Post Your Opinions About Doom (Whether Controversial or Not)

[noisebloom]

Someone may have already posted this, but...

 

MAP31 of Doom II is not fun. I got a kick out of it for the first few times, but because the level design of Wolfenstein pales in comparison to most Doom maps, it's a chore to me. Everyone that plays Doom II Co-Op online seems to love it, and I just don't get it. Just exit Industrial Zone normally, plz...

[Spie812]

My biggest problem with Map31 is that the scale is totally fucked up. Why is everything like twice the size it should be?

 

Other than that I think it's fine for a hidden bonus map. 

[GarrettChan]

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

mid tiers that aren't bullet sponges are limited to cacos

I think UDoom only has Caco and Baron as medium weight monsters? If Baron could be called as medium weight... and Caco is already quite bullet spongy to me if you only have the Shotgun. If a mapper forces me to Shotgun down 10 Cacos or something, I already feel not so happy (Then somebody probably will make a map with Shotgun + 10 Cacos for me :P).

 

Now I think back a little bit, maybe 10 years ago or something, I used to think Hell Knight is a dumb idea that because we have the Baron already, but now I really think it's a smart idea to have this in the monsters. Then Rev, PE, Manc and Archie are really great monsters to have since they fill in so many gaps between Caco and Baron. Every time I saw the platform of a new WAD is UDoom, I probably lost half of my interest already... Yeah, I admit I'm so biased.

[Nine Inch Heels]

7 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

I think UDoom only has Caco and Baron as medium weight monsters?

Yeah, you have cacos, then a whole lot of nothing, and then the already tanky barons. Anything else Doom2 has between those, like mancs, trons, or viles, just in terms of HP, doesn't exist in UDoom.

[Juza]

Doom 1's mostly boring to me because of the lack of aforementioned "medium weight" monsters. Most of the time you're just shooting cannon fodder (Imps, Zombies, Pinkies), and the 'tanky' monsters are basically bigger Imps. One of the only ways they're made threatening is if there's a large swarm of them in a small area with not much space to move.

[taufan99]

PSX and Saturn DOOM are nice enough to put DOOM II monsters in Ultimate DOOM maps, but even that I still think there's still not enough of them in the maps, at least in the levels from the first 3 episodes.

[Clippy]

On 2/2/2016 at 3:42 AM, HorrorMovieGuy said:

I wish the final boss was another boss monster like the Cyberdemon or Mastermind instead of the Icon of Sin. A really bullet spongey one, with a powerful attack(s).

Oh man so true I always hated how all wads ends like that. They are always my least favorite levels

 

I want to fight a monster not a hole in the wall

[ReaperAA]

21 minutes ago, Clippy said:

Oh man so true I always hated how all wads ends like that. They are always my least favorite levels

 

I want to fight a monster not a hole in the wall

 

Some wads like Eviternity and Valiant have proper boss monsters ;)

[Bob9001]

9 hours ago, galileo31dos01 said:

- Quarry is more boring than Habitat, both maps of Evilution. I thought this way back when I was watching BigMacDavis videos after having played each map, as he claimed that map to be his favourite, whereas mine was my least favourite, and it still is nowadays. It's forgettable quickly, Habitat isn't, whether you want it or not.

 

Hmm, but atleast Quarry is short and that's the name of the map it's a Quarry, really simple.

 

Nobody likes Habitat and I hope whoever made it, feels bad with the evil they created. Like I have a few questions for the developer of that map, along the lines of: 'What were you thinking?'

[seed]

6 hours ago, taufan99 said:

PSX and Saturn DOOM are nice enough to put DOOM II monsters in Ultimate DOOM maps, but even that I still think there's still not enough of them in the maps, at least in the levels from the first 3 episodes.

 

Well, that depends I guess.

 

The Chaingunners blend in perfectly, but it definitely shows that, since the monsters weren't finished in time for the OG Doom, the whole game was pretty much designed without them in mind. The usage of D2 enemies feels pretty random sometimes - such as the Pain Elemental in E1M1.

[Spectre01]

Looks like this leaves some room open for a "Doom 1 the Way id Would Have Done with Doom 2 monsters" community project. ;)

[seed]

2 minutes ago, Spectre01 said:

Looks like this leaves some room open for a "Doom 1 the Way id Would Have Done with Doom 2 monsters" community project. ;)

 

I would've been all for it tbh :p, but after UDTWID...

[taufan99]

54 minutes ago, seed said:

The usage of D2 enemies feels pretty random sometimes - such as the Pain Elemental in E1M1.

I especially find the Arachnotron at Refinery rather jarring.

[seed]

20 minutes ago, taufan99 said:

I especially find the Arachnotron at Refinery rather jarring.

 

Eh, honestly I can't say I don't see why they put it there, but it does feel a bit random when entering that room. Still better than nothing, as seen in other ports of that map though...

[MFG38]

MAP24 is an underappreciated masterpiece.

