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Jaws In Space

TNT Revilution: Final release now on ID Games!

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Alright Jaws, so here's the changes I've made for MAP16:

- Increase all tunnel widths
- Remove rev, PE, 1 sergeant from starting cave
- Increase the starting cave brightness by 16
- Reduce the size of the rocks in the secret blue water area with the zombiemen
- Widen the size of the door in the room you telefrag the vile in
- Put in a teleporter near the red key so the player can skip having to traverse the vile cave again to get to the exit den.

Sound good? I know this doesn't mean much until you've played it, but I'm hoping it's decent compromise.

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Map 20: Cybie doesn't appear in the map because it has no room to cross the teleport line. I imagine it works in ZDoom and was missed because of that.

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Marcaek said:

Why exactly is this using doom2.wad as a base and not tnt.wad?


Truthfully it doesn't matter whether you use Doom2.wad or TNT.wad, both will run Revilution just fine. I say run this with Doom 2 mostly because the simple fact is that more people have Doom 2 than have TNT, even if it is a minuscule amount these days. Secondly I wrote the story text to fit the Doom 2 text screens & I don't feel like writing an alternate story to fit the limited character space of TNT.wad. Also all of our map names fit on the Doom 2 automap, but not the TNT automap. Lastly I want consistency for people who run & watch Demos, I believe that you can watch demos recorded on either IWAD, but it requires unnecessary extra steps that can be avoided by simply having everyone use the same IWAD. So yes the reasons are pretty minor, but there is no reason to tell people to run this with TNT.wad when it is perfectly capable to run this using Doom2.wad

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Jaws In Space said:

Lastly I want consistency for people who run & watch Demos, I believe that you can watch demos recorded on either IWAD, but it requires unnecessary extra steps that can be avoided by simply having everyone use the same IWAD.

This makes sense, but then it would have been a better idea to claim that TNT.wad is the "official" IWad to record and run Revilution with, just for the sake of consistency with all the other projects whose name starts with "TNT".

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Made a few changes to map 17.
-Added a bunch more Arachnotrons, altering old enemy placement in a few areas
-Added a crusher to help kill the Cyberdemon faster
-changed a few enemies & added more barrels to the hallway leading to the Cyberdemon
-yellow key now required to open the yellow door
-killed the one pixel switch secret

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2r501o6w2k1xs2v/Revilution17.wad?dl=1

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Map 23 is still broken. In the small room with the chaingunner in the second secret, you get stuck if the little YK door isn't already open.

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The MP cyber in map 22 in the secret ankh area is wedged partly under a 96-high ceiling.

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Tarnsman's map26 is enormously better than "Lithosphere" which might be my least favorite in the entire set.

Slowballed progression with 'stand still and single shotgun stuff' gameplay stuff at the beginning, mandatory lava crossings, no feasible way to rush for the SSG. I still don't understand why so many maps (in general) force this sort of progression over the length of a medium-sized map, as if theirs is the first custom map to ever be made. At least pair the low-tier weapon with one of the RL/PR with a little ammo for it like Mechadon does. it doesn't even negate the emphasis on low-tier combat early on, and progression can eventually come in the form of more ammo for those stronger weapons. It's frankly more interesting than the whole 3 -> 4 -> 5/SSG -> 6 -> etc. sort of deal that has been done a million times.

The action from the SSG to the exit is all fine, the highlight being the RK fight with the big closets of former human troopers. PR secret is tricky enough to notice that it should definitely provide a bulk cell pack in addition to the PR.

The idea of the optional zones is cool and all but ultimately it's just totally unrewarding as far as actual fun goes: the north optional zone is a messy clean-up fight with a PE deployed in the distance and a silly death pit trap. A bunch of harmless cliff imps too. The south optional zone has a couple of chainers and some revs. Feels like a missed opportunity to have some action at the caliber of the RK trap (read: punchy, fun, enjoyable, satisfying, etc.). Resource-wise these parts aren't even a net positive. Worst part of all is the player has the unpleasant choice between tediously backtracking from the SSG/exit path if they realized they missed half the map or doing both optional zones first, i.e., without the SSG/RL. (Also, the teleporter out of the south optional area has a destination located in damaging liquid!)

