Post Your Opinions About Doom (Whether Controversial or Not)

[Danz]

I hate chaingunners as a player.
But I love chaingunners as a mapper.

The duality of a man.

[baja blast rd.]

44 minutes ago, Rainne said:

As I understand it, UV-Max already has to make exceptions for unobtainable secrets, such as MAP15. These are all judgement calls, and remain as such even after some have been proven possible, like MAP15 100% secrets, or MAP30 Pacifist. Should those entire categories be invalidated too, even for maps everyone agrees on the requirements for, just because of some exceptions to rulesets that are otherwise clear in their intent?

 

First off, those are relatively low in number. Not all iwad maps even have those. 

 

Second, you're failing to make a relevant comparison.

 

Those 'exceptions' are pretty clear guidelines about end-level outcomes, and they haven't changed since the '90s. They prescribe nothing about the actual routes allowed or not. I'm tempted to say a closer comparison would forbidding a maxer from using a vile jump to sequence break a map, as in the early part of Alien Vendetta m23. 

 

Quote

This route is from SAV88's suggestion. The shortcut for UV-Speed 
is also useful for UV-Max. You can get BFG quickly and use it 
instead of a plasma rifle at many points. 

Which is a lot messier to do in an effective way.

Just tempted, because even entertaining this comparison is a waste of time anyway, because maxing is generally a lot less trick-dependent than the speed categories.

 

And btw, the sort of 'static guidelines' you cited are still kind of a mess at times. And anytime it's not clear what constitutes a 'valid run', we get threads like these. Or big debates in Discord, e.g. about edge cases in pacifist. 

 

44 minutes ago, Rainne said:

In most cases, the mapper's intent is obvious, so there's no excuse for treating all maps as vague, mysterious things that skilled speedrunners can't hope to comprehend. 

 

Looks like you misphrased that (bolding mine). Any time a run is worked on to any depth, speedrunners end up knowing more about the map than the mapper. In fact that's why your opinion even existed in the first place -- skips the mapper didn't indent or expect.

What is 'vague' and 'mysterious' is the mapper's intent. That is a different matter entirely. 

 

Also, if you don't have experience as a Doom runner and your awareness skews towards clearcut cases, you can be tempted into thinking this stuff is easy to enforce. But what you're missing out on is a very wide and messy 'middle class' of stuff between, like, basic SR40 on surfaces, and void glides / zero presses, that is hard to police and make clear 'guidelines' for. Hell, it's hard to be aware of all of that stuff until -- you guessed it -- someone spends time on a run.

 

Which gets me to my second reason: if there are no stable rules for what is allowed or not at the outset, how do you expect any runner to commit serious effort to a run? 

 

With the self-entitlement shown in this part...

 

 

44 minutes ago, Rainne said:

And basically, just play the damn map rather than avoiding the damn map. Oh hey, wonder how they handle these fights in MAP27? Never mind, everyone just tricks the archvile into opening the door to the exit, so that's the only part of the map you get to see people demonstrating excellence at.

 

...I'm guessing you don't even care about that. 'Yes, spend as much time grinding as you ordinarily would, but with criteria I care about rather than what motivates you.' But it's wildly unrealistic.

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by rdwpa

[Nine Inch Heels]

41 minutes ago, Rainne said:

As I understand it, UV-Max already has to make exceptions for unobtainable secrets, such as MAP15. These are all judgement calls, and remain as such even after some have been proven possible, like MAP15 100% secrets, or MAP30 Pacifist. Should those entire categories be invalidated too, even for maps everyone agrees on the requirements for, just because of some exceptions to rulesets that are otherwise clear in their intent?

There is a difference between "exceptions where they are required or have been deemed reasonable", and "We put people on rails and remove any and all decision making" from speedruns or UVmax runs.

 

Map 15 is a good example of what's an exception that is based on a mapping error which even made it past playtesting. Map 30 of doom2 is only possible to pacifist under TAS conditions, so it isn't an exception that actually affects "regular play" in the first place.

