Waist Deep in Blood (Single Vanilla LR Map)

[Doomkid]

This is an almost-vanilla (SCREW VPOs!!!) map, visually inspired by E3, E4 and later Doom2 maps. It's intended to be quite difficult on UV, however other difficulties are thoroughly implemented.

The name is a nod to Drown in Blood and Knee Deep in the Dead because those are both awesome sets of maps (duh). The difficulty sits almost directly between the two, fittingly enough.


Screenshots:







DOWNLOAD: http://www.geocities.ws/doomkid/fourish.zip (Slot: Doom2 map01)

I hope you enjoy, demos and feedback are always welcome!

[gaspe]

Fda, prboom+ cl2.

It's quite challening. I fucked up the encounter with the archiviles and the cyberdemon, I guess I was near the end. Cool map!

[Doomkid]

Thanks for the FDA, gaspe! I love watching these.

Edit: Mannnn, you got so far and were doing so well on one particular attempt, getting all the way up to the archie in the tiny little green castle thing before the asshole blasted you. Great playing in general, very crappy luck at the end there but a very entertaining demo!

[Jimothy]

Gave this bad boy a pair of run-throughs, and it was fun in the devilish, kick-you-in-the-shorts sort of fun that hurts like hell but still remains enjoyable. I went through it on a lower difficulty to get a feel for it, then took to it on HMP (which argumentably was most likely easier than UV, because what I experienced on HMP made me not want to touch it on UV lmao).

One big difference I noticed between the lower difficulty and HMP was the...well, beginning window showed two AVs and a Cyberdemon on HMP instead of just two Viles, complete with a need for new shorts. After that though, the experiences were mostly similar, with the early BFG being replaced by a plasma gun on HMP compared to lower difficulties. I did die quite a few times on HMP though, mostly due to early Revenant wombo-combos and the Cyberdemon and AV fight catching me rather viciously off-guard.

There were points in the map (such as the trek to the blue skull key and the sudden battle against the previously shown Archies and Cybie) that made me say, "Goddamn Doomkid, this is fiendish!" And it shows; I got my ass kicked around quite a bit, but I still had a rollicking good time all the same. Even if I did catch a few Revenant fireballs and Cyberdemon rockets with my face.

[T_Silverwolf]

Hey there!

I tried out your level and recorded a demo (after a fashion), I posed it here:

Unfortunately I can't record FDA's because I don't know how to command line apparently >_>

I apologize for the lack of audio, I was listening to a podcast at the moment and I'm still kind of new to recording videos. Hope you don't mind. Most of my thoughts are in the video but I really liked how you got a lot of mileage out of the same areas and the variety of combat encounters.

Thanks for posting this, Doomkid, it was a blast.

[NaZa]

T_Silverwolf said:

Unfortunately I can't record FDA's because I don't know how to command line apparently >_>

"directory leading to your engine (for instance "D:/Doom/prboom-plus.exe")" -iwad doom2.wad -file fourish.wad -record fourish_silverwolf.lmp -complevel 9 -skill 4

[T_Silverwolf]

Thanks, DL. I'm using the linux version of gzdoom and haven't quite mastered Bash Scripting, but I'll give it a shot and see what works when I get a few spare minutes to myself. ^_^

[NaZa]

T_Silverwolf said:

Thanks, DL. I'm using the linux version of gzdoom and haven't quite mastered Bash Scripting, but I'll give it a shot and see what works when I get a few spare minutes to myself. ^_^

I will suggest using PrBoom-plus when recording demos since it uses -complevels (compactibility levels to test out your maps in Boom, limit-removing, vanilla etc.) and ZDoom demos are not playable in any other source ports and ZDoom cannot play any demo that's not a ZDoom demo.

[joe-ilya]

Another great classic looking map by doomkid, you're the reason I like the classic theme and am inspired to make maps up into the theme.

I only died once (at the start) because I didn't the notice the chainsaw, but it's just me.

Here's to an FDA : https://www.mediafire.com/?fm6a300m391iycn

[gaspe]

Doomkid said:

Edit: Mannnn, you got so far and were doing so well on one particular attempt, getting all the way up to the archie in the tiny little green castle thing before the asshole blasted you. Great playing in general, very crappy luck at the end there but a very entertaining demo!

