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MaxRideWizardLord

Double barrel, or super shotgun is so damn cheap, boring, overused and overpowered.

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That double noobtube of doom 2 is probably the most overused weapon in whole game that you end up using almost all of the time with only rare exceptions.

The damage of this weapon is way too high and far, FAR from balanced compared to single shotgun which is weak, but great as starting\first weapon you use, good for medium range against imps\zombienpc too, but at the cost of just one more shell ammo use for fire, ssg becomes like 3 (or sometimes feels like even 4) times more powerful than shotgun which makes no-sense and is not realistic as it doesn't follow basic logic of classical math as 1+1=\=3(or more). This makes you being able to kill Cacodemon and Pain elemental in just two shots and sometimes (even though, very rarely) kill arachnotron in two shots too, and even stunlock\cause pain to Arch-Vile up close, while originally I'd look for cover. You would even give up single shotgun and use ssg instead just against one chaingunner most of the time, since even though random bullet spread of shotgun is tighter than of ssg, a much higher amount of bullets you fire per shot from ssg even with much bigger spread, guarantees you will kill chaingunner almost always even at medium-long range, while there is still chance chaingunner will survive a shotgun shot even up medium-close range, which makes this weapon a lot more braindead to use than actually bother to make a proper aim and appeals for those with bad aim.

Sure, BFG9000 is overpowered too compared to plasmagun and over can be abused to even 1-2 shot to kill Cyber up close. But it's hard and often very risky to use BFG9000 on it's full potential, and often even impossible as you can't get too close to say Cyber and result using plasmagun more often than BFG9000, and it's not like you would waste limited ammo using BFG9000 against a bunch of lost souls when plasmagun would be better in this situation (or especially, the boring overpowered ssg). Also, cells, i.e. ammo for it is often so rare, even in most doom 2 megawads\mappacks so you won't using it all of the time and often end up using it very situationally in the times of real need for BFG9000 where using other weapon just becomes very dangerous or not do enough damage for you to escape and survive. While same ammo for rockets are usually much much more rare and less than ammo for shotguns, bullets are too compared to shells, and cells often being extremelly rare in original doom games (compared to same shells at least).

Instant burst damage makes this weapon too easy to cleaning a room full of zombienps\imps in vision mostly in just one shot without much risk unlike with stream-like damage weapon (plasmagun, chaingun). In multiplayer, especially on survivoval server with ammo respawn disabled, ssg becomes like the only one weapon 75% of players use all the time due it's low ammo cost - high damage\dps outcome. Double barrel is probably one of the boring and most annoying weapon to watch anyone fight with, at least for me, as it end up the user using it for about 90% of time. Oh and deathmatch... that is where abusing ssg gets on next level. Cheap corner killing, door camping, telecamping, rushing braindead and still being able to instakill at close-medium range anyone even with green armour and even if you land shot not so accurate to the enemy marine. Especially CTF, that just become one ssg rush fest where not just 90% of players use it, but about 97% of players. Often there are maps in dm that consist nothing more but ssg only, and even midi music plays that use nothing more but soundfiles of ssg fire and reload, which makes game annoying, boring, disgusting and lame to the maximum. Sure, there been lots of ssg nerf mods\addons on those dm\tlms servers used often back in the days that nerf ssg a lot to a point it does not more damage than two shotgun shots, but seems no one use them nowaydays, at least in zandronum.

One of the reason I still play Doom 1 over Doom 2 sometimes is because at least it doesn't have this darn op boomstick.

Does anyone know any mod that nerf and balancing ssg along with shotgun in terms of ammo-power, and probably makes even slightly more accurate with lesser spread-cone, so it won't be just be luck based overpowered noob gun??

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Spoiler

ROFL someone got owned in a DM recently methinks

Right off the bat, I will concede: If the SG shot 9 pellets and the SSG shot 18, I think they'd be a bit better balanced. With that said, if you're playing SP and using the SSG at med-long range rather than the RL or Chaingun, you aren't using it right.

The SSG enabled Doom mapping to grow so much more in the early formative years than it would have if we only had Doom1.. The SSG can be used to clear rooms full of big tough baddies, but it's still far slower at doing so than a BFG, or than taking a step back and pumping rockets. Large waves of enemies are now manageable, and yet you still have the thrill of being attacked from all sides on many occasions.

It's a little OP, but I'll be damned if it 'breaks the game' or anything like that. You ever tried a DM with no SSG? It gets boring as hell. Learning when and when not to use it is simply a part of Doom2's skill curve.

I really do think it was made so awesome because if it wasn't, it would have been lame as hell for a "new gun". I honestly think the game would feel very incomplete without it, which would have resulted in smaller hoards of enemies (what a horrible thought)

That's just my stance though.

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I think mappers should delay giving it to the player. It is a good gun to use when the amount and the power of enemies escalates. The new Doom 2 enemies have a lot of health.