 

41 minutes ago, Rainne said:

In most cases, the mapper's intent is obvious, so there's no excuse for treating all maps as vague, mysterious things that skilled speedrunners can't hope to comprehend.

In every case imaginable, the intent of speedrunning is obvious: Beat the game/map in the fastest way possible. So there's no reason to dictate a path people may or may not take, because there is only one "fastest path" to begin with. Finding and using the fastest path is what speedrunning is about. It does not care about the author's intent, and not all maps are linear pathways from point A to point B.

 

41 minutes ago, Rainne said:

Beyond that, it can be defined relatively simply as "don't use any technique that can only be done by exploiting engine bugs", such as wallgrabs or void glides. Most speedrunning is done in IWAD maps, for which author intent has already been largely established, and which are a finite set of maps to consider when drawing up a rulebook. There are some gray areas such as rocket jumping (for example, it's the intended way to reach the secret exit in E3M6 and therefore a valid use of the technique), but these only have to be settled for the category as a whole, rather than negotiated for each individual map.

It's practically impossible to play Doom without exploiting some manner of engine bug, be it intentional or not. What are you gonna do? Check every demo out there for instances where people press run and strafe at the same time? And then what? Disqualify the run for exploiting an engine bug called "straferunning"?

Oh, what about getting new people into speedrunning? Are they now supposed to read a rulebook about what's allowed in a map according to a standard you want to impose? Good luck with that, because sometimes new runners don't even make it past the "getting started" page on DSDArchive.com before they start asking questions that the very same page has answers for. Wanna guess who has to answer those questions on discord? Yours truly and a few other people who can be bothered to help. Now we're also supposed to be bible thumping a "rulebook" because you don't like the speedrunning meta as is? And then we'll also have to double and triple check every demo before it gets uploaded, never mind cases where somebody gets off the "intended path" during a +100h grind, only to get their fastest run disqualified?

 

41 minutes ago, Rainne said:

And basically, just play the damn map rather than avoiding the damn map. Oh hey, wonder how they handle these fights in MAP27? Never mind, everyone just tricks the archvile into opening the door to the exit, so that's the only part of the map you get to see people demonstrating excellence at

If you want to see people do the fight, watch a UVmax demo, that's what they're there for. If you want to see people get to the exit as quickly as possible, watch a UVspeed, that's what they're there for.

 

We have a good thing going on in doom speedrunning, and the things that you call exploits, and want to "de-legitimize", are what actually gets new people interested in checking the game out, partially thanks to YouTubers like Karl Jobst who do their homework and approach the runners in question directly, and prolific runners like for example Dime. Everything is fine, nothing needs to be changed. Speedrunning is all about skipping as much as possible, it always has been, and it won't change just because you want it so.

[Rainne]

3 minutes ago, rdwpa said:

They prescribe nothing about the actual routes.

Nor do I. My idea is about conduct ("don't use glitches"), and so are other categories like UV-Tyson ("don't use weapons except xyz") and UV-Pacifist ("don't harm enemies directly"). Following that conduct will naturally bring the runner within the scope of the mapper's intent because the runner won't be violating a reasonable mapper's assumptions about what the player is and is not capable of. For example, if the exit door is locked, you will need to obtain the key. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[Fonze]

Sounds like you found a great niche to run Rainne; maybe you should lead the way, make a bunch of at least somewhat decently optimized demos and see if others follow your example!

[Nine Inch Heels]

23 minutes ago, Rainne said:

My idea is about conduct ("don't use glitches")

So here's the problem: Many games out there have a "glitchless" category, but Doom does not. It never established itself as a category proper, because, unlike other games where it's a bit more clear what a glitch is or isn't, the line in Doom is a lot more blurry nowadays, and since doom is the grandmother of speedrunning, concepts like "glitchless" didn't really exist back when things got off the ground. That's why discussions as to whether or not for example SR40 should be legal never really happened back in the days when compet-n saw the light of day, which was when the baselines for runs was established as far as I'm aware, and we're still seeing runs for those very same old maps today, and they're beholden to the same standard, which is "anything goes, as long as you don't pass of a TAS as a non-TAS", to put it simple.