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Okay, was a bit too harsh on map 26; it's actually a pretty fun map to just blitz through without killing most of the monsters. Suggestions:

- The first PE, thing 35, what a bore. Would delete.
- There should be a radsuit somewhere.
- The northern optional area, the one after the bridge with two revs, has annoying combat (distant ledge hitscanners + PEs that create a mess) and is an ammo sink. I was down to basically no ammo at one point. There's also no point in even going there for progression. Would put a BFG + 40 cells near the front of this area, and an additional bulk cell pack near where the berserk is, along with some more rocket boxes. (Nothing short of a BFG would make this area worth it. The fights along the main progression are very easy anyway, so it's not like it would ruin any balance.)
- The death trap inside is bad. It's the kind of trap mappers use and then rationalize via "Well there are dead marines on the floor so obviously that should have been a tip off of some sort" but there are no such traps in the mapset prior to this, so I think it's wrong to assume >5% of people would think about that. It comes down to stochastics, basically -- were you creeping around slowly because you are a door jamb inspector or something (you might survive), or did you enter the room fully, which is a totally natural thing to do with rooms (you die). Just feels very cheap.
- Material rewards in the southern optional area are better, but it could use three or four additional rocket boxes because it still felt like a waste of time. The tele destination needs to be moved of course. (Some of the spiteful use of lava in this map grates on me. It's like the map is just trying to be annoying.)
- PR secret as mentioned should also have a bulk cell pack.

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Here is a revised version of Malware
http://www.mediafire.com/file/cp87e71nz40raak/MalwareV5.wad

Changes

-General scale increased in the sections which are outdoors (Increased height of the sky).
-Some texture changes in parts, just cosmetic.
-Revenants replaced by sergeants at the start of the map on UV, remain imps on lower difficulties.
-PE removed from the NE section of the map. Replaced with a cacodemon.
-SSG added to the room where the blue/red key doors are. Another backpack added near the green armour at the start.
-More armour bonuses added.
-A two secret chain added to the north side of the map which connects up to the yellow key room. Blue/Red keys needed to access this though and a small trap with a megasphere as a reward and a better angle of attack for the YK room.

Hopefully this should remove some of the grating that people felt about this one.

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map28 is another that doesn't function properly in -cl 2. The small pits with imps tagged 22 fail to rise when they have monsters in them (works in nomo). There might be other breakages after that, but I reset and continued with -cl 9 at that point.

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Jaws In Space said:

Truthfully it doesn't matter whether you use Doom2.wad or TNT.wad, both will run Revilution just fine. I say run this with Doom 2 mostly because the simple fact is that more people have Doom 2 than have TNT, even if it is a minuscule amount these days. Secondly I wrote the story text to fit the Doom 2 text screens & I don't feel like writing an alternate story to fit the limited character space of TNT.wad. Also all of our map names fit on the Doom 2 automap, but not the TNT automap. Lastly I want consistency for people who run & watch Demos, I believe that you can watch demos recorded on either IWAD, but it requires unnecessary extra steps that can be avoided by simply having everyone use the same IWAD. So yes the reasons are pretty minor, but there is no reason to tell people to run this with TNT.wad when it is perfectly capable to run this using Doom2.wad

I want to check, doesn't PRCP use Plutonia.wad as its base? I could have sworn it does, but my memory's a little fuzzy as it's been ages since I've played PRCP, so I don't know if it does or just uses Doom2.wad. I think Devilution is going to use TNT.wad, just like how Plutonia 2 used Plutonia.wad, so if Revilution is the PRCP of TNT, you might as well follow what the PRCP team did to keep it consistent with the parallels.

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T-Rex said:

I want to check, doesn't PRCP use Plutonia.wad as its base? I could have sworn it does[...]

Yep, it does.

Eris Falling, elsewhere, said:

MAP26: Lithosphere - Melon, Kyka, Megamur, Jaws in Space
Time: 5:31 (6:35:43) | Deaths: 0 (76)

I stand by what I've said numerous times, the wrong map is getting cut. This for me is one of the best maps in E3, [...]

pls stay
9/10

edit: Ok seriously am I going crazy or what? People seem to be talking about this as if it's a really slow map to play, and I just can't see that at all.

Ah, that's a tough call man.

Tarnsman's map26 is several orders of magnitude better than Lithosphere, but its gameplay doesn't really fit in what you'd expect of a TNT-styled wad, with its many vicious traps including Arch-Viles all over the place.

