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MaxRideWizardLord

Double barrel, or super shotgun is so damn cheap, boring, overused and overpowered.

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HorrorMovieGuy said:

Over used maybe, but overpowered? No way. It turns you into a wrecking ball upclose, but it's almost useless if your target is even just a few metters away.


Don't underestimate the SSG's destructive power: even at what you'd call a "medium" distance, it can still finish off a player that's not at 100% health. I watched how some "SSG gurus" get so many kills on ZDaemon, and noticed that the best of them didn't neglect to shoot even players farther than CQ distances, whenever they had the opportunity (coupled with freelook, though). That's what allowed them to rack up positive kills faster than everybody else, who just traded blows with other grunts.

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Maes, I love the railgun when I have a good connection, but that's rare.. It SUCKS for us laggers :(

Some people refuse to turn item respawn on in deathmatch, but it can be a great way to counterbalance the SSG's strength if the map has armor and health present. It can make the match take longer, but reducing the fraglimit prevents it from getting boring, for those with short attention spans anyway.

I can think of many times where I've opted for the plasma or the RL over the SSG in deathmatch - That slow reload time really can be a pain in the balls against the faster weapons. If you're playing a good variety of maps, you'll quickly find the SSG is not the only gun that's viable.

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Doomkid said:

Maes, I love the railgun when I have a good connection, but that's rare.. It SUCKS for us laggers :(

I did no research, but it totally should be possible to disable its particle effects on client side.

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Oh, the particle effects aren't the issue, it's just the actual connection delay - Since it relies purely on accuracy, a 0.3 second delay seems tiny, but almost always prevents my rails from hitting, where as the spread of the SG and SSG make it easier to manage with said delay. Even rockets can be lobbed into an area effectively while lagging, but rails just become pure luck whether or not it hits.

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What is the 'default' weapon that you select in almost all cases? Double Barrel Shotgun. It's the reason why a lot of people run around with 100 rockets and 600 cells saving them 'for teh special moment'. It is way too universal. Try playing a map with a late DBS or no DBS. It automatically encourages utilizing a Rocket Launcher and a Plasma Rifle for tougher enemies that you would normally try to defeat with the DBS. No other weapon in DOOM is good enough to be used as a default, especially with the DOOM II enemies.

Generally when you have a DBS, it's 90% of that and 10% of other weapons for special cases. It's ridiculous. That's why every map that waits with delivering that weapon is automatically better.

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^ The word "better" concluding your post genuinely surprised me. After I read the whole post, I expected the last word to be either "bad" or "worse". :)

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Touchdown said:

Generally when you have a DBS, it's 90% of that and 10% of other weapons for special cases. It's ridiculous. That's why every map that waits with delivering that weapon is automatically better.

I find restricting shotgun shells can help push the player to mix it up as well.

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Doomkid said:

Maes, I love the railgun when I have a good connection, but that's rare.. It SUCKS for us laggers :(


But so does the SSG if you try to out-trigger your opponent while charging head-first into one another -whoever sees first and whose trigger pull registers first, wins. In such cases, strategies that rely on non-hitscan weapons and on ambushing or zoning (the "1337" terms for camping and spamming, accordingly) are more advisable.

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scifista42 said:

^ The word "better" concluding your post genuinely surprised me. After I read the whole post, I expected the last word to be either "bad" or "worse". :)


Did I mess up the logic somewhere? The short version is: DBS overshadows everything else in most cases, so it's better to give it later into the map/mapset.

MrGlide said:

I find restricting shotgun shells can help push the player to mix it up as well.


That too but it is a bit of a double edged sword because it also affects the regular Shotgun. Chances are you won't choose the pump-action over double-barrel anyway because DBS delivers more damage for the same amount of ammo.

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Overpowered... Hmm... Really?
What about Revenant's rocket with 60-80% damage? What about Mancubus which can kill you instantly if you are too close?
I would be agree with you if i could with that gun kill Revenant, Arachnotron or Hell Knight from one shot. In this case yeah... Overpowered.

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Touchdown said:

What is the 'default' weapon that you select in almost all cases? Double Barrel Shotgun. It's the reason why a lot of people run around with 100 rockets and 600 cells saving them 'for teh special moment'. It is way too universal. Try playing a map with a late DBS or no DBS. It automatically encourages utilizing a Rocket Launcher and a Plasma Rifle for tougher enemies that you would normally try to defeat with the DBS. No other weapon in DOOM is good enough to be used as a default, especially with the DOOM II enemies (hitscan-heavy maps).

Generally when you have a DBS, it's 90% of that and 10% of other weapons for special cases. It's ridiculous. That's why every map that waits with delivering that weapon is automatically better.

Except the DBS is actually awful as your "default" weapon in single player. Chaingun and plasma are both far better, since they're much more able to deal with sudden traps and snares, and even the regular shotgun is better in some cases.

Furthermore, if you're running around with 100 rockets because you're "saving them for the special moment", you're either playing really badly or playing really bad maps. Probably both.

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While it's technically subjective to a map's content, I do feel that the SSG is generally a vastly OP weapon, in no small part thanks to the ammo being so plentiful on any given map. Getting ~200dmg with each attack, and for a measly two shells? Someone at id definitely wasn't concentrating when they slapped this one into the game and declared it done. The refire pointer is also way, way too early in the reload sequence too. The fucking gun isn't even closed before the next shot is lobbed out.

As far as DM goes, custom maps where the SSG features heavily turns Doom PvP into a tedious jousting match. This is why I'll always prefer the first game over Doom II or Final Doom. One of the reasons I despise D5M1 in particular is that the SSG is placed by every spawn point (with the other reason being that this placement isn't even consistent relative to the player's initial facing direction). Why bother looking for anything else when you're gifted the premium choice immediately?

Azuruish said:

Overpowered... Hmm... Really?
What about Revenant's rocket with 60-80% damage? What about Mancubus which can kill you instantly if you are too close?
I would be agree with you if i could with that gun kill Revenant, Arachnotron or Hell Knight from one shot. In this case yeah... Overpowered.