[Looper]

13 hours ago, noisebloom said:

MAP31 of Doom II is not fun. I got a kick out of it for the first few times, but because the level design of Wolfenstein pales in comparison to most Doom maps, it's a chore to me. Everyone that plays Doom II Co-Op online seems to love it, and I just don't get it. Just exit Industrial Zone normally, plz...

Now have you tried to speedrun the map with -nomonsters parameter ":D" Then it's fun and addictive.... 29 seconds ore die trying!

[Solmyr]

14 hours ago, galileo31dos01 said:

- Quarry is more boring than Habitat, both maps of Evilution. I thought this way back when I was watching BigMacDavis videos after having played each map, as he claimed that map to be his favourite, whereas mine was my least favourite, and it still is nowadays. It's forgettable quickly, Habitat isn't, whether you want it or not.

To each their own, but no wonder Habitat is more memorable than a mediocre map like Quarry, Habitat is so terrible to play and look at, that it sticks more in collective memory.

 

14 hours ago, galileo31dos01 said:

Ultimate Doom mapping is as limited as you let creativity to be.

As long as you use DeHackEd wizardry or mapping for sourceports that allow the use of Decorate or similar lumps to add monsters that compensate the limited monster roster without adding Doom 2 monsters or "poorly disguised" clones of such monsters.

[Aristaeus]

The SSG isn't overpowered per se. Its just that it warps the game design around itself. Having such a powerful weapon with plentiful ammo pushes the player's power level up dramatically, so more spongy monsters have to be added to compensate, which means that the importance of many other weapons (like the regular SG) is diminished.  Ultimately I think whatever problems it has can be largely solved through good map design etc.

 

Chasm and Barrels o' fun are both good. Slough of despair is one of the best maps in OG Doom, hand and all.

 

Doom 1 is far more consistently good than Doom 2, which has massive quality spikes and poor pacing (why did they get rid of the weapon reset at the end of an episode/give you an SSG in map 2???)

 

Classic doom pretty much never got better than E1 of Doom 1, followed by Doom 64 and (most) of the rest of Doom1 with Doom 2 behind that bar some individual good maps.

 

Plutonia is often difficulty for difficulties sake and isn't actually interesting to play and navigate.

 

Petersen was the best individual designer, but his love of gimmicky maps make him far less consistent. (Is that controversial? I don't know anymore.)

[MortisCausaDonatio]

E1M8's track is overrated

[seed]

21 minutes ago, Aristaeus said:

Doom 1 is far more consistently good than Doom 2, which has massive quality spikes and poor pacing (why did they get rid of the weapon reset at the end of an episode/give you an SSG in map 2???)

 

This is the most popular opinion on DW...

[taufan99]

9 minutes ago, HUNdebLeonidasX said:

E1M8's track is overrated

How weird, I don't see that many people like it. Praise, yes it does get, but still not that much for me.

[Nine Inch Heels]

24 minutes ago, Aristaeus said:

The SSG isn't overpowered per se. Its just that it warps the game design around itself. Having such a powerful weapon with plentiful ammo pushes the player's power level up dramatically, so more spongy monsters have to be added to compensate

The shoe is on the other foot, as far as I'm concerned. When you compare Doom1's standard roster to Doom2's, you'll notice that Doom1's roster has more holes than swiss cheese. You have 1 Mid-Tier in Doom1, which is the caco, then you have the extremely tanky baron (which is by original definition a boss) and nothing between the two. Then you also need to consider that Doom1's roster is only hitscanners, and straight-line-shooters, so Doom1 has nothing elaborate in its roster.

 

That being said, it seems far more likely that id decided they'd need to close the huge gap in the roster, and then chose to add a weapon that was gonna be able to handle these threats in a more economic manner (which happens to also fit into the power gap between chaingun and rocket launcher, because it needs to in order to do its job). The fact that people nowadays can play most of Doom2 with the SSG (not that it is necessary, but cell-hoggers be hoggin' cells) is mostly due to how much ammo id placed -coupled with how easy the maps are by today's standards, and not due to how powerful the weapon is, despite it being deliberately more powerful than shotgun or chaingun.

[Aristaeus]

14 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

The shoe is on the other foot, as far as I'm concerned. When you compare Doom1's standard roster to Doom2's, you'll notice that Doom1's roster has more holes than swiss cheese. You have 1 Mid-Tier in Doom1, which is the caco, then you have the extremely tanky baron (which is by original definition a boss) and nothing between the two. Then you also need to consider that Doom1's roster is only hitscanners, and straight-line-shooters, so Doom1 has nothing elaborate in its roster.

 

That being said, it seems far more likely that id decided they'd need to close the huge gap in the roster, and then chose to add a weapon that was gonna be able to handle these threats in a more economic manner (which happens to also fit into the power gap between chaingun and rocket launcher, because it needs to in order to do its job). The fact that people nowadays can play most of Doom2 with the SSG (not that it is necessary, but cell-hoggers be hoggin' cells) is mostly due to how much ammo id placed -coupled with how easy the maps are by today's standards, and not due to how powerful the weapon is, despite it being deliberately more powerful than shotgun or chaingun.