On the other hand, Lithosphere's more laid-back, casual Doom II-style gameplay is more fitting, and way more reminiscent of TNT, with many parts evoking classic TNT maps (like a mixture of Quarry, Baron's Den and Metal). Thus, it would be a pity to see it gone. Then again, Lithosphere is plagued by weird gameplay decisions and ideas such as the inescapable pit in the crumbling structure, mandatory lava crossing and basically what everybody else said.

If rdwpa's suggestions are implemented, and since map 32 is gone, maybe Lithosphere could fill this slot ?
(Most notably if a BFG is added to the optional section, it would make it much more interesting)

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WH-Wilou84 said:

Yep, it does.

Ah, that's a tough call man.

Tarnsman's map26 is several orders of magnitude better than Lithosphere, but its gameplay doesn't really fit in what you'd expect of a TNT-styled wad, with its many vicious traps including Arch-Viles all over the place.

On the other hand, Lithosphere's more laid-back, casual Doom II-style gameplay is more fitting, and way more reminiscent of TNT, with many parts evoking classic TNT maps (like a mixture of Quarry, Baron's Den and Metal). Thus, it would be a pity to see it gone. Then again, Lithosphere is plagued by weird gameplay decisions and ideas such as the inescapable pit in the crumbling structure, mandatory lava crossing and basically what everybody else said.

If rdwpa's suggestions are implemented, and since map 32 is gone, maybe Lithosphere could fill this slot ?
(Most notably if a BFG is added to the optional section, it would make it much more interesting)

Thanks for clearing that up. So yes, if PRCP uses Plutonia.wad, then TRCP should use TNT.wad.

I second what you say there about Tarnsman's Map26. I mean, a map that is full of vicious traps and an excessive number of Arch-Viles, that's something you would expect a map that is in the style of Plutonia, not TNT.

While it's a good suggestion to put Lithosphere in the Map32, I think it would be better if a map that has a unique theme would be made to go with valkiforce's Map31 being an Egyptian map. I mentioned over at the DWMC's playthrough of TRCP that if only Sverre Kvernmo would consider giving another shot at making a vanilla map that can be as atmospheric, grandiose, and adventurous as his Eternal Doom and Master Levels maps, it could really be something awesome and a worthy candidate for a super-secret map if it has a unique theme going.

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T-Rex said:

I second what you say there about Tarnsman's Map26. I mean, a map that is full of vicious traps and an excessive number of Arch-Viles, that's something you would expect a map that is in the style of Plutonia, not TNT.


Did everyone just forget Heck exists or something? I mean I can forgive you if you do since it comes after Mount Pain and you might be in a complete stupor after playing that monstrosity.

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Tarnsman said:

Did everyone just forget Heck exists or something? I mean I can forgive you if you do since it comes after Mount Pain and you might be in a complete stupor after playing that monstrosity.

Heck is a tricky map on its own, but even so, it's not as demanding as Plutonia's maps.

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We already have a (non-Kvernmo) special map in the works for MAP32, so that's currently off the table for now.

The "this doesn't feel like TNT" argument is a bit redundant at this point because a number of maps in our set really don't evoke it either. I think that's part the problem with having such loose guidelines, since we got a lot of mappers making levels they feel are appropriate without really knowing if it's an honorable or fitting sequel to a wad that's 20 years old. I mean, rules like "more hitscanners, smaller levels" helps us, but something like Tarns' map still checks all those boxes.

That said, if there's a number of people keen on Lithosphere staying, then we could keep it by axing MAP06. I wanna state for the record that I find MAP06 more fun and enjoyable than Lithosphere, but if I'm in the minority here I'm not gonna fight back against the tide. My biggest gripes with Lithosphere are that it feels unfocused and the gameplay is a bore, and unlike MAP06 I don't really see any minor changes that could be applied to improve it. I mean, maybe I haven't thought about it enough, but it just feels like a wasted effort should anyone try and tune it up without doing massive layout overhauls.

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dobu gabu maru said:

That said, if there's a number of people keen on Lithosphere staying, then we could keep it by axing MAP06.




Though in all seriousness, I agree I'd rather see current 06 left where it is. Putting Lithosphere in 32 would also put me in a difficult position regards the MIDI in that slot, which has no business being on a map with a rather volcanic theme.
Fine, you guys win :P

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