Also the maps should contain sniping sections, too, so the player has to use other guns. Or not having an overabundance of shotgun ammo, so the other guns have to be used.

So the balancing is totally up to the mapper(s) creating a map/megawad.

Ammo-wise the SSG is way too efficient compared to the rest of the basic guns. For example, to kill a Baron of Hell with the chaingun you would need to spend a ton of ammo...

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Doomkid said:

......You ever tried a DM with no SSG? It gets boring as hell.


THIS, +1. I can't even imagine a deathmatch without SSG. The only exception is episode 1 of ultimate doom, which is basically a rocket spamming simualtor. In my opinion, instead of editing SSG, we better buff the single shotgun with more pellets or faster firing rate.

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SSG is the weakest primary-usage weapon for gauntlet maps full of mid-tier monsters (not counting the 'zerk fist). It's a good starter weapon in that respect.

+1 to what Doomkid said.

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Job said:

Maybe the shotgun should do half the damage of the SSG. Hmm...


shotgun is already perfectly balanced, especially compared to all other weapons in game, it's great in beginning and still is perfect even at late level. In fact, it still feels more powerful than chaingun to me. Shotgun is burst damage, so instakill enemy is always more safier than just cause damage to it with bullet spreading weapon and fire it untill it dead. I know that chaingun have higher dps and if use with tiny delay, can be used as sniper, but shotgun does overall more damage in total than chaingun can to, since shotgun do 7 bullets per fire and have 100 shells in total, and chaingun can only do one bulltet per fire and have maximum of 400 ammo. Since in Doom 1 there are still more shells than bullets, you'd end up using shotgun far more often than chaingun anyway, and in terms of damage, it's already too powerful for first pickup weapon.

GhostlyDeath said:

You could do some tyson, only pistol and fist are permitted. You also have to kill everything at least once. It can be quite a challenge.


Why should do that when ssg is just powerful enough and there is always shells to not care about some weird ass "tyson" strategy? :v Sure you can also try to beat whole doom 2 on HoE using only fist, although that is not the point of this thread.

Doomkid said:

Right off the bat, I will concede: If the SG shot 9 pellets and the SSG shot 18, I think they'd be a bit better balanced. With that said, if you're playing SP and using the SSG at med-long range rather than the RL or Chaingun, you aren't using it right.

The SSG enabled Doom mapping to grow so much more in the early formative years than it would have if we only had Doom1.. The SSG can be used to clear rooms full of big tough baddies, but it's still far slower at doing so than a BFG, or than taking a step back and pumping rockets. Large waves of enemies are now manageable, and yet you still have the thrill of being attacked from all sides on many occasions.


Shotgun is already perfectly balanced, there is no need to buff other balanced weapon only because it uses same ammo as the overpowered broken one. Also, despite the famous fallacy that ssg is not effective at med-long range, well, it is. Unless you have rocket launcher AND is both asure there will not be any jump off enemies that teleport in your face once you start firing at safe range, there is still a huge chance that you will hit most of enemies with ssg, at least it's 50% of bullets which is still would be more effective and higher DPS than shotgun that still have high chance of miss, not to mention that despite the visual illusion, ssg is only about 25% slower reloading than classic shotgun. Med-long doesn't mean long range where neither SG is any effective and you're must stuck to chaingun only, unless the enemies are merely turrent to face rockets\plasma.

The most unfun part about ssg is that you're mostly forced to use it MOST of the time. Killing "tough baddies" is what makes it most tedeous, boring and unfun part of this weapon, as there simple not enough rockets or cells to use other weapon most of the time and you end up sucking up with baron for another 20 seconds. For someone who play UV most of the time, or HoE when I will be sure there not a lot of god damned hitscanners around that would just respawn right behind my back, the cells and rockets often are very limited, so I end up using rockets more against "turrent" type of enemy and cells against cybers\mastermind only. And I like Doom 1 mapping over Doom 2 maps, at least they made far more sense and weren't such a clusterfuck, felt more balanced for bigger weapon variety as well.

Doomkid said:

It's OP, and I'm damned to use it almost all the time as it simply breaks the game. You ever tried a DM with no SSG? It gets so fun and balanced without this op crappy boomstick for noob sacks, other weapons finally gets some use and no longer dependant of this "ssg meta" bullcrap. Learning other weapons in the game when not to not use them and switch to different one is simply a part of Doom2's skill curve, rather than relying on one instakilling overrated overused op noob gun for badies with it's huge spread and kills based on luck.


Fixed that for you. But we all know that ssg scrubs, which is most of doom 2 dm nerds with established mindset with their representation about "meta of dm" will whine a lot if their favourite toy is taken away from them.