Thanks! At the end I wasn't unsure if go ahead and skip the cyberdemon and the archvile, in the hesitation I got a bit off-guard :P

[scifista42]

FDA - one rather hilarious death, then eventually success. I liked the map, particularly the compact layout, abstract but with sense of place, relative colorful-ness and texturing variety, good monster variety and challenging moments. What I didn't like was that some encounters basically required staying back, luring monsters out the door and camping; and also that most of the Baron of Hell encounters were just pointless prolongation of play time, for his high HP but low threat. The wine-colored custom palette tint kind of baffled me, I nearly thought something was wrong, it was a needless afterthought and didn't feel right IMO. And finally, the amount of powerups towards the end was a little too high/dense, for example there was a Soulsphere immediately followed by a Megasphere, and also 2 Blue Armors soon after each other. Anyway, good job! Rating 4/5.

[Doomkid]

I really appreciate these FDAs and comments, fellas! I do agree Scifista, I piled on too many powerups right at the end - A little anti climactic given the nature of the map. Thanks a ton to everyone for the feedback and demos, I love watching how different people approach the map.

[Demon of the Well]

Hello Doomkid, I hadn't really seen much of what you've made before (kinda had you pegged as a DM-dedicated mapper, apparently I was more than a little wrong), and so thought "what better opportunity?" Here is another FDA for you (skill 4, no deaths, 2/3 secrets).

Rather oldschool in aspect indeed, and in more ways than one, but I think my overriding impression was that despite clearly being a ground-up Doom II map gameplay-wise, it really sort of looks and feels a lot more like something for the original Doom from mid-E3 or thereabouts, what with all of the marble and wood and snakeskin and cement and whatnot, and of course the changed BGM track helps too. Architecturally clean and simple, I don't have any real qualms with the 'classic'/functional design, though I did feel a couple of the areas might've been slightly too small for the action you wanted to take place there, mainly the lava/flesh yard with the BK, and perhaps the ambush past the megasphere. I also feel like more directional lightcasting or shadowcasting (like the stuff you did in the wooden hall with the YK in it) would be a fine thing to add more of in future maps, particularly to add a bit of edge to fullbright/neutral-bright outdoor areas. Like scifista, I also noticed the palette-shift for the red screen-haze, but for my part I actually rather liked it. I'm a sucker for palette-mods in general, I guess, but in this case the way the change softened the visual 'capillary burst' effect of picking up berserk packs was particularly pleasantly convenient.

After a pretty interesting opening scenario (seems like there are more ways to approach it than any other single setup in the map) the gameplay does settle in and tends to get a bit camp-heavy, for sure. Sometimes this is problematic, but I didn't usually seem to mind so much in this case, perhaps because you mainly used weak monsters and a goodly helping of barrels in a number of places, something that always helps smooth over a lot of door-fighting. I think it also helped that while some areas pretty much inevitably became campathons, sprinkled throughout the map there were also opportunities to get a little more cute/clever if so inclined, e.g. being able to leap out a window and double back on the first arch-vile, or using the stair-barrels to troll the dudes across from the BFG.

It did strike me that most if not all of the later, heavier encounters were eminently exploitable; in some cases this seemed to me like a part of the design (e.g. the myriad of ways to hide from/manipulate the first cyberdemon), in others it seemed like more of an oversight, like when I unwittingly spoiled the ambush after the final teleporter by going back into a part of the map I wasn't "supposed to" at that time (to go and see if the BFG had lowered or summat), breaking intended lines of sight. Contrary to the machismo-addled notion that pure rash aggression (and fight setups which feed on or require it) is the only valid way of approaching the game, I think it's fine to occasionally have tough encounters that clever or perceptive players might be able to cheese out, but I reckon it's generally good to make them have to work a little more to do it; a few seconds of retreat are all that's ever necessary to reach safety in all of the fights here, something to bear in mind, and often something with a fairly simple fix--for example, when the two viles and cyb teleport away, having a third vile teleport into the mess of bodies beyond the megasphere (or even just in the blood pool before it) would've added an engaging layer of complexity to the fight, not eliminating one of the safe spots, but adding much more of a risk/reward aspect to initially getting into/using it.

