TNT Revilution: Final release now on ID Games!

[Tristan]

eh, I'd say BTSX E1 is thematically much closer to TNT than any other IWAD, so imo a modernised TNT would do well to have that kind of comparison.

[Hells Kitchen]

Had a play of some of the maps in this WAD. Absolutely love the soundtrack to Map 6, and Map 8 is some of the most mad fun I had in Doom since Maps of Chaos for Doom 1 and 2. Load up Ketchup v5, play from Map 1, hoard as many rockets and cells as you can, and Map 8 becomes some of the most badass fun you can have in Doom. Good stuff! Map 12 is awesome aswell, that atmosphere, and lots of tension. I don't often queasy when playing Doom, but Map 12 did it for me.

 

I did have one major negative experience, there was one map early on in the set (lots of nukage) where you find a secret soulsphere... and are rewarded with 3 Pain Elementals. Honestly that is bullshit.

 

In any case, what I've seen so far is a 100 billion times better than Evilution.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Hells Kitchen

[NecrumWarrior]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cg7e4o2hniue2vl/TNT_Necrum_Test2.lmp?dl=0

Played through Map02. I think I did a lot better than the last time I tried to record it. No problems encountered (not that I expect any). Recorded with GLBoom+ Complevel 2.

[Psyrus]

I'm at map06 right now.  One thing to point out so far is that the map names in the automap for Map05 and map06 are swapped (or the CWILV graphics are).

Edited April 8, 2017 by Psyrus

[AD_79]

On 4/6/2017 at 2:19 AM, Jaws In Space said:

That being said, I'm still going to find a spot for Total NoThingness somewhere in this wad, I'll just have to do it for one of my own maps.

Hey, mind if I suggest that you don't do this? The music selections on your maps (and throughout the wad, for the most part) are solid as-is and are in no need of changing.

[Psyrus]

Map14:

It may be possible to softlock yourself behind the gate that opens with a yellow key leading to the outside area if you activate the switch (linedef 3579) and run back inside.

[Jaws In Space]

Lets push that release date back a few days to May 26. This month is far busier than I expected it to be. Anyways I'm trying to get through one map per day, so far I'm up to map 10, only found minor visual bugs so far.

[Jaws In Space]

Bug on map 11. On easy you can get stuck in the yellow key room. I'm going to make the backside of that door a regular door so that it doesn't require a key to open, unless you have an alternative solution tourniquet.

[Jaws In Space]

Alright so I'm now pretty confident that I've located the big issues for maps 1-11. We currently have 2 maps that are not quite vanilla. Map 3 has 1 visplane overflow & 2 drawseg overflows. Map 11 has a drawseg overflow & 2 bugged out linedefs, for some reason projectiles disappear into these walls.

[tourniquet]

I'll take a look at it at the Drawseg Overflow, the projectile eating walls are kind of a bug in the Doom engine but the effect can be removed by flipping the line or removing upper unpegged.

 

Deleted a fair amount of lines in the critical area so the chance for an overflow should be gone now (~245 segs max)

Also removed the skill 2 key swap.

 

Here's the fixed map.

Edited April 14, 2017 by tourniquet

[axdoomer]

Saving on MAP03 will cause a savegame buffer overrun.

[AD_79]

Recent vanilla projects tend to ignore the savegame buffer.

[StalkerZHS]

You can turn the savegame thing off in choco doom... I think...

(because whoever plays with dosbox/doom2.exe?)

[Gez]

The only approved way to play is without save, pistol starting each map.

[printz]

Use Doom2+ by entryway. I no longer use the original id executables when I have the hacked ones by entryway which extend these crippling limits to hard to reach levels.

[axdoomer]

 Well... It's not really vanilla compatible if it overflows the savegame buffer. I wasn't aware of that new rule that states the contrary.

[Jaws In Space]

1 hour ago, AD_79 said:

Recent vanilla projects tend to ignore the savegame buffer.

Recent? Hasn't this been the norm for years now. It's not something that I even considered an issue while testing for vanilla compatibility.

[Tristan]

We ignored it in D2INO, and I remember when the issue came up I noticed that TNT2 was already ignoring the limit and that was around 2012-2013, it probably goes back way further though. TNT2 was calling itself chocolate-compatible due to this, but honestly it's such a minor limitation given everything else in vanilla I don't really see the point in having to go with a different label when everything else is within limits.

[Gez]

22 minutes ago, axdoomer said:

 Well... It's not really vanilla compatible if it overflows the savegame buffer. I wasn't aware of that new rule that states the contrary.

Yes it is, because you're not, in any way, obligated to save your game to play.

 

Also technically any map with at least one revenant is not vanilla compatible if the savegame buffer criteria had to be taken into account for vanilla compatibility. (Also every map with an Icon of Sin-style monster spawner.)

[Steve D]

41 minutes ago, Gez said:

The only approved way to play is without save, pistol starting each map.

Yeah, but then it would take me about 3 hours to beat one of my own maps if I had to actually survive it in one go. ;D

[Steve D]

I've fixed the issues axdoomer and Psyrus found in Map14 and I'll upload it after a final test. Thanks, guys!

[Jaws In Space]

For simple fixes like those I often just take care of them myself. So you don't have to post an update unless you really want to.

[axdoomer]

2 hours ago, Gez said:

Also technically any map with at least one revenant is not vanilla compatible if the savegame buffer criteria had to be taken into account for vanilla compatibility. (Also every map with an Icon of Sin-style monster spawner.)

What's wrong with revenants? They don't cause savegame errors.