Doomguy has that which no monster possesses; a combination of agility and the player's awareness. Monsters need powerful attacks to pose any threat to Doomguy's mobility, but hey, if you just stand there like a fucking idiot and take it all, then yes, a Mancubus is OP.

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BaronOfStuff said:

While it's technically subjective to a map's content, I do feel that the SSG is generally a vastly OP weapon, in no small part thanks to the ammo being so plentiful on any given map. Getting ~200dmg with each attack, and for a measly two shells? Someone at id definitely wasn't concentrating when they slapped this one into the game and declared it done. The refire pointer is also way, way too early in the reload sequence too. The fucking gun isn't even closed before the next shot is lobbed out.

No, id got it right.

If the SSG didn't do excellent damage per shot when you hit with every pellet, it would be completely worthless. That long time between shots can easily get you killed, and its range is absolutely awful. If the damage were even close to "2x regular shotgun damage", like some people always ask for, it would literally be strictly worse than the regular shotgun.

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Cynical said:

DBS is actually awful as your "default" weapon in single player. Chaingun and plasma are both far better, since they're much more able to deal with sudden traps and snares, and even the regular shotgun is better in some cases.

You're right about plasmagun, except that cells are rarer than shells and therefore the player might not have them or be reluctant to use them. However, both chaingun and shotgun suck in comparison with SSG when the trap includes any mid-to-high tier enemies from Pinkies up to Cyberdemons.

Cynical said:

If the damage were even close to "2x regular shotgun damage", like some people always ask for, it would literally be strictly worse than the regular shotgun.

Not really, since the SSG's reloading sequence is only 1.38x slower than SG's reloading sequence, so that if the SSG dealth exactly twice as much damage as the SG per shot, it would still deal damage 1.38x faster than the SG and therefore be more advantageous. And let's not forget the mere fact that all of SSG's relatively heavy damage is unleashed at once, which is priceless when you need to immediately deal a fatal blow to your enemy/oponent, and you can't afford to wait until your SG reloads after its first half-as-damaging blow.

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If you want to bring DM weapon balance into the discussion, you need to understand one absolute, irreversible, core fact: no one cares about your whines that SSG is OP. It is a fantastic weapon that redeems Doom's broken-ass ancient principles and makes almost any fucking rectangle with DM spawns a fun endeavour. We wouldn't be playing this game online without the SSG, because it would suck ass. (U)Doom DM is fucking dire and you need a really well constructed and balanced map to get a fun experience that doesn't feel like giving the 90's another chance.

AXIOM: You can't have a Doom multiplayer community without the SSG.

With that out of the way, let's look at our options:

1) Other weapons get accentuated by proper map design.

2) Other weapons get beefed up by dehacked/decorate changes.

The former is "fairly easy", as doom2 map01 teaches us. Just make using the other weapons more advantageous. Brit1010, judas23, exodus1on1 and many, many other maps show us that the SSG doesn't need to be the be-all end-all weapon if the other weapons provide more advantage. This even translates to singleplayer, just overwhelm the player and lo and behold, suddenly it's PG as the "ready weapon" and RL/BFG as the "workhorse weapons".

The latter is equally well explored. I have two "model" NS games uploaded, here and here, but rebalancing the weapon set to fit more newschoolish approach has been something we've been exploring for years and years. Just speeding up rockets a little bit makes a world of difference, you know! And you have no idea about the wonders of the pummelsaw. And this also translates to single player. skillsaw's Valiant wonderfully updates the arsenal according to the dangers he presents and the minigun replaces the SSG/PG as the ready weapon.

Basically, this topic has been revisited a hundred of times and there are solutions if you care to search for them.

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That's why I like the double barrel shotgun. Its power feels "genuine" which is rare in games and makes it so satisfying to wield. Developers design their weapons around the game and monsters in the game, so the weapon is always part of the gameworld. A shotgun in a game wasn't independently built at some arms factory for maximum carnage, and it wasn't designed to simulate some super ballistic model. They're specifically balanced and placed in the game around the requirements of the game. So in most games with a double barrel shotgun, the game was designed from the ground up around having such a weapon, and the end result is basically a generic shotgun with a double barrel skin, just a big blast and underwhelming standard shotgun performance.

But most of doom's monsters were designed and balanced around the single barrel shotgun, with the double barrel coming later as an afterthought, so the designers were trapped with a baseline power multiplier they couldn't escape. They had to make it powerful and thats what gives it its flavor.

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dew said:

If you want to bring DM weapon balance into the discussion, you need to understand one absolute, irreversible, core fact: no one cares about your whines that SSG is OP. It is a fantastic weapon that redeems Doom's broken-ass ancient principles and makes almost any fucking rectangle with DM spawns a fun endeavour. We wouldn't be playing this game online without the SSG, because it would suck ass. (U)Doom DM is fucking dire and you need a really well constructed and balanced map to get a fun experience that doesn't feel like giving the 90's another chance.


I have no quarrel with the SSG, but I am curious. What "broken-ass ancient principles" did Doom have that the SSG fixed, especially DM wise? The only pre Doom FPS I can think of with Deathmatch is MIDI Maze/Faceball 2000. It was slow, only had one weapon, and was restricted to wolf3d style raycasting. None of which describe Doom.

Also, what about Quake 3? While Doom 2 had the SSG, Quake 1 had the Rocket Launcher, and Quake 2 had the railgun, I don't think Quake 3 had "one main weapon", or at least, not to the same extent as other games.

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The BFG was banned, or at the very least, made unusable in Doom 3's multiplayer deathmatch, AFAIK.

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MaxRideWizardLord said:

Why should do that when ssg is just powerful enough and there is always shells to not care about some weird ass "tyson" strategy? :v Sure you can also try to beat whole doom 2 on HoE using only fist, although that is not the point of this thread.