A couple of things I simply didn't like:
* There is too much prop-clutter in the BK yard, the little scrub bushes and fire-barrels and whatnot are a far more sinister threat to life and limb out there than the ravening hellspawn. I kept getting caught on shit and damaged a few times as a result; to some extent I think this can be blamed on player clumsiness, but it doesn't feel right when you introduce an area that seems like it's supposed to feel 'open' but that in practice plays like it's more congested/cramped than standard corridors and the like. The revenant who blinks behind you here seems like he's supposed to force you out into the yard, but there's just so much shit in the way (and so many monsters dogpiled around the side of the building) that the whole run/gun angle here doesn't seem like it's credible. This is what I meant when I said the area seemed like it was physically smaller than the gameplay you put in it wanted it to be.
* IMO, the second cyberdemon is a superfluous timesink, especially since he usually won't be able to fire rockets at the player until they hit his barricade's switch, and even then he disappointingly is locked in place. I get the point of having a 'gatekeeper' monster in front of the exit, don't get me wrong, but in practice it usually just ends maps on a down note. What's worse is even after you blast this guy, there's a bona fide PCorf Baron (TM) playing slap-and-tickle with his frat buddies stuffed into the tiny exit room which just drags things out even more (although in this case I was unsure whether or not the slapstick door-jamming silliness which likely ensues was intentional comedy or not). Maybe having a knight or something in the exit would've been fine, but all in all I think the last few monsters are a net loss for the gameplay.
* Yeah, too many powerups too close together in the last few minutes of the map, too, as some others have said.

Criticisms aside, I was certainly entertained. Thanks for the Doom!

Edit: Oh yeah, how does one get that BFG?

[Doomkid]

I really like your criticisms, and have to agree with essentially all of them in hindsight. That gatekeeper cybie is too bland, there is too much crap in the outdoor field and essentially everything else you listed would benefit from a change. Thanks for taking the time to give be a detailed write up - it truly is immensely helpful for my approach to mapping.

there's a bona fide PCorf Baron (TM) playing slap-and-tickle with his frat buddies stuffed into the tiny exit room

ROFL

EDIT: Oh yeah, the BFG - Once you drop down from the little wooden room with the shotgunners in cages and the soulsphere and stuff into the blood pit by the start, the BFG lowers. It's far too cryptic in hindsight, it should absolutely be switch activated.

Thanks again man!

[RottingZombie]

I played in zdoom 2.7.1 -compatlevel 2 for fun (PRboom's mouse control feels laggy and weird to me), but if you are interested in a -skill 2 attempt, here it is

https://www.doomworld.com/vb/attachment.php?postid=1552285

I got lost and didn't finish this attempt so if that helps you in any way, good! Maybe you can see how a confused doomer goes through it. If you don't want to suffer through it no problem I play people's WIP for fun anyway :)

Cool map and I will finish it tomorrow

[scifista42]

RottingZombie said:

I played in zdoom 2.7.1 -compatlevel 2

That parameter is useless. Complevels are PrBoom-plus-only features, not to mention you mistyped "complevel". ZDoom is naturally incompatible with classic demo formats. Your demo will only be properly replayable in ZDoom 2.7.1. Actually, even that is not guaranteed to work (for example if you messed with menu or alt-tabbed out of the application during recording), because ZDoom's demo compatibility just sucks. That's why people use PrBoom-plus.

[plums]

I liked it. I'll echo that there are way too many powerups in the latter part of the map. The first half was very tightly balanced, with enough health and ammo so that I wasn't short but couldn't really waste much either (though berserk-punching everything was always a backup option). But by the end there's just way too much. I exited with 200/200 and still a megasphere unclaimed. The invuln+bfg secrets combined also make the red key door fight way too easy, after that point it was basically autopilot until the end.

I didn't find the BFG secret too cryptic actually, I thought it had to be available before the AV and cyber fight so I just went back there before opening the RK door and there it was for the taking. Maybe that was just a lucky guess.


edit:

RottingZombie said:

PRboom's mouse control feels laggy and weird to me

I had to disable mouse acceleration in Windows before PrBoom felt right to me. I think it's called "Enhance Pointer Precision" in the mouse options in Windows. For some reason some apps override this setting and others don't.

[scifista42]

plums said:

I had to disable mouse acceleration in Windows before PrBoom felt right to me. I think it's called "Enhance Pointer Precision" in the mouse options in Windows. For some reason some apps override this setting and others don't.