 

SR40 and SR50 are glitches in the sense that the developers most definitely were not aware of the difference in speed. Void-gliding is also a glitch in the sense that developers were not aware that it's possible to even go out of bounds thanks to "tricks" like wall-running, which itself is a consequence of straferunning. So the moment you enter a discussion about a glitchless category for doom, you have to somehow explain why for example SR40 is an acceptable glitch to use (because you literally can't avoid doing SR40 during a run, even if you tried), and why for example things like zero-press, void glide, or plain thing-running would not be acceptable. You also have to somehow be able to do that in a way that doesn't end up being arbitrary, and then you also need to manage to somehow put your ideas into perspective wrt modern maps, which sometimes require the use of "glitches" to even be doable in the first place.

 

Then there's also stuff like damage boosting. You have to somehow explain why it's okay to take damage that propels you forward in one case (like getting shot in the back), but not in the other (rocket jumping). And then you also need to defend your position against the very fact that taking damage from one's own rockets is literally the intended behaviour of the game. So when I do a rocket jump to skip parts of a map, why is it illegal? I am using the intended mechanics of the game. Now you want to disqualify the run because of what you think the "intended way" to beat the map is. At this point the intents of the developers are literally at odds with one another. This is where every discussion about what Romero et al intended goes up in smoke, or worse, ends up becoming a short lived meme.

[Solmyr]

The BFG should need 200 cells to fire it, not 40. Also its way too overpowered, and any custom monster that uses a BFG ball attack is trash.

Infinitely tall enemies in vanilla Doom and Doom II was a terrible mistake that hindered flying monsters and players alike, it's so annoying to bump into off-screen cacodemons, and its pretty sad that we can't use an arch-vile jump to propel ourselves to ride a large wave of pinkies/spectres.

Heretic is a better Doom engine game than Doom itself and it deserves far more respect, more dedicated mappers and modders.

D'Sparil is a rather poor boss in comparison to Iron Liches and Maulotaurs, but still far more dignified as a final boss than the pushover Spider Mastermind, and the Icon of Sin.

 

 

[Super Mighty G]

2 hours ago, Rainne said:

Nor do I. My idea is about conduct ("don't use glitches"), and so are other categories like UV-Tyson ("don't use weapons except xyz") and UV-Pacifist ("don't harm enemies directly"). Following that conduct will naturally bring the runner within the scope of the mapper's intent because the runner won't be violating a reasonable mapper's assumptions about what the player is and is not capable of. For example, if the exit door is locked, you will need to obtain the key. 🤷🏻‍♀️

As a mapper I deliberately will not discourage any sequence breaking the player takes and I don't think other people should either. As has been said speedrunners do not care about the intent of the progression and I see no need to stifle their ingenuity.

[noshutdown]

1.the firing rate of chaingun and plasma gun shall be swapped.

2.firing rate of rocket launcher shall be slowed down.

3.the traces damage of bfg9000 shot shall be emitted from the location where the energy ball hit rather than the player.

[noshutdown]

4. e4m2 is not a hard map.

[Spectre01]

22 minutes ago, noshutdown said:

4. e4m2 is not a hard map.

Nice flex bro. ;) It may not be hard by PWAD standards but it certainly is within the scope of E4 and Ultimate Doom.

[Roofi]

More unpopular opinions about doom mapping !

 

- Many gzdoom maps are not really beautiful because of the overdetail as well as the overabundance of effects such as fog and glowing lights.

- OTEX is a very good texture pack but it's not a texture pack I would see in Doom. Eviternity looks like another game to me (this is not a reproach).

- When people present their very first map, the screens discourage me from playing them more often than they encourage me.Without wanting to be mean, the screenshots often show the rudimentary aspect of the very first maps.

- A wad is not "classic" for me if I can't run it on DOSBOX.

- Deadly pits in a map are not a bad thing. Giving the player a chance to get out all the time is pretty strange to me. 