Doomkid said:

I really do think it was made so awesome because if it wasn't, it would have been lame as hell for a "new gun". I honestly think the game would feel very incomplete without it, which would have resulted in smaller hoards of enemies (what a horrible thought)

That's just my stance though.


Actually, people already would feel appeal to new weapon and use it more often than weapons from Doom 1 just because, well, it's a new weapon for the hell of it, and making it overpowered, or even making ammo count so limited yet so many shells ammo all around, won't help the fact you will hardly use anything else except maybe BFG against very rare ocassions of killing Cybers\clear way through to survive or shooting rockets at a long range horde of enemies (again, if you sure nothing will teleport near your face).

Doomkid said:

Spoiler

ROFL someone got owned in a DM recently methinks

Csonicgo said:

Then why aren't you playing Tyson?
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/RCLReWij1hs/maxresdefault.jpg


oj m9 il rek ya so hard n ya momma on top of mah rampaeg. fite me 1v1 in da nutty\d2dm1\opnoobssgscrubfest.wad u ssg scrublord if ur daer xddddddddddd

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You're talking about the single-barrel being better than the Chaingun, but it's not actually "better", it's very situational. As you stated, the chaingun has a higher DPS. It is objectively better for clearing a room full of weaker enemies. I's rather use a chaingun against a wave of chaingunners!

Also, despite the famous fallacy that ssg is not effective at med-long range, well, it is.

Against zombiemen and imps maybe. Take me on in a long range DM map - you can have the SSG, and I'll take the single barrel.. ;)

The SSG takes almost exactly twice as long to reload as the normal shotgun, I'm not sure where you got that 25% figure from. The SSG is often the only choice you'll have when surrounded by, say, two Arachnotrons. It's fun to have a chance in desperate moments rather than "well there's no good gun for this situation so fuck you".

there simple not enough rockets or cells to use other weapon most of the time and you end up sucking up with baron for another 20 seconds.

Having played through Doom 2 on UV quite a few times I can safely say that, if you use your ammunition strategically - That is, take out as many enemies with as little ammo as possible, you'll be using your BFG and your RL almost as much as your SSG. Map27 (Monster Condo) - Do you wanna fight all those Revenants surrounding all those HKs and Barons with an SSG? Yeah, if you really like testing your projectile dodging skills, but you should have been using those shells on the imps and zombies and saving up your cells and rockets for encounters with higher HP enemies.

I mean honestly, I don't know how strafing around a baron for a few seconds with an SSG is that boring anyway.. That just seems really nitpicky to me personally.

But we all know that ssg scrubs, which is most of doom 2 dm nerds with established mindset with their representation about "meta of dm" will whine a lot if their favourite toy is taken away from them.

Well heck, if my enemy also doesn't have an SSG, it's still a fair fight, but it sure can take a long time. I also really have no idea where you're getting this "kills based on luck" thing from, sounds like you just need to player better balanced DM maps.

Actually, people already would feel appeal to new weapon and use it more often than weapons from Doom 1 just because, well, it's a new weapon for the hell of it

Many FPS games have proven this theory to be false over the years.

This thread: The SSG is slightly OP, I think everyone agrees there, but you're really exaggerating to make your point. Every gun has it's strengths and weaknesses, and there are plenty of occasions where the SSG is trumped by the RL, Plasma and BFG. Hell, even the Chaingun and SG, if we're talking long range.

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You're blaming the SSG being overpowered just because it's unrealistic.

But there's nothing wrong with irrelism in a fictional land and it's not that overused, when there's an SSG in a map there are usually less shells and more of the other supplies, unless the mapper intenionally wants you to use the SSG more, which rarely happens if you look at quality mapsets.

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Unable to kill a Cacodemon in one direct SSG blast bothers me. If anything it could use a little more of a boost and then the gun will definitely be my favorite. Well, I guess it already is.

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BTSX E2 has a lot of levels where the plasma rifle is the lead weapon, or at least equally supplied with cells as the super broken boomstick is with shells so, er, play that :D

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whatever you say, shotgun is better for medium-long range and has a horizontal pattern, unlike the super shotgun, so learn to use it.

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MaxRideWizardLord said:

Often there are maps in dm that consist nothing more but ssg only, and even midi music plays that use nothing more but soundfiles of ssg fire and reload, which makes game annoying, boring, disgusting and lame to the maximum.

I wouldn't call it "often" - as far as I know, there's exactly one wad like that, and it's a jokewad parodying DWANGO5. Being "lame" was the point of this parody.

Doomkid said:

It's a little OP, but I'll be damned if it 'breaks the game' or anything like that. You ever tried a DM with no SSG? It gets boring as hell.

However, I think that if the SSG only fired 14 pellets (=twice as much as regular shotgun) as opposed to 20 pellets per shot, it would remain fun to use in deathmatch. It would still be capable of one-shot-killing a player with 100% health and no armor, but not a player with 200% health or a player with 100% health and at least green armor, which I think would actually improve its balance issues.