The Tyson strategy is a speedrun challenge, such as UV MAX, Pacifist, NM100S, etc.

oj m9 il rek ya so hard n ya momma on top of mah rampaeg. fite me 1v1 in da nutty\d2dm1\opnoobssgscrubfest.wad u ssg scrublord if ur daer xddddddddddd


Let us duel on DOOM2.WAD MAP01 with a fraglimit of 200 over a dial-up modem (provided you pay for the phone service and long distance phone call).

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scifista42 said:

You're right about plasmagun, except that cells are rarer than shells and therefore the player might not have them or be reluctant to use them. However, both chaingun and shotgun suck in comparison with SSG when the trap includes any mid-to-high tier enemies from Pinkies up to Cyberdemons.

Nope, the only time you need fast shot-reaction (as opposed to possibly needing fast dodge-reaction) to a trap that's not intense enough that a plasma rifle with ammo is probably provided is if it's hitscanners, and the SSG is garbage against hitscanner traps. You need rate of fire for that shit, and a good chaingunner trap will shred the SSG player while he's waiting for shots 2 and 3.

Not really, since the SSG's reloading sequence is only 1.38x slower than SG's reloading sequence, so that if the SSG dealth exactly twice as much damage as the SG per shot, it would still deal damage 1.38x faster than the SG and therefore be more advantageous. And let's not forget the mere fact that all of SSG's relatively heavy damage is unleashed at once, which is priceless when you need to immediately deal a fatal blow to your enemy/oponent, and you can't afford to wait until your SG reloads after its first half-as-damaging blow.

The burst damage cuts both ways, though; you're losing a ton of DPS on "overkill".

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If the map is balanced around using the ssg then it isn't that overpowered. The shotgun is very boring to use when fighting stuff like arachnotrons and mancubi so the weapon is a pretty good addition to the game. Shotgun can help conserve ammo against further enemies but is outclassed by machinegun and plasma too, maybe those weapons are op by that reasoning!

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SS is perfectly balanced, IMO (at least for single player).

Of course, you can't talk about single player weapons balance without talking about the game's scaling, but the SS is perfect for mid-tier maps. It a strong weapon, killing enemies with it is an awesome experience, it also helps clearing rooms and bullet-sponge enemies faster, making everything more dynamic. In other hand, its range is limited and the firerate is too slow, which will make the player quite often prefer to use others weapons: Chaingun for painlocking and sniping, Single Shotgun for sniping and ammo management, Rocket Launcher for bursting and plasma gun for damage + pain locking.

Of course Single Shotgun is weaker than the SS, but Single Shotgun is a low-tier weapon, perfect against imps, humans and lost souls (even Demons might take too much to kill with it, imo)

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Is there a mod that removes the SSG from Doom 2? Because that would be great.

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Job said:

Is there a mod that removes the SSG from Doom 2? Because that would be great.

Wtf. Just use the single shotgun!

EDIT: Wait, you're kidding, right? :D

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vadrig4r said:

Filthy dumb newfag scum.

Whoa whoa whoa, that's a bit too harsh there, son

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Marcaek said:

georg here telling actual dm players that sg is so fun uh huh yeah buddy


ohay georg.

Doomkid said:

You're talking about the single-barrel being better than the Chaingun, but it's not actually "better", it's very situational. As you stated, the chaingun has a higher DPS. It is objectively better for clearing a room full of weaker enemies. I's rather use a chaingun against a wave of chaingunners!


By better I mean that it has more solid place in the game, because you won't use chaingun that often, or as often as you'd wish to use it. Even in doom 1 there still more shells than anything else, and instantly killing a group of zombiemans in one shot and don't bother about concentration fire like you would do with chaingun is still better option. Maybe word better is not very fitting here, more reliable is more correct one, but what I was trying to say, is that you will find yourself using shotgun more often than chaingun due it's ammo problem, and you will always will feel assured you will not out of ammo for shotgun unlike for chaingun, while do as much as you could do with chaingun. In fact, I feel like chaingun is underated, it does nice dps and can prevent zombieman\imp from shooting, plus killing horde of light enemies makes you feel like you're using actual minigun, but that is pretty much all I was used it for in doom 1 due to the fact I was watching my ammo. In latter episodes it gets more use however.

Doomkid said:

Against zombiemen and imps maybe. Take me on in a long range DM map - you can have the SSG, and I'll take the single barrel.. ;)


Dude, we were talking about singleplayer\campaign, and now you're talking about dm... Tsk tsk tsk... Not good! Anyway, in middle-long range (don't mistaken with long range), especially where there are a couple of enemies, the spread of ssg will only help you deal damage to many of them, and in summary, that is far better damage\dps than you could do with shotgun. Even if that is a single cacodemon, chances are that you will still do bigger dps\damage with ssg than shotgun. But if the target is too far away and is only one left, then both options are irrelevant and I would just use chaingun for that very rare ocassion, unless it's cyber\mastermind.

Same for DM, if it's a map where I can't get close to just W+M1 you with SSG, i rather use chaingun than anything.

Doomkid said:

The SSG takes almost exactly twice as long to reload as the normal shotgun, I'm not sure where you got that 25% figure from. The SSG is often the only choice you'll have when surrounded by, say, two Arachnotrons. It's fun to have a chance in desperate moments rather than "well there's no good gun for this situation so fuck you".


Wrong. SSG is takes far from even "almost", especially from "exactly", the twice as long to reload as the normal shotgun.

Again, wrong. I never said that 25% is being absolute accurate form. In reality, what I trully said is: about 25%, in which case it's acceptable.

According to actual official Doom 2 Wikia, Shotgun can perform 56.8 reloads per minute, and ssg can perform 36.8 reloads per minute. Using a simple math, we can find out that the speed of ssg is about 65% of the single shotgun, thus we have this 35%. While 35% is big for 25%, it's still even much smaller than 50%, so it's fits more as 25% for around number. In thisc cause, the statement that ssg being only aboud 25% slower to reload is being actually correct.