- A mapper should be able to finish his own map. If his map is difficult, he should be able to finish it in HMP difficulty or at the limit HNTR.

- Purple is a really overrated color. I don't understand the appeal of mapmakers for this color. 

 

[Rainne]

7 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

you have to somehow explain why for example SR40 is an acceptable glitch to use

 

So when I do a rocket jump to skip parts of a map, why is it illegal? I am using the intended mechanics of the game.

My standard here would be toward the intent the ruleset is designed to accomplish: preventing skipping, so the audience can watch the speedrunner actually play the map. My standard in these cases would be: if you could do it without the glitch, it's okay to use the glitch anyway. So SR40 is fine for covering ground; but not for making a jump that would otherwise be impossible. (For SR40 in particular, I might also say it counts as a glitch in IWAD maps but is fair game in PWADs: it's trivial to do, so a mapper would likely just consider it part of any player's normal toolkit: so for example if they want to ensure a gap is uncrossable, they would test it against SR40 (but not SR50, SR360-no-scope, jumping in ZDoom, etc), while the IWAD mappers would not have.)

 

For rocket jumping, that's more of a gray area, although I would say it counts as a glitch: it's not something a mapper expects players to be able to do, certainly not to do at-will. But that part is more nebulous, like E3M6. I'd say, as a rule of thumb, just disallow it entirely always count it as a glitch: if you're thinking of ways to skip parts of the map (or generally to go somewhere you couldn't go without it), you're already in the wrong mindset for a category like this.

 

We could hash these out all night, but the existence of exceptions and complications doesn't invalidate the basic idea any more than an unreachable secret in MAP15 invalidates UV-Max. If you don't like the resulting rules, or generally don't want to run the map, just stick to UV-Speed.

 

5 hours ago, Super Mighty G said:

speedrunners do not care

 

Precisely. If I'm mapping, my target audience is people who do care about the map. (If I'm a chef, my target audience is people who will enjoy the meal, rather than just dump my hard work on the floor in order to reach the clean-plate state more quickly.) People who think boundaries are a joke that they can impress each other by bypassing are people I don't want to be appealing to. Basic survival thing. If they don't like it, well, there is a much simpler way to avoid playing a map.

 

In any case, I think it has proven to be a Controversial Opinion About Doom. 💁🏻‍♀️

[Super Mighty G]

4 hours ago, Rainne said:

Precisely. If I'm mapping, my target audience is people who do care about the map. (If I'm a chef, my target audience is people who will enjoy the meal, rather than just dump my hard work on the floor in order to reach the clean-plate state more quickly.) People who think boundaries are a joke that they can impress each other by bypassing are people I don't want to be appealing to. Basic survival thing. If they don't like it, well, there is a much simpler way to avoid playing a map.

Not appealing to speedrunners and actively trying eliminate any possible deviation from the intended progression are two different things. Of course I am not going to design primarily for speedrunning but I'm also not going to remove possible shortcuts or oversights as long as it doesn't make the map unfinishable. It's the same as using vanilla to reach a broader audience.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Super Mighty G

[Beginner]

Spoiler

5 hours ago, Rainne said:

My standard here would be toward the intent the ruleset is designed to accomplish: preventing skipping, so the audience can watch the speedrunner actually play the map. My standard in these cases would be: if you could do it without the glitch, it's okay to use the glitch anyway. So SR40 is fine for covering ground; but not for making a jump that would otherwise be impossible. (For SR40 in particular, I might also say it counts as a glitch in IWAD maps but is fair game in PWADs: it's trivial to do, so a mapper would likely just consider it part of any player's normal toolkit: so for example if they want to ensure a gap is uncrossable, they would test it against SR40 (but not SR50, SR360-no-scope, jumping in ZDoom, etc), while the IWAD mappers would not have.)

 

For rocket jumping, that's more of a gray area, although I would say it counts as a glitch: it's not something a mapper expects players to be able to do, certainly not to do at-will. But that part is more nebulous, like E3M6. I'd say, as a rule of thumb, just disallow it entirely always count it as a glitch: if you're thinking of ways to skip parts of the map (or generally to go somewhere you couldn't go without it), you're already in the wrong mindset for a category like this.