MaxRideWizardLord said:

Does anyone know any mod that nerf and balancing ssg along with shotgun in terms of ammo-power, and probably makes even slightly more accurate with lesser spread-cone, so it won't be just be luck based overpowered noob gun??

Winter's Fury has such an SSG. It's a singleplayer-oriented mapset for GZDoom, though. I guess you could still extract the sprites and DECORATE code of this weapon from the wad, if only to check out how it feels in DM or something.

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Haha, person whining about the Super? What is this, 1996? The weapon is cemented into the greatness that is Doom. Love it or leave it, but you'll always be bowing beneath my double-barrel, plebeian.

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So, you think revenants are over-used, -fast Pain Elementals are better than regular Pain Elementals, and the SSG is "cheap, boring, overused and overpowered". Plus you say it's riskier to clear a room with a chaingun than an SSG, that utilizing the BFG to its full potential is difficult, and there's not one mention about how rockets kill everything an SSG kills except faster (rockets are rare? What are you talking about?)

I think you need to play a bit more Doom before trying to justify your hyperbole.

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MaxRideWizardLord said:

That double noobtube of doom 2 is probably the most overused weapon in whole game that you end up using almost all of the time with only rare exceptions.

The damage of this weapon is way too high and far, FAR from balanced...


Stopped reading there.

Balanced? Against what? Monsters? That's what we have harder wads for.

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The regular shotty has about a 1/64 chance of doing 100 HP or more (up to 105) of damage. An interesting DM rebalancing would be to make it a bit "hotter", e.g. shoot one or two extra pellets, to make "one shot kills" on a healthy player more probable with it, too, and at a greater distance than with the SSG. Then maybe hardcore DM players would get back to it, with dick-wagging contests between the "1337" that regularly kill their opponents up-close AND afar with the shotty, flaunting their accuracy as well, while the "n00bz" use the "cheap" SSG and can only spawncamp ;-)

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If you don't like it, make your own patch and play that way. If you're Good at doom and looking for a really fun challange, uv tyson is a blast! As for the ssg being overpowered, I enjoy harder wads, as for dm, I don't care as I don't play dm.

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SSG is fine in Singleplayer, but absolutely ruins Deathmatch.
I really hate how most Deathmatch ends up as nothing but constant SSG jousting.
It removed a lot of the strategy, and turned it into more of a "run into combat screaming, guns blazing" kind of thing.

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The Civ said:

SSG is fine in Singleplayer, but absolutely ruins Deathmatch.


The rocket launcher in Q1. The railgun in Q2. There's always a definitive weapon to use in id's MP portion of the game. Q3 even lets you have both the RL and railgun and nicely balances them out. The shotgun is pretty damn powerful too.

If you think D2 is too easy with the SSG just don't use it or make a simple patch that replaces it with the shotgun (or removes it entirely).

The RL and BFG are more powerful weapons than the SSG and the RL manages to kill the tough/er/est baddies in the same amount of shots as the SSG does but does it faster and with splash damage.

The BFG at point blank use is a matter of timing it with an enemy throwing/shooting their projectile then running up to them while it's charging and BOOM, fully absorbed the attack and dead in 1-2 hits.

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The only real counterpart to the SSG in DM is, IMO, the railgun, even though it's a non-standard extension to Doom. On ZDaemon FFA servers where it's featured as a pickable weapon like all others (and not e.g. on instagib servers), it provides a polar opposite to the SSG: instead of "runnin' and gunnin'", it allows players to 1-shot their opponents from great distances, and rewards quick and precise aim at any distance (but especially from afar) rather than quick close quarters positioning and twitchy triggers/low pings in duels. Two skilled railgun players actually do a "dance" with dodges and pirouettes that has nothing to envy to the "tail chasing" that two skilled SSG players do. As I said, polar opposite ;-)

Can it be abused? Certainly, with spawncamping from across the map, from just behind the victim's back, or blindly shooting in a group of players occupied with one another. But so can other weapons, not the least of which the SSG, which is infamously "good" at contact spawncamping.

The only real difference is that a near-miss shot with the SSG gives the hit player some chance of survival by doing less than 100 HP of damage, but in practice that "humane" or "sportsmanlike" aspect is useless -the screen reddening means that retaliation or dodging a second shot will be nearly impossible. The railgun removes that vestige of false hope -if you're hit, you're dead, though a survivable "near miss" is also possible with the railgun in rare circumstances.

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Over used maybe, but overpowered? No way. It turns you into a wrecking ball upclose, but it's almost useless if your target is even just a few metters away. I don't think the normal shotgun ever loses it's usefulness either, since you brobably won't want to waste 2 shells on a single zombie or imp, and it's a great weapon for sniping at mid to mid-long range.

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