Doomkid said:

Having played through Doom 2 on UV quite a few times I can safely say that, if you use your ammunition strategically - That is, take out as many enemies with as little ammo as possible, you'll be using your BFG and your RL almost as much as your SSG. Map27 (Monster Condo) - Do you wanna fight all those Revenants surrounding all those HKs and Barons with an SSG? Yeah, if you really like testing your projectile dodging skills, but you should have been using those shells on the imps and zombies and saving up your cells and rockets for encounters with higher HP enemies.


Dude, some maps are just flooded with invulnerability spheres, map27 being one of them, and map28 (The Spirit world) is no exception, you could just chainsaw most enemies there. Still, doesn't mean that you won't be still very limited to use of cells, and thus be afraid to use them more, regardless of how much you'd prefer to use plasmagun over ssg. Also, most rational would be save those cells for this unpleasant macubus ambush you get on that map27 anyway. That is, yeah, one of those sitations that I already mentioned on the topic where you just "must" use bfg9000 in order to survive and make your path through, because usually those traps with ambushes with lots of enemies doesn't end well for your health. But then again, final doom. In final doom you'd be more forced to stick to SSG than anything else, as even you won't be given much ammo for upcoming traps (that are often regardless) of enemies.

Doomkid said:

I mean honestly, I don't know how strafing around a baron for a few seconds with an SSG is that boring anyway.. That just seems really nitpicky to me personally.


It's hella boring, VERY boring and repeative to a point it starts irretating you, especially if you do that over and over, over and over, over and over with each new map and each new baron or another couples of enemies... I bet you enjoy sitting in a corner, fighting those endless, ENDLESS waves of pinkies that rush at you at map21 in chillax, don't ya??

Doomkid said:

Well heck, if my enemy also doesn't have an SSG, it's still a fair fight, but it sure can take a long time. I also really have no idea where you're getting this "kills based on luck" thing from, sounds like you just need to player better balanced DM maps.


Something I love about Hard Doom mod, it gives us those ssg enemies, and god... they're insane overpowered, most definitelly most annoying enemy of all (maybe after buggy explosive lost souls that shot fire darts that hard to see as they merge with lost soul's skin). That will teach those ssg scrubs what it's like to use an cheap broken spoiled overpowered noob gun against poor projectile npc enemies.

As for kill based on luck, are you even serious pal?? What about this HUGE cone of spread of bullets in all directions?? Sometimes I even manage to do 100 damage at guy like 20 meters away from me and kill him in one shot in dm\ctf. Often when I aim someone else, and the player was like 30 degrees and 15 meters away from my iron sight, the spread still kills him rather than the player I was aiming at that was just 10 meters away. It's not that hard to get double kills either way, and sometimes up to triplle kills in one shot. And while I use "aimbot" to "never", enabling "aimbot" will improve ssgs ranged attacks, or rather you will do more damage\have higher chance to do more damage\instakill an really ranged enemy, although it's still often based on luck of the spread of the ssg.

Doomkid said:

Many FPS games have proven this theory to be false over the years.


Pffff, a lot of games, especially singleplayer ones, that add new weapon, makes people use that weapon regardless if it’s bad or not, just because it’s new. When a new weapon being added to MP game, even if it’s bad, it have at least 5 days hype that will surely make people be interested in using that certain new weapon.

Doomkid said:

This thread: The SSG is slightly OP, I think everyone agrees there, but you're really exaggerating to make your point. Every gun has it's strengths and weaknesses, and there are plenty of occasions where the SSG is trumped by the RL, Plasma and BFG. Hell, even the Chaingun and SG, if we're talking long range.


Or perhaps you're understimate of how annoying, boring, overused and overpowered this noobstick compared to other weapons. >:V If "every gun has it's strengths and weaknesses, and there are plenty of occasions where the SSG is trumped by the RL, Plasma and BFG" statement was correct, you wouldn't see people in CTF use nothing more but SSG only. Even on some "good balanced" maps, where you get the chance to use all sort of weapons, including BFG, the most used weapon is still remain ssg, both from potato levels and le pr0-1337mlg levels. Lately I found that even noobs don't like to use bfg9000 too much over ssg, because bfg takes time to charge, is projectile, and many of them don't know how to use wallshooting properly. Although I do admit that bfg9000 can be extremely overpowered in some ocassion if it's server filled with 20 players or so (which already means it's a mess) and some lucky ass found bfg9000 just to wallshotgun a horde of players, thus topscoring easily.

joe-ilya said:

You're blaming the SSG being overpowered just because it's unrealistic.

But there's nothing wrong with irrelism in a fictional land and it's not that overused, when there's an SSG in a map there are usually less shells and more of the other supplies, unless the mapper intenionally wants you to use the SSG more, which rarely happens if you look at quality mapsets.


I'm also blaming that it's makes no-sense and is illogical, and also is overpowered relative to other weapons and ammo. Also the fact how most map balance forces you up using it almost all of the time due to the shell ammo spam around map while cells\rockets being extremely rare even at late of the game. I've hardly seen any "quality" mapset where the mapper didn't force you to use at least 70% of all time.

yakfak said:

BTSX E2 has a lot of levels where the plasma rifle is the lead weapon, or at least equally supplied with cells as the super broken boomstick is with shells so, er, play that :D


Would like to know this mappack, there are hardly any megawads\mappacks where plasmagun gets much love unfortunatelly. :(

XCOPY said:

whatever you say, shotgun is better for medium-long range and has a horizontal pattern, unlike the super shotgun, so learn to use it.


it's still luck based at long range, and if you're talking about very long range, and the target is fast, then you gotta sacrifice some bullets and use tap mouse 1 button while using chaingun to clean the enemy. If there a couple of enemies, and it's just a medium-long range, then ssg is still better in this situation than sg, at least in terms of damage. There are chances that sg will do more damage against long range SINGLE cacodemon (although, then you would rather use rocket and chaingun anyway, or just get close to that cacodemon with ssg if you can) at rare occasion, but it's usefulness hardly overcome its inferiority.

Maes said:

How dare you desecrate the Holy SSG, infidel. Don't you know it's balanced according to the Golden Ratio?!