 

We could hash these out all night, but the existence of exceptions and complications doesn't invalidate the basic idea any more than an unreachable secret in MAP15 invalidates UV-Max. If you don't like the resulting rules, or generally don't want to run the map, just stick to UV-Speed.

 

One definitely could propose "lame" modifier to skill-speed categories, which could be defined as "no tricks allowed unless mandatory", but there are several problems, like the fact that that garbage doesn't cover cases where speed comes from stupid map's oversights rather than elaborate tricks. The other thing is that majority of shitpost novelty categories (like ">100%") and/or modifiers (like "ballerina" or "turbo", skills that aren't UV or NM) don't gather much interest.

[Nine Inch Heels]

4 hours ago, Rainne said:

If I'm mapping, my target audience is people who do care about the map. (If I'm a chef, my target audience is people who will enjoy the meal, rather than just dump my hard work on the floor in order to reach the clean-plate state more quickly.)

Aaaaah, there it is.... The stereotypical "speedrunner doesn't care about the map" line of thinking. It's been wrong since the dawn of time, and it's always gonna stay wrong in the future.

 

Nobody spends more time playing a single map after it's released than a speedrunner does, and that's especially true for IWAD maps. Your target audience is most likely playing the map once or twice, while a speedrunner puts in dozens or even hundreds of attempts (if not more). Most people don't even look at the maps in a builder to see how it's built and set up, but a speedrunner usually does. They're the ones who find things in your maps you yourself didn't even think about, never mind your target audience. Surely that must be because "they don't care about the map", right? Surely elim, looper, 4shock, zero-master et al still put in hundreds of hours, doing something they like doing, because they don't care, right? Clearly, their only intent is to spite mappers, because all speedrunners are evil.

 

4 hours ago, Rainne said:

For rocket jumping, that's more of a gray area, although I would say it counts as a glitch: it's not something a mapper expects players to be able to do, certainly not to do at-will.

I'm also a mapper, and I'd like you to stop assuming what I expect out of players when I build a map. Thanks.

 

And no, damage boosting isn't a glitch. There are no grey areas when it comes to glitches. Either something is part of how the game was meant to behave, or it is not part of how the game was meant to behave. In the case of rocket jumps it means it's nothing other than creative use of a mechanic the devs put in the game on purpose.

 

The moment you're trying to redefine what a glitch is or is not, especially when you declare intended behaviour a glitch, you're at a point where it isn't a controversial opinion any more, but instead you're out in wonderland where nothing needs to make sense, and anything goes if only you ordain it so. That's all fine and dandy if you're playing by your own rules, but the moment you want others to rally around your idea, let alone establish rules and guidelines, it'd better make some actual sense instead of being an arbitrary standard that lacks common sense.

 

4 hours ago, Rainne said:

so for example if they want to ensure a gap is uncrossable, they would test it against SR40 (but not SR50, SR360-no-scope, jumping in ZDoom, etc)

 

Nobody records speedrun-demos with a ZDoom based port unless that port is absolutely necessary to use for the map in question, and even then ZDoom-based runs are less than few and far between. As for what mappers may or may not test against, you're greatly underestimating the mappers and playtesters of this community, in particular the qualified ones who have a decent routine and proper work-ethics.

 

4 hours ago, Rainne said:

People who think boundaries are a joke that they can impress each other by bypassing are people I don't want to be appealing to. Basic survival thing. If they don't like it, well, there is a much simpler way to avoid playing a map.

There is a very simple way to keep speedrunners away from your map: Put the entire map on a timer that starts when the map is loaded, set the timer to something ridiculous like 60 minutes, so that even the greenest of players will have to wait a while before the exit is accessible, and there you have it... Nobody's gonna bother looking at how your map could be finished faster. Granted, that map will then also suck for pretty much everybody else, but if you hate speedrunners so much, and demand that everybody looks at everything in the map at least once before getting to the exit (which speedrunners do anyway, fyi), go ahead and put that timer in.

