Collecting stuff and gaining experience for that addictive reward system loop, all the best if it's disguised as something else, flaunt the authentic character of the new game and have the fanboys defend their casino mechanics for them.

(Don't get me wrong, I'm a sheep like everyone else and I love mindless loot even in FPS. Hundreds of hours in Borderlands can attest to that. Even worse, all this time spent scouring for permanent upgrades in Bioshock or Wolfenstein NWO. You know the rat treadmill has you by the balls when you knowingly waste your time in a one-playthrough game.)

It takes away from the nature of Doom and that shouldn't even need to be discussed. Classic Doom is an arcade game you can pick up and go, even Doom 3 despite its modern (at the time) tendencies kept the whole start game, load level, play mentality. The more permanent progress of any kind you add, the more you move away from that model.

Also worth keeping in mind character progression is a way to do away with the player skill paradigm, just present a constant challenge through the game and the monkey behind the gamepad (face it, this is the target audience) doesn't have to improve any to experience increasingly intense fights. So this actually affects balance... in a negative way. It's almost guaranteed you will not need to be any better at the game 10 hours in than you are 2 hours in, Doom 4 is unlikely rock the boat on this.

Most people won't care, I certainly don't, but anyone who blames someone else for caring is an imbecile. People need to stop confusing good business design for good game design (and the reverse is true, to be fair. Anyone expecting AAA releases to have gameplay depth in situations where accessibility would have to be sacrificed is foolish).

[DooM_RO]

They said they don't want the player to feel like they are on a treadmill. Marty said in an interview that when they give us something they really want to make us feel like they gave us an awesome new ability.

[Tetzlaff]

What if 1993 id Software came up with a good idea to include some sort of score-based reward system in Doom? They had a highscore in Wolfenstein 3D, but they had no idea how to make it a worthy gameplay mechainism. It was basicly pointless. So they dropped the score in Doom.

[Enforcer]

Well you do complete challenges along the way. .like kill 2 possessed with one shotgun blast or like find 3 secrets. .with a progression bar on the HUD and everything. .wonder what happens when you complete a challenge. .Some Russian site said you get mods for your weapons for doing these. .but maybe they just fucked up on the info

[AirRaid]

You might also get the hack modules for MP from those challenges.

From their twitter:

ICYMI: Hack Modules are consumable passive abilities unlocked playing the game, NOT through microtransactions. We’ll share more info soon.

[TheGamePhilosophe]

AirRaid said:

You have misunderstood the information given to you.

There is no skill tree, no branching paths. You collect some kind of thing from certain strong enemies and it allows you to increase your max HP or Ammo once in a while. It's less complex even than Wolfenstein: The New Order's perk system.

Hugo Martin recently said this:

"When you encounter a Revenant in Doom, you’ll need to stay on your toes[...]I like to get him to hold still with a well-placed stun shot from the Plasma Rifle. (You need to mod the Plasma Rifle to add a stun effect… so if you’re like me, you’ll invest in this mod early on.)"

That is in fact a skill tree he is describing. You put points into weapons (and probably health/speed/armor too) to upgrade them, and the fact that you make choices about how to "invest" them means they are a limited resource, doled out gradually.

If that is not "leveling up" your character, what is?

[Jaxxoon R]

Except it's been established that those weapon mods are found by exploring the levels.

[RaikohZX]

I saw one person ranting and raving about how the upgrade system means the game's unbalanced because "if you somehow don't find any of these upgrades, that's it, you're gonna be wondering why the hell you're doing less damage to this baron and it's because you missed an upgrade," but i'm pretty sure absolutely nothing indicated in the Game Informer articles or otherwise that raw damage values ever change. It's moreso the player gets more capable and the weapon mods give them new functionality, not outright stats-ing it up.

For some reason player upgrades and weapon mods are making people think, "Oh god not Borderlands again." I swear people are just going out of their way to kneejerk and overreact on either misinformation or sheer dislike for the game as a whole to create nitpicks that aren't there.

[wheresthebeef]

Do you get to pick what the weapon mods do, or do you simply find specific mods laying around?
As in, is the plasma rifle stun shot always going to be in the vent above the dopefish (not an actual location) or will there just always be a weapon mod in that vent but you get to choose what it unlocks?

[MrHofmann]

You're not building a character. There is no leveling up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrIMb-ro-UI&t=16m17s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrIMb-ro-UI&t=17m56s

[MrHofmann]

It was confirmed that you need to find secrets in order to get weapon mods, but I'm not sure whether you find those mods in secret areas, or you "buy" them using points from discovering secrets. My guess is that you get some sort of points from completing specific challenges (like find 3 secrets challenge in the Conan video), and then you can use those points to chose/upgrade your mods. Yes there probably will be choices to make, but i don't think those choices will be mutually exclusive i.e. you can have all the mods and you probably will at some point in the game if you hunt down all the challenges, there is no perk tree (like in Skyrim).

[Tetzlaff]

I understand that you find ready to use weapon mods coviniently placed in the level. Sometimes hidden as a reward for exploration, but sometimes it could also just sit there in your face, if the designer decided that the player should not continue without that weapon mod.

Then you can equip your weapon with one mod at a time. If you collected several mods for the shotgun for example, you can freely chose if you use the grenade launcher attachment or the burst shot. You can switch the mods at any time. Unused weapon mods are stored in your inventory (I think?). That's how I understand this system could work well without the use of skill trees or a credit system to buy things.

wheresthebeef said:

Do you get to pick what the weapon mods do, or do you simply find specific mods laying around?

I think it's the latter. Otherwise it would practically finding credit points and buying whichever weapon mod you want.

[TheGamePhilosophe]

Hofmann said:

You're not building a character. There is no leveling up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrIMb-ro-UI&t=16m17s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrIMb-ro-UI&t=17m56s

Semantics, you moron. Stratton can call it whatever he wants. "I'm not building a character, I'm building a save." Right, whatever. But a rose by any other name is still a rose.

[DooM_RO]

TheGamePhilosophe said:

Semantics, you moron. Stratton can call it whatever he wants. "I'm not building a character, I'm building a save." Right, whatever. But a rose by any other name is still a rose.

You probably shouldn't call other people morons.

[Jaxxoon R]

I don't see how finding weapon mods that give you new abilities can be considered leveling up. By that logic, finding weapons in classic Doom is a form of leveling up.

[AirRaid]

TheGamePhilosophe said:

Hugo Martin recently said this:

"When you encounter a Revenant in Doom, you’ll need to stay on your toes[...]I like to get him to hold still with a well-placed stun shot from the Plasma Rifle. (You need to mod the Plasma Rifle to add a stun effect… so if you’re like me, you’ll invest in this mod early on.)"

That is in fact a skill tree he is describing. You put points into weapons (and probably health/speed/armor too) to upgrade them, and the fact that you make choices about how to "invest" them means they are a limited resource, doled out gradually.

If that is not "leveling up" your character, what is?

But if you can literally choose whatever mod you like whenever you get to unlock one from the elite demon kills or whatever, then it's not really a skill tree at all, just a choice of awesome weapon upgrades. Also, those "points" or whatever they are going to be called, are just one of a couple of ways of unlocking weapon mods, apparently.

Please stop being a dick to people or you'll find yourself in the Loser forum.