Great that you're back, plums, now rdwpa can finally get a positive answer to his request.

[RottingZombie]

scifista42 said:

That parameter is useless. Complevels are PrBoom-plus-only features, not to mention you mistyped "complevel". ZDoom is naturally incompatible with classic demo formats. Your demo will only be properly replayable in ZDoom 2.7.1. Actually, even that is not guaranteed to work (for example if you messed with menu or alt-tabbed out of the application during recording), because ZDoom's demo compatibility just sucks. That's why people use PrBoom-plus.

actually, compatlevel is the correct ZDoom argument...

And I know it won't be compatible with PRBoom hence my disclaimer that it was just for fun and it doesn't matter if he checks it out. I only posted for fun and in-case he wanted to see how a more casual player plays it. I Know why people use PRBoom + but I don't like it (unless you can help with my mouse issue).

I know how incompatible ZDoom is with classic formats that's why I mentioned that I played it in ZDoom (and the version) in the first place. I used -compatlevel because it's the best I could do in ZDoom to simulate Doom 1.9.

[RottingZombie]

plums said:

I had to disable mouse acceleration in Windows before PrBoom felt right to me. I think it's called "Enhance Pointer Precision" in the mouse options in Windows. For some reason some apps override this setting and others don't.

Thanks man. I always have acceleration off in Windows :). I'm not sure why it feels this way only in PRBoom. Might be that's how Doom.exe actually felt, I haven't played it since 98 or so. I guess it's not really acceleration, more that when i whip the mouse for a turn it seems to carry a little bit further than i turned, and there's more of a delay (input lag) that I don't feel elsewhere.

[scifista42]

RottingZombie said:

actually, compatlevel is the correct ZDoom argument...

I don't think so, because if it was, this page would list it: http://zdoom.org/wiki/Command_line_parameters

Where's your evidence/reference to the parameter?

[plums]

RottingZombie said:

Thanks man. I always have acceleration off in Windows :). I'm not sure why it feels this way only in PRBoom. Might be that's how Doom.exe actually felt, I haven't played it since 98 or so. I guess it's not really acceleration, more that when i whip the mouse for a turn it seems to carry a little bit further than i turned, and there's more of a delay (input lag) that I don't feel elsewhere.

Hm, what about vertical sync? I have a very similar-sounding problem with Quake when vsync is on, turning it off fixes it.

[RottingZombie]

scifista42 said:

I don't think so, because if it was, this page would list it: http://zdoom.org/wiki/Command_line_parameters

Where's your evidence/reference to the parameter?

Sorry it seems i mistyped my post, i used -compatmode
http://zdoom.org/wiki/CVARs:Configuration#compatmode

I thought you were trying to say the correct argument was -complevel or whatever prboom uses.

In any event I could try chocolate doom.

[RottingZombie]

plums said:

Hm, what about vertical sync? I have a very similar-sounding problem with Quake when vsync is on, turning it off fixes it.

Yea I hate vsync, I will check and make sure that it's off in PRBoom!

[scifista42]

RottingZombie said:

Sorry it seems i mistyped my post, i used -compatmode
http://zdoom.org/wiki/CVARs:Configuration#compatmode

That's not a command line parameter, but a console variable. Those need to be handled as described here. So your parameter didn't take any effect anyway. It should have been written like this:

+set compatmode 2

[RottingZombie]

Ahh ok. All the flags were set correctly in the menu when i checked though? Noted for next time thanks; I'm messing with PRBoom to try and get it feeling good.

Maybe I already had it set to Doom (Strict) so thought it worked the way i typed :)

[Doomkid]

plums said:

I didn't find the BFG secret too cryptic actually, I thought it had to be available before the AV and cyber fight so I just went back there before opening the RK door and there it was for the taking. Maybe that was just a lucky guess.

That was exactly what I had in mind while designing it - I'm glad you went and checked before exiting!

Thanks again to everyone for the feedback. All playthrough, regardless of the skill of the player, really do help me to gauge what needs fixing, so if you decide to record a demo in Choco doom RottingZombie, I'd be happy to give it a watch :)

[beast]

Good job Doomkid in scaring the s*** out of me, what a start to a level! I died six times, level unfinished as yet... PrBoom-Plus FDA