Irrelevant, subjective and very biased measurement. That "golden ratio" (where ssg is still more dominant and op than shotgun anyway) describes it's "balance" in some aspect where has no actual place in the game, and technically, doesn't make up much sense at all. We don't need any more pseudoscience here.

scifista42 said:

I wouldn't call it "often" - as far as I know, there's exactly one wad like that, and it's a jokewad parodying DWANGO5. Being "lame" was the point of this parody.


Hell, not only one! I've saw at least 4-5 of them. They weren't popular, but they were imitating\parody this famous dwango5 map. Given the fact that I don't play DM that often, I assume there are far more than just that.

scifista42 said:

However, I think that if the SSG only fired 14 pellets (=twice as much as regular shotgun) as opposed to 20 pellets per shot, it would remain fun to use in deathmatch. It would still be capable of one-shot-killing a player with 100% health and no armor, but not a player with 200% health or a player with 100% health and at least green armor, which I think would actually improve its balance issues.


Indeed it is. There been mods like that, in fact they even made reload slightly, sliightly slower by improving animation.

scifista42 said:

Winter's Fury has such an SSG. It's a singleplayer-oriented mapset for GZDoom, though. I guess you could still extract the sprites and DECORATE code of this weapon from the wad, if only to check out how it feels in DM or something.


Not exactly sure if I need sprites and if shotgun will work if I just take the decorates, and neither sure where I can get this mod.

So far I remember, there been stand alone .wad files with a simple super shotgun tweaks, I remember some of those mods made reload\fire animation be more realistic and complicated and thus it too a bit more time to reload, yet the power is reduced to just 14 bullets as you said. Doesn't mean this somehow made the weapon less popular, no; just made weapon be less cheap and overpowered, and made players use it more tactical and use some effort in order to instakill in one shoot.

Would you know\remember any of those mods, please?? (That is, pretty much the core of my thread to be honest).

Use3D said:

Haha, person whining about the Super? What is this, 1996? The weapon is cemented into the greatness that is Doom. Love it or leave it, but you'll always be bowing beneath my double-barrel, plebeian.


So now saying and expressing subjective opinion based of own analysis, understanding and empirical experience from the game is now called "whining" ?? -.- kids these days... Only because it become, as one person already said, "broken-ass ancient principles", doesn't mean I should obey them, neither does mean I should be alright with them, neither takes away my right to say that I'm not alright with it. Love it or leave it, but you will always encouter people who will not always agree with your biased egotistic perspective, neither always share your views, even if that causes you a cognitive dissonance.

dew said:

Post cred on non-SSG DM maps or gtfo until gud.


uwotpeep?

dobu gabu maru said:

So, you think revenants are over-used, -fast Pain Elementals are better than regular Pain Elementals, and the SSG is "cheap, boring, overused and overpowered". Plus you say it's riskier to clear a room with a chaingun than an SSG, that utilizing the BFG to its full potential is difficult, and there's not one mention about how rockets kill everything an SSG kills except faster (rockets are rare? What are you talking about?)

I think you need to play a bit more Doom before trying to justify your hyperbole.


Yes they are, especially in most custom mappacks I've seen that are flooded with reventants.

I've never said that, I only said fast Pain Elementals gets any respect they originally deserve rather than original ones that are not that much of fear\annoyance causing enemy

Yes it is.

Not always, but often, especially if it's tight area filled with ZombieNPC. One blow usually clean, and if not, you can hide to reload, jump in again, shoot, run away, repeat, works better and less risky than be in range with zombie hitscanners (especially damn chaingunners) and keep spraying stream-damage chaingun. While you will stun one or two chaingunners, third one or be that shotgun guy will do the blast with higher chance than if you just blow ssg and run.

As for BFG9000... Well, have you ever thought about megawads\mappacks where Cybers placed on platforms\columns far away, or you’re tight road and you can’t fall off the edge as it means death for you, but the Cybers shoot rockets for far distance at you, then?

Maybe you should play more DOOM games yourself to get a full picture, maybe not most traditional mods and ways of play. :V

40oz said:

Stopped reading there.

Balanced? Against what? Monsters? That's what we have harder wads for.


Balanced is not always about "against what" (which mostly are subjective), balance can be around relative and compared to what (which is more objective by a fact). While I found ssg is rather easy, repeative and boring (and on chillax-like wads it gets beyond tedious), it's certainly gets used far more often than other weapons, not only because of it's low ammo cost, but high power delivery. If those "harder wads" rely more or rockets or plasma, or even chaingun, that would be another story. I would like to see wads that heavily rely on chaingun actually than anything else, I've never seen mappacks like that. Maybe except some doom 1 mods where you can use chaingun almost all the time, that still have more shells anyway.

Maes said:

The regular shotty has about a 1/64 chance of doing 100 HP or more (up to 105) of damage. An interesting DM rebalancing would be to make it a bit "hotter", e.g. shoot one or two extra pellets, to make "one shot kills" on a healthy player more probable with it, too, and at a greater distance than with the SSG. Then maybe hardcore DM players would get back to it, with dick-wagging contests between the "1337" that regularly kill their opponents up-close AND afar with the shotty, flaunting their accuracy as well, while the "n00bz" use the "cheap" SSG and can only spawncamp ;-)


Imho the shotty is fine as it is, especially in SP.

MrGlide said:

If you don't like it, make your own patch and play that way. If you're Good at doom and looking for a really fun challange, uv tyson is a blast! As for the ssg being overpowered, I enjoy harder wads, as for dm, I don't care as I don't play dm.


I neither play DM much, especially nowadays, (prefer ctf\tlms anyway) but that doesn't mean the weapon is lack of any issues in balanced and is not overused. If any other wepaons gets as much use as ssg, be that ammo, spawn, and power, then it would be officially more balanced. And I mean, not rare ocassion in which situation rocket spam becomes the best option.

The Civ said:

SSG is fine in Singleplayer, but absolutely ruins Deathmatch.
I really hate how most Deathmatch ends up as nothing but constant SSG jousting.
It removed a lot of the strategy, and turned it into more of a "run into combat screaming, guns blazing" kind of thing.


This.