 

Yeah that's fair. I don't think its entirely clear what came first, the weapon or the monsters (it might be more a gradual development of both rather than one as a reaction to the other?) but I take your point. Like I said, I think its something that really needs to be designed around.

 

The other part of the problem of there being too much ammo lying around I think is that shotgunners drop ammo. Because the basic hitscanners are far more foddery in 2, the temptation is to put down far more of them OR to make more of them shotgunners instead of basic zombies to compensate for it and have a chance of doing some chip damage, which means more loose ammo lying around to feed the SSG. One SSG blast can kill so many shotgunners that in quite a few circumstances it easily pays for itself in a way weapons like the chain gun rarely can.

 

If I could make one simple change to Doom, it would maybe be the ability to toggle a monster as to whether it drops its weapon/ammo that could really help with this (and weapon progression In general)

 

But yeah, a lot of it is definitely in map design and them putting too much stuff around the place as well.

[Gez]

14 hours ago, Spie812 said:

My biggest problem with Map31 is that the scale is totally fucked up. Why is everything like twice the size it should be?

Because they're cubes.

 

So in the original version of Wolfenstein 3D, everything gets a 64x64 texture. (Except the floors and ceilings who don't get a texture at all, obviously.) That means that the size of a "cube" is 64x64x64. Now Doom has a greater in-game resolution than Wolf. You can see it for yourself, make a 64x64x64 cube in Doom, with just one player start in it, and look how cramped it looks. Compare with a custom Wolf maps that's just one single cell. Still cramped, obviously, but much less so. Enters the Mac version of Wolf 3D. It has double in-world resolution, everything is a 128x128 texture. A custom map of just one cell in Mac Wolf would look just the same size as its equivalent in PC Wolf, despite having four times as many texels.

 

The issue here is that Doom's in-world resolution is somewhere between PC Wolf and Mac Wolf. Something like 96x96 would probably work well to represent Wolf cells at the Doom texture scale. But that's an awkward grid size, it's much simpler for everyone if you choose either 64x64 or 128x128. And so Id chose to have 128x128 grid for the Wolf cells, because too big is better than too small.

[xdarkmasterx]

1 hour ago, Aristaeus said:

The SSG isn't overpowered per se. Its just that it warps the game design around itself. Having such a powerful weapon with plentiful ammo pushes the player's power level up dramatically, so more spongy monsters have to be added to compensate, which means that the importance of many other weapons (like the regular SG) is diminished.  Ultimately I think whatever problems it has can be largely solved through good map design etc.

 

 

I disagree, I think that some enemies in Doom already had too much health for how simple their attack patterns are (caco, baron etc.), playing through a Udoom wad recently only cemented my opinion. If they had less health (so that pinky dies in 1 SG shot, caco in 2 and so on) I might have a different opinion on SSG, but as it stands it feels like the ideal weapon for the game when not giving super powerful wepaons like RL

[Aristaeus]

3 hours ago, xdarkmasterx said:

 

I disagree, I think that some enemies in Doom already had too much health for how simple their attack patterns are (caco, baron etc.), playing through a Udoom wad recently only cemented my opinion. If they had less health (so that pinky dies in 1 SG shot, caco in 2 and so on) I might have a different opinion on SSG,

 

 

Fair enough. I don't disagree that it's a very different rhythm. The difference between backing up because a pinky takes 2/3 shotgun shots and just being able to one shot it with the SSG is pretty big. I'm not sure which I prefer tbh.

Quote

but as it stands it feels like the ideal weapon for the game when not giving super powerful wepaons like RL

I don't disagree with this at all. It has to be at the power level its at because of the big expansion of mid tier enemies that the regular shotgun couldn't quite keep up with. That's my point really. I'm not trying to argue that the SSG is a bad weapon, or that it doesn't fit in D2; just observing that the need to have a mid/low tier weapon that can keep up with the new mid tier bruisers of D2 means that the SSG HAS to be as powerful as it is.

 

 The trouble in my mind is mostly that it ends up being a bit too versatile in cutting through the low tier hits-canners as well as the mid tiers and ends up eclipsing some of the other weapons; especially when combined with the difficulty of map design that doesn't tend towards having a lot of shotgun ammo.

[BetaMarine]

DOOM x AC is just as bad as Baby Yoda, if not worst

[Li'l devil]

Doom Remake 4 was so underrated. Should've been awarded a cacoward for the best-looking mod. Instead most people trashed it because they have bad taste. And now thanks to Bethesda and their BS this mod is gone now...

[Spectre01]

@Li'l devil This is a serious thread for people expressing their honest opinions, not a place for ironic shitposting and #chan-tier bait.

[seed]

3 hours ago, Li'l devil said:

Should've been awarded a cacoward for the best-looking mod. Instead most people trashed it because they have bad taste.

 

Maybe you can tell us what "good" taste is then...

 

And besides, considering the way that project worked, there was no way it wasn't going to get into trouble.