 

By the way, it's pretty clear that this isn't about establishing a glitchless category. It's about you being offended by the idea that a speedrunner might enjoy playing and ultimately speedrunning your map, because you know literally nothing about speedrunning classic doom or the dedication some people have. Speedrunners don't speedrun maps out of spite, they do it because they like the map in question, and many speedruns out there are the result of how several people liked playing the same map to the best of their abilities, so much so that eventually they figured out how the map can be finished in the fastest possible way. The speedrunning discord isn't a cage of frenzied gorillas beating their chests, it's a place where people work towards a common goal and usually support one another despite the fact that there is some competition and friendly banter involved as well.

 

Anyway, I kinda need to get back to, you know, pissing mappers off by beating their maps as quickly as I can to make sure that "normal players" don't accidentally softlock themselves when the maps get released. One last thing though: Your opinion wasn't controversial, it was plain misinformed. You don't know anything about speedrunning or speedrunners. I don't know where you hang out to get the idea that we're all evil assholes who brag about how we broke this and that in some map somebody made, but whoever is telling you nonsense like that is a prejudiced asshat who is at least as clueless and out of touch with the scene as you are. Then again, if you can't be bothered to actually get in touch and develop an informed opinion of your own, by all means, stay misinformed for all I care.

[Fonze]

Rainne, I think the fundamental thing that you're failing to understand is that speedrunners don't have to play your maps, or any particular maps for that matter; they dont have to spend time learning to "break" any particular map. They only do so because they actually do enjoy the map; it is an honor to have one's creation speedran because that shows that somebody was willing to put that much of their own time into playing and experiencing one's work.

[Super Mighty G]

While I could do without the vitriol, NIH's point is absolutely correct. 

[GarrettChan]

I maxed CChest Map29 and talk bad about this map at the same time, so I assume I like the map according to the theory that speedrunners don't run you map if they don't care :P

 

Yeah, I can't represent everybody, but at least I don't run maps that I don't like.

Edited January 27, 2020 by GarrettChan

[John Wheel]

6 hours ago, Rainne said:

My standard here would be toward the intent the ruleset is designed to accomplish: preventing skipping, so the audience can watch the speedrunner actually play the map. My standard in these cases would be: if you could do it without the glitch, it's okay to use the glitch anyway. So SR40 is fine for covering ground; but not for making a jump that would otherwise be impossible. (For SR40 in particular, I might also say it counts as a glitch in IWAD maps but is fair game in PWADs: it's trivial to do, so a mapper would likely just consider it part of any player's normal toolkit: so for example if they want to ensure a gap is uncrossable, they would test it against SR40 (but not SR50, SR360-no-scope, jumping in ZDoom, etc), while the IWAD mappers would not have.)

 

For rocket jumping, that's more of a gray area, although I would say it counts as a glitch: it's not something a mapper expects players to be able to do, certainly not to do at-will. But that part is more nebulous, like E3M6. I'd say, as a rule of thumb, just disallow it entirely always count it as a glitch: if you're thinking of ways to skip parts of the map (or generally to go somewhere you couldn't go without it), you're already in the wrong mindset for a category like this.

 

We could hash these out all night, but the existence of exceptions and complications doesn't invalidate the basic idea any more than an unreachable secret in MAP15 invalidates UV-Max. If you don't like the resulting rules, or generally don't want to run the map, just stick to UV-Speed.

 

 

Precisely. If I'm mapping, my target audience is people who do care about the map. (If I'm a chef, my target audience is people who will enjoy the meal, rather than just dump my hard work on the floor in order to reach the clean-plate state more quickly.) People who think boundaries are a joke that they can impress each other by bypassing are people I don't want to be appealing to. Basic survival thing. If they don't like it, well, there is a much simpler way to avoid playing a map.

 

In any case, I think it has proven to be a Controversial Opinion About Doom. 💁🏻‍♀️

 

I think you're describing walkthroughs, which already exist a-plenty.