Although, if by "fine" you mean in terms of power at how much you need to shoot single hell knight to kill it, then maybe. But it's not fine on actual practise, as you end up using it pretty much all the time, too. I don't really feel it's fine that end up using other weapons for just rare ocassions, specific situation and use ssg as "default weapon".

Maes said:

The only real counterpart to the SSG in DM is, IMO, the railgun, even though it's a non-standard extension to Doom. On ZDaemon FFA servers where it's featured as a pickable weapon like all others (and not e.g. on instagib servers), it provides a polar opposite to the SSG: instead of "runnin' and gunnin'", it allows players to 1-shot their opponents from great distances, and rewards quick and precise aim at any distance (but especially from afar) rather than quick close quarters positioning and twitchy triggers/low pings in duels. Two skilled railgun players actually do a "dance" with dodges and pirouettes that has nothing to envy to the "tail chasing" that two skilled SSG players do. As I said, polar opposite ;-)

Can it be abused? Certainly, with spawncamping from across the map, from just behind the victim's back, or blindly shooting in a group of players occupied with one another. But so can other weapons, not the least of which the SSG, which is infamously "good" at contact spawncamping.

The only real difference is that a near-miss shot with the SSG gives the hit player some chance of survival by doing less than 100 HP of damage, but in practice that "humane" or "sportsmanlike" aspect is useless -the screen reddening means that retaliation or dodging a second shot will be nearly impossible. The railgun removes that vestige of false hope -if you're hit, you're dead, though a survivable "near miss" is also possible with the railgun in rare circumstances.


Or that could mean that railgun becomes the next cheap overused overpowered weapon that everyone will use all the time. :V

Cyanosis said:

The rocket launcher in Q1. The railgun in Q2. There's always a definitive weapon to use in id's MP portion of the game. Q3 even lets you have both the RL and railgun and nicely balances them out. The shotgun is pretty damn powerful too.

If you think D2 is too easy with the SSG just don't use it or make a simple patch that replaces it with the shotgun (or removes it entirely).

The RL and BFG are more powerful weapons than the SSG and the RL manages to kill the tough/er/est baddies in the same amount of shots as the SSG does but does it faster and with splash damage.

The BFG at point blank use is a matter of timing it with an enemy throwing/shooting their projectile then running up to them while it's charging and BOOM, fully absorbed the attack and dead in 1-2 hits.


Oh. those railguns... The games that tend to have instant burst-damage instakilling weapon that let you instakill even across the map pretty much gain most attention than the rest and usually pretty much revolves around them. Not even "super weapons" that are usually rare and super hard to get won't get in power to those "definitive" weapons.

Yeah, sure, a lot of DM\PVP games have that cancerous weapons that dominant in it's power and is good in ALL situations and thus make attraction to those le pr0MegaSkillzorz1337MLGslayer scrublords who think they do good for using the most banal and overpowered weapon in the game, which latelly creates "meta" around that weapon(s), and that\those weapon(s) being used almost all of the time as pretty much "core" mechanics of the game according to the established status quo, and all other weapons will be either gimmicks, either cosmetics, either fillers, or even "n00b weapons", while the one they use themselves are easy to master and easy to exploit with. What I'm trying to say, only because DM seems to grow around certain cancerous weapon, doesn't mean it's an alright thing and should be in every single video game ever, and that I should be okay with it. No. In fact, that is pretty much one of the purpose of this thread, to cancel the opinion-echo effect and cut the attraction to the most overused and most cheap weapon in the game, that only get's so popular because of people's personal power trip for strongest weapon that just feels "default" or what you call, "definitive".

And while bfg\rl do more damage\dps, the ammo for them is still far more rare than shells, not to mention that in original default maps you will find yourself using ssg far more often than both bfg and rpg, former because it's simple consumes too much rare ammo, and latter because the maps are too close range to use rockets without risk.

As for BFG, I already said how it works in the thread itself, don't need to repeat my words...

HorrorMovieGuy said:

Over used maybe, but overpowered? No way. It turns you into a wrecking ball upclose, but it's almost useless if your target is even just a few metters away. I don't think the normal shotgun ever loses it's usefulness either, since you brobably won't want to waste 2 shells on a single zombie or imp, and it's a great weapon for sniping at mid to mid-long range.


The range of effectiveness is far futher than assumed one, especially with stock vanila doom 2's "aimbot" on, plus it really depends on luck of the bullet spread. Hell, I often get two, and sometimes up to 3 kills with single ssg shot at enemies 7 meters away, and doom 2's "aimbot" (which often being forced anyway on some servers) helps gets you instakills at medium range. But that is just DM. In singleplayer\coop\survivoval, ssg being dominant than sg almost all the time. As for killing single imp, that seems like pretty much only use of sg later in the game, which extremely situational anyway.

Doomkid said:

Maes, I love the railgun when I have a good connection, but that's rare.. It SUCKS for us laggers :(

Some people refuse to turn item respawn on in deathmatch, but it can be a great way to counterbalance the SSG's strength if the map has armor and health present. It can make the match take longer, but reducing the fraglimit prevents it from getting boring, for those with short attention spans anyway.

I can think of many times where I've opted for the plasma or the RL over the SSG in deathmatch - That slow reload time really can be a pain in the balls against the faster weapons. If you're playing a good variety of maps, you'll quickly find the SSG is not the only gun that's viable.


quite sure that railgun (most railguns I've seen at least) is a hitscan weapon, the "rail" itself is just visual effect provided with it, merely for cosmetic purpose. And I believe that doom have lag compensation system, at least zandronum\zdaemon servers. At least it’s not as punishable as projectile based weapons.

Maes said:

But so does the SSG if you try to out-trigger your opponent while charging head-first into one another -whoever sees first and whose trigger pull registers first, wins. In such cases, strategies that rely on non-hitscan weapons and on ambushing or zoning (the "1337" terms for camping and spamming, accordingly) are more advisable.