 

I don't understand your point. Sure you don't have to save on maps with a monster spawner, but these levels are still vanilla compatible, even though this will crash the game. The monsters spawner causing a crash because of savegames is a well known issue, everyone that still uses a vanilla engine knows not to save when the monster spawner was initiated.

 

Anyways, levels that crash the game should be mentioned in the "known bugs" section of the readme file that will come with the wad. I think players should be made aware of this so they don't lose their game. Not everyone plays with the savegame buffer limit deactivated in Chocolate-Doom. Not even any need to say on which level, just say it's vanilla compatible except that saving may crash because some maps are too big.

 

Saying that it's vanilla compatible is misleading, but I'm not against saying that this wad is, since it's a non-issue for player who don't save, but at least mention it so players won't be caught off guard. Players must be told what are the bugs and where they are so that they will do what they must to avoid crashes.

 

Plutonia 2 has a such message in its readme file.

 

These are the affected maps: 3, 10,12, 17, 20, 21, 22, 24, 28, 29,31.

Map 16 crashes because there are too many scrolling walls.

[SFoZ911]

Gez probably mean regarding the Revenant that if you cause him to shoot too many homing missiles and save while they chase you, you might trigger an error.

[FearTheReaper]

17 hours ago, axdoomer said:

Saying that it's vanilla compatible is misleading, but I'm not against saying that this wad is, since it's a non-issue for player who don't save, but at least mention it so players won't be caught off guard. Players must be told what are the bugs and where they are so that they will do what they must to avoid crashes.

It's vanilla compatible because it doesn't increase limits in terms of mapping or add new features to them like these limit removing/boom compatible ports and Vanilla savegame and demo limits can be disabled in Chocolate Doom, being closest port to DOS executable for the modern OS-es. Also as someone else mentioned, some people will use Doom+ anyway. Doom Retro as balance between old and new is also option (with vanilla mode for these who still want classic experience).

[Gez]

17 hours ago, axdoomer said:

What's wrong with revenants? They don't cause savegame errors.

When a revenant shoots a homing missile, you can get that missile to live indefinitely by just keeping on running in circle. Keep doing that while accumulating more revenant missiles. Each missile is a mobj, each mobj takes up space in the save, eventually you will have enough missiles to exceed the save buffer. Therefore, any map with at least one revenant is a map which is vanilla-incompatible if "potential to exceed save buffer" is a necessary criteria of vanilla compatibility.

[Jaws In Space]

2 Drawseg overflows on map 14, the one to the north could be killed by removing one of those steps I think, the southern one needs a bit more work. Also Steve I got up to 126 visplanes by the Plasma Gun, but wasn't able to get higher than that, so looks like that's no longer an issue.

[axdoomer]

1 hour ago, Gez said:

When a revenant shoots a homing missile, you can get that missile to live indefinitely by just keeping on running in circle. Keep doing that while accumulating more revenant missiles. Each missile is a mobj, each mobj takes up space in the save, eventually you will have enough missiles to exceed the save buffer. Therefore, any map with at least one revenant is a map which is vanilla-incompatible if "potential to exceed save buffer" is a necessary criteria of vanilla compatibility.

With that logic we should remove every revenant and every monster spawner from Doom II for it to be vanilla compatible. The difference is that savegame buffer overruns never occurred in the original maps during normal play. The original maps were designed to avoid this issue. With your example, you may as well say that none of the maps are vanilla compatible since if you play the map for too long (1420 days), some variables will overflow and the engine will crash. 

 

The arguments that I'm reading try to legitimize maps that cause a savegame buffer overflow as vanilla compatible. The gold standard are the IWADs and it's an issue that you find in none of them. The limits in the engine were raised in order to accommodate the IWADs. Moreover, the savegame buffer overflows in this wad occur in the initial state of the maps (with no more things on the map than what was already on it when the map was loaded). 

 

Also, it can't be said that the offending maps are vanilla compatible since most modern vanilla engines allow some limits to be turned off. The gold standard for vanilla compatibility remains the good old doom.exe, even if nobody would use it to play. 

 

If you don't follow the gold standard, then you can say "My map is vanilla compatible, but don't go in this area else it will crash with a visplane overflow". Saying "My map is vanilla compatible, but don't save else it will crash with a savegame buffer overrun" is the same. 

 

Sure the maps will work with vanilla Doom, but not every of them is fully vanilla compatible. Vanilla compatibility is full vanilla compatibility, else it's Doom+ compatible, Chocolate-Doom compatible or something else. To simplify this, it's vanilla compatible with the exception of samegame buffer overflows.

[Jaws In Space]

Well I've finished up testing map 15 a few hours ago, halfway done now :) Also at this time, since I've tested the hell out of these maps to ensure vanilla compatibility & I don't want to keep doing that over & over again, I will not accept any updates for map 1-15 without a very detailed description of what changes were made. The only exceptions to this rule are maps 11 & 14 as they are currently not vanilla.

 

Anyways to prevent testing fatigue I've taken a break from that & spent a few hours making some updates to Lithosphere based on DWMC feedback. No I'm not trying to get this map into Revilution anymore :P I'll probably use this as my next Bloody Rust submission or something like that. For this update what I decided to do for the map was to cut out almost everything that Megamur & Kyka had added to the map & just keep Melons original simple & direct layout, with only a few very minor alternate path's. I've also changed up the weapon progression & really increased the population of the map a bit to make it more action oriented. I would appreciate any feedback to the changes I've made to this map.

Lithosphere

[StalkerZHS]

Lithosphere would probably make a good addition to Convilution (if anyone's even doing ANYTHING to that anymore)

as the whole thing was rejected by Dev and Rev, i kinda liked it when I played the 2009 beta...