[Rainne]

55 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

There is a very simple way to keep speedrunners away from your map: Put the entire map on a timer that starts when the map is loaded, set the timer to something ridiculous like 60 minutes, so that even the greenest of players will have to wait a while before the exit is accessible, and there you have it...

My idea would be something like putting a buried exit switch right next to the starting point. (Or similarly some sort of shortcut that'd take a glitch and/or speedrunner's skill to execute, like an SR50 jump.) Something a normal player would never discover/execute on their own, but would be obvious when looking at the map in an editor, or being told about it by someone else.

 

The speedrunner would have no choice but to press it at once; rendered powerless to do otherwise. The rest of the map is for people who care about maps.

[famicommander]

Mouselook, crouching, and jumping are for wusses (unless it's a custom .wad that needs it).

 

I prefer to play on a gamepad with a d-pad for movement and shoulder strafing. Any other PC FPS besides classic Doom or Wolfenstein and I prefer a keyboard and mouse, but with Doom give me that old school digital movement.

 

I use this:

 

D-pad to move

Big paddle digital shoulder buttons to strafe

B to shoot

A to open things

Y to run

X for automap

ZL for previous weapon

ZR for next weapon

select to open menu

start to pause

 

On the modern consoles I'll use the dual analog scheme because they make you, but I'd prefer this.

[Nine Inch Heels]

2 minutes ago, Rainne said:

The rest of the map is for people who care about maps.

Yeah, you clearly don't get it, or you're actually trolling at this point. Regardless, you've wasted enough of my time.

[Hcoop111]

I should try using a controller i have a ps3 ps4 and a 360 one i could try out 

[seed]

11 minutes ago, Rainne said:

The speedrunner would have no choice but to press it at once; rendered powerless to do otherwise. The rest of the map is for people who care about maps.

 

Dude seriously now, NIH and others explained to you that likely no one else cares more about maps than speedrunners considering how much time and effort they're willing to invest into getting the most out of the experience and discover a billion ways to finish it.

 

Is a regular player willing to invest so much in it? I very much doubt it. There's really no need to hate on them so much, it's unjustified and plain misinformed.

[GarrettChan]

1 hour ago, Rainne said:

My idea would be something like putting a buried exit switch right next to the starting point. (Or similarly some sort of shortcut that'd take a glitch and/or speedrunner's skill to execute, like an SR50 jump.) Something a normal player would never discover/execute on their own, but would be obvious when looking at the map in an editor, or being told about it by someone else.

 

The speedrunner would have no choice but to press it at once; rendered powerless to do otherwise. The rest of the map is for people who care about maps.

 

Please make such a map!

[Super Mighty G]

 

Let's just take a minute to appreciate how in depth and nuanced speedrunning is. 

[Lorenz0]

So here's my controversial opinion:

 

Rush.wad is very overrated and shouldn't be recommended to people as an entry level slaughterwad.

 

I'm only somewhat a fan of the slaughter playstyle, but I highly appreciate the ingenuity in encounter design of famous wads such as Sunlust, Sunder, and both Stardates. They're all amazingly creative and Rush is anything but that. It focuses more on the grindy aspect of slaughter gameplay and feels really amateurish in places. The second map has some moments where you can trigger a fight and back out to a previous room to pick off all enemies from a distance, safely hiding behind cover. The third map literally starts with a doorway shootout. At that point I completely lost interest in playing the wad anymore.

 

It may be recommended because it's supposedly easier than most slaughtermaps (and has some good fights between the bad ones as well), but there are far better choices available. My recommendation for newcomers would probably be Sunlust as it has a proper difficulty curve and eventually evolves into something filled with large scale encounters, which kinda became a staple of what slaughter is known for.

 

 

[Summer Deep]

1 hour ago, famicommander said:

Mouselook, crouching, and jumping are for wusses (unless it's a custom .wad that needs it).

 

 

 

Agree with you about crouching and jumping, but surely the original creators of Doom would have included mouselook/freelook in the game if it had been a straightforward option at the time (or maybe if it had occurred to them)?

[GrogLoopy]

The pistol can be useful at times.