I believe hitscan still works much better with awful ping than projectiles work with awful ping. I hardly get much luck of kills with plasma that is derailed for like 0.7 second after I shoot, while when I shoot ssg, I still see the players get killed after 0.7 second, even if they run away already out of sight. It feels pretty much like a good lag compensation system.

MrGlide said:

I find restricting shotgun shells can help push the player to mix it up as well.


Yeah that would be good, just like placing SSG at least somewhere some levels AFTER finding chaingun would work too.

Touchdown said:

What is the 'default' weapon that you select in almost all cases? Double Barrel Shotgun. It's the reason why a lot of people run around with 100 rockets and 600 cells saving them 'for teh special moment'. It is way too universal. Try playing a map with a late DBS or no DBS. It automatically encourages utilizing a Rocket Launcher and a Plasma Rifle for tougher enemies that you would normally try to defeat with the DBS. No other weapon in DOOM is good enough to be used as a default, especially with the DOOM II enemies.

Generally when you have a DBS, it's 90% of that and 10% of other weapons for special cases. It's ridiculous. That's why every map that waits with delivering that weapon is automatically better.

Touchdown said:

Did I mess up the logic somewhere? The short version is: DBS overshadows everything else in most cases, so it's better to give it later into the map/mapset.


That too but it is a bit of a double edged sword because it also affects the regular Shotgun. Chances are you won't choose the pump-action over double-barrel anyway because DBS delivers more damage for the same amount of ammo.


Yeah, pretty much. The “pump-action” shotgun would still remain for signle zombie npc and imps though, after all it’s low-tier weapon to begin with, that would still would be used for low-tier enemies there and here.

Azuruish said:

Overpowered... Hmm... Really?
What about Revenant's rocket with 60-80% damage? What about Mancubus which can kill you instantly if you are too close?
I would be agree with you if i could with that gun kill Revenant, Arachnotron or Hell Knight from one shot. In this case yeah... Overpowered.


That is one flawed argument. You don’t use pistol to fight against mancubus and revenant, right?? Should we also buff sg and pistol, and not-buffer-by-berserk punch to balance it with BFG9000 by that point?? No; so why should be early-level encountered weapon that use low-tier, easy-to-find ammo that appears from the very first level and mostly flooded all maps, be so powerful to easily counter high-hp tank, high-tier enemies to begin with?? There plasma is for reason, and yet I feel it doesn’t get much love of unfair ammo distribution, and once you get bfg9000 and yet there lots of tanky enemies ambushes you, using plasma gun become irrelevant, yet I sincerely feel like plasma gun doesn’t get much of love compared to same SSG and BFG9000 in vanilla doom 2\final doom games. A hunting weapons of not mass destruction is used more than rapid fire rocket launcher with no reload and some super sci-fi thick-wall-melting (according to doom movie) weapons gets less use (well, that one argument is sort of relevant in sense, doom is not realistic, but still…). Yet, ssg uses just one more ammo per fire than sg and yet being 3 times more powerful than sg, have quite fast reload and is too strong while being burst-damage weapon, which means you don’t have to be at close range all the time to not miss in case of plasmagun (especially noticeable when fighting revenants) and just can just do one shot, walk away, shot, walk away, etc. Not to mention, ssg is almost guaranteed pain stunlock, so using ssg against arcvhile with high pain stunlock resistance, because plasmagun in most case won’t cause stunlock. I found mancubus aren’t a big of enemy anyway, even at close range (he doesn’t really instakill either), especially given his low pain stunlock resistance. There is so much potential in burst-damage over stream-damage that most people seems to miss, (especially in pvp matches of all games) especially in doom where pain stunlock is actually a thing and in most case will save you life. Sure, pain elemental have such low pain stunlock chance that you would use chaingun, although that is pretty much the only use you will ever find of for chaingun late in the game.

BaronOfStuff said:

While it's technically subjective to a map's content, I do feel that the SSG is generally a vastly OP weapon, in no small part thanks to the ammo being so plentiful on any given map. Getting ~200dmg with each attack, and for a measly two shells? Someone at id definitely wasn't concentrating when they slapped this one into the game and declared it done. The refire pointer is also way, way too early in the reload sequence too. The fucking gun isn't even closed before the next shot is lobbed out.

As far as DM goes, custom maps where the SSG features heavily turns Doom PvP into a tedious jousting match. This is why I'll always prefer the first game over Doom II or Final Doom. One of the reasons I despise D5M1 in particular is that the SSG is placed by every spawn point (with the other reason being that this placement isn't even consistent relative to the player's initial facing direction). Why bother looking for anything else when you're gifted the premium choice immediately?

Doomguy has that which no monster possesses; a combination of agility and the player's awareness. Monsters need powerful attacks to pose any threat to Doomguy's mobility, but hey, if you just stand there like a fucking idiot and take it all, then yes, a Mancubus is OP.


This. Pretty much all of it.

Cynical said:

No, id got it right.

If the SSG didn't do excellent damage per shot when you hit with every pellet, it would be completely worthless. That long time between shots can easily get you killed, and its range is absolutely awful. If the damage were even close to "2x regular shotgun damage", like some people always ask for, it would literally be strictly worse than the regular shotgun.


Again, you hit famous fallacies already. First, the reload is not much longer than sg’s reload. According to doom wikia sg can do 56.8 shots per minute and ssg 36.8 shots per minute, that is about 35% difference. And again, burst-damage. That means you can do high damage, shot in right time and step back at safe distance to reload. That means even with just 2x damage AND slower reloads it would still have more efficiency use than SG in most case anyway. And to reply to your next message after this one, you still do more dps overall with ssg anyway.

scifista42 said:

You're right about plasmagun, except that cells are rarer than shells and therefore the player might not have them or be reluctant to use them. However, both chaingun and shotgun suck in comparison with SSG when the trap includes any mid-to-high tier enemies from Pinkies up to Cyberdemons.

Not really, since the SSG's reloading sequence is only 1.38x slower than SG's reloading sequence, so that if the SSG dealth exactly twice as much damage as the SG per shot, it would still deal damage 1.38x faster than the SG and therefore be more advantageous. And let's not forget the mere fact that all of SSG's relatively heavy damage is unleashed at once, which is priceless when you need to immediately deal a fatal blow to your enemy/oponent, and you can't afford to wait until your SG reloads after its first half-as-damaging blow.


This.

dew said:

I’m get so used to this cheap overpowered weapon to a point I experience soft gentle love to it, thus anyone who dares to question its absolute perfectness of my beloved boomstick I have fetish about, despite providing their own subjective view on it based on actual empirical experience and factual relativity, causes me a physical pain, so out of no reason I tend to call such arguments a whine by instant, regardless the topic wasn’t about DM only to begin with but about whole issue about this weapon. I’m such a selfish spoiled ass that I speak for everyone like it’s some Absolute Objective Eternal Truth written on stone before first Homo Sapiens were even existent, while it’s merely my subjective perspective, so I am the only one who can determine what would suck and what is not. Although, even I do agree it’s overpowered and based of Doom's broken-ass ancient principles build up from evolutionary power trip, but I will still stick to the established status quo. I as well like to say complex words out of place to sound deep and totally righteous, despite that they’re completely incorrect and misused in this context.

FAMOUS FALLACY BASED ON ESTABLISHED RULES OF THE ONLY LEFT COMMUNITY INDUCTED BY THE POWER TRIP THAT PROVIDES THIS WEAPON: You can't have a Doom multiplayer community without the SSG.


Fixed that for you mate.

dew said:

With that out of the way, let's look at our options:

1) Other weapons get accentuated by proper map design.

2) Other weapons get beefed up by dehacked/decorate changes.

The former is "fairly easy", as doom2 map01 teaches us. Just make using the other weapons more advantageous. Brit1010, judas23, exodus1on1 and many, many other maps show us that the SSG doesn't need to be the be-all end-all weapon if the other weapons provide more advantage. This even translates to singleplayer, just overwhelm the player and lo and behold, suddenly it's PG as the "ready weapon" and RL/BFG as the "workhorse weapons".


That would be true if there weren’t much of DM\CTF\TLMS\any_pvp maps designed in mind SSG being pretty much easy-to-get and primary most of the time, and SP maps being flooded with shells while rockets and cells being extensively rare, even bullets far more uncommon than shells, which results you use chaingun either for sniping light npc, or cause pain to pain elemental to not let it create it’s babies.

dew said:

The latter is equally well explored. I have two "model" NS games uploaded, here and here, but rebalancing the weapon set to fit more newschoolish approach has been something we've been exploring for years and years. Just speeding up rockets a little bit makes a world of difference, you know! And you have no idea about the wonders of the pummelsaw. And this also translates to single player. skillsaw's Valiant wonderfully updates the arsenal according to the dangers he presents and the minigun replaces the SSG/PG as the ready weapon.

Basically, this topic has been revisited a hundred of times and there are solutions if you care to search for them.


I’ve actually played some of the modded servers before, most of which are just nerf\rework SSG completely, rarely touch any other weapons tho. Still wonder if anyone know any good mod that nerfs SSG that used on DM servers back then, sometimes coop\survival too. No one seems like to play DM nowadays, at least as much as players did back in the day. :/

mark55 said:

That's why I like the double barrel shotgun. Its power feels "genuine" which is rare in games and makes it so satisfying to wield. Developers design their weapons around the game and monsters in the game, so the weapon is always part of the gameworld. A shotgun in a game wasn't independently built at some arms factory for maximum carnage, and it wasn't designed to simulate some super ballistic model. They're specifically balanced and placed in the game around the requirements of the game. So in most games with a double barrel shotgun, the game was designed from the ground up around having such a weapon, and the end result is basically a generic shotgun with a double barrel skin, just a big blast and underwhelming standard shotgun performance.

But most of doom's monsters were designed and balanced around the single barrel shotgun, with the double barrel coming later as an afterthought, so the designers were trapped with a baseline power multiplier they couldn't escape. They had to make it powerful and thats what gives it its flavor.


Most other games have also balanced power and ammo supply to be sure you won’t stick to same ssg all of the time.

Pegg said:

If the map is balanced around using the ssg then it isn't that overpowered. The shotgun is very boring to use when fighting stuff like arachnotrons and mancubi so the weapon is a pretty good addition to the game. Shotgun can help conserve ammo against further enemies but is outclassed by machinegun and plasma too, maybe those weapons are op by that reasoning!


Shotgun is already too powerful and awesome as beginning weapon, yet unlike ammo for bullets and cells, there is plenty of shells around. Sniping weak enemies and causing pain to pain elementals (unless you're not trying to save up cells and assure there lots of cells around, because plasma would work even better) is the only thing that chaingun can get use of later in game, hunting down a single imp up close is still preferable to do with shotgun for ammo purpose.

GhostlyDeath said:

The Tyson strategy is a speedrun challenge, such as UV MAX, Pacifist, NM100S, etc.


Like I said, such strategy has nothing to do with ssg and it's balance\overused-ness issue, and thus mention of it is irrelevant. It’s same like say “minigun is so overpowered in x game, both in sp and mp, makes the game too easy while counter it almost impossible which is so unfair and unbalanced compared to other” and you got reply “So what?? Then go play battletoads if you want some challenge and don’t like cheap broken overpowered miniguns”. That is offtopic.

GhostlyDeath said:

Let us duel on DOOM2.WAD MAP01 with a fraglimit of 200 over a dial-up modem (provided you pay for the phone service and long distance phone call).


Only at your expense.

vadrig4r said:

Filthy dumb newfag scum.


ojj boy, I was pwning ur mum n dad with ssg before you was even born (why F word is even allowed on forums -.-).

So far those people who are too dumb to defend their views with logical counterargument or simple don’t have anything to say, yet experience unpleasant burning feelings in their bottoms for not saying most nicest things to their beloved kaboom stick will always just use ad hominem instead.

Job said:

Is there a mod that removes the SSG from Doom 2? Because that would be great.


kek.


P.S. sorry for mah English tho, I’m not native English speaker.

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