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Post Your Opinions About Doom (Whether Controversial or Not)

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1 minute ago, whirledtsar said:

I dont think the average new Doom player goes on the wiki and watches speedruns before booting up the game for the first time.

 

Perhaps not, that's a fair point.

 

But still, just like with everything, it behooves them to do their research about the ports and games they're using/playing. Not doing this simply means what NIH said on the previous page, that they aren't interested too much in their own game and prefer having things pre-configured, because surely, literally doing a 5 minute search is too much of an intellectual struggle that only "elitists" can do.

 

I mean seriously, here, a quick Google search about "jumping in classic Doom" returns these results, if this is too much for them to learn, I really cannot call this any other way than simple laziness on the user's end:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=jumping+in+classic+doom&oq=jumping+in+classic+doom&aqs=chrome..69i57.4746j0j7&client=ms-android-huawei-rev1&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

 

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"This can be achieved for a number of source ports which implement jumping by using an input device key which can be bound to a dedicated jumping feature. Jumping was not implemented originally in the Doom engine, and neither Doom nor Heretic offer it, however it was added to Hexen and Strife."

 

There is really no excuse for being THIS lazy. Seriously. This isn't rocket science or building the time machine.

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6 minutes ago, whirledtsar said:

I dont think the average new Doom player goes on the wiki and watches speedruns before booting up the game for the first time

Good job missing everything else that wasn't speedruns or wiki. Also you'd be surprised how many people showed up after these supposedly obscure speedrun videos that nobody watches.

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26 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Source port devs aren't gonna put warning signs into the options menu, and older sets like scythe won't get updated with a mapinfo either. That problem is here to stay, and the only way to get around it is for players to find out eventually, which, as far as I'm concerned, they will, if they stick around for long enough. So ultimately players are burdened with the "learning process" that is finding out that jumping might be problematic, even more so in older maps. And that's "good enough" in my opinion. It's not like you'd need a crash course in mapping formats or source port physics to understand the basic idea. Knowing about that stuff helps, but isn't necessary at all. And there's really nothing elitist about pointing out that it is on the players to figure this out eventually. Is the situation less than ideal? Sure is. But it is what it is. Hell, if people aren't sure about jumping in classic Doom, they can literally put "jumping in classic Doom" into a search engine, and they will get very clear answers just one or two links in, if it even takes that much "effort".

 

I'd definitely be more than happy to have ports like GZDoom display on-screen messages when it detects for example boom-format actions, and warning about using the jump feature. But it's not going to happen. In fact, back when Anotak provided a Zscript that would give out warnings, or disable jumps entirely, guess who was one of the first to parachute into the thread, and argue against the use of said Zscript? You're god damn right it was none other than Graf himself. Have a link. Matter of fact, he himself said that he worked several overrides into the port, which in turn made the efforts of the respective mappers obsolete. If you wanna direct the word "elitist" into any particular direction, I'd suggest you put it where it really belongs.

 

I agree the problem is here to stay and give credit/concessions to the line of thinking that these settings should be on by default; I'm also not advocating source port devs clouding up their menus with warning signs. All of that is beyond silly and makes no sense other than to discredit those ports and shame people from using those settings, which again, is not something I agree with. I also agree that the learning process does fall on the newcomers to learn this stuff simply based on it being the reality that we live in, but just because something is our reality doesn't make it correct or good. So the situation may be what it is but that is also what was being spoken against. It's not an appropriate response to somebody claiming that global warming is a problem to then say "well it is what it is." Like ummm I know that but it's still a problem though. 

 

While there may not be anything elitist about pointing out that players will have to learn this stuff eventually because it is the situation we live in, there is something elitist about expecting somebody to know to research something they have no idea exists or is a thing. You say yourself that all this stuff gets mentioned over and over... probably because it's an unfortunate situation that this is a recurring problem among newer users and thus it is the opposite of helpful to treat it as something that is expected of newcomers to pick up on.

 

I'm not here to build strawmen to agree upon being elitist; I read that thread when it was new and I know how graf acts towards that type of stuff. Also it's more than possible for multiple parties to be elitist so mentioning graf is a flimsy thing to do. I mean I guess the common ground is nice but I already agree with many of your points so the common ground is kinda already there; I just dont agree with the conclusion.

 

 

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@seed said:

if this is too much for them to learn, I really cannot call this any other way than simple laziness on the user's end:

 

And you claim this is not elitist? 

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1 hour ago, seed said:

But still, just like with everything, it behooves them to do their research about the ports and games they're using/playing. Not doing this simply means what NIH said on the previous page, that they aren't interested too much in their own game and prefer having things pre-configured

Things should be preconfigured to reasonable defaults, shouldn't they? Especially for newbies. You don't think that it's reasonable that a person proactively does a websearch on every feature in a game they just started playing, to learn how it is supposed to be used, do you? If this is expected, it is bad design.

 

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1 hour ago, Fonze said:

And you claim this is not elitist? 

 

Yes, Fonze, unironically and unapologetically... Okay, I'll try again, sigh...

 

Look, I think something's very wrong with your perception of things in general if calling someone lazy for literally not wanting to be bothered to even enter something as simple as that into Google - when it, by all means, literally gives them the answer in the first 4 paragraphs -, it cannot be anything other than unwillingness to learn even basic aspects of the gameplay and not caring at all about experiencing the game the way the authors intended. I don't expect them to know everything from day one or anything like that, but still, a VERY basic understanding of how the game is meant to be played (strictly talking about vanilla/Boom/MBF here), and what features are added by their port of choice IS something they should be willing to learn or research over time.

 

Videos exist, guides exist, forums exist, wikis exist, and people more than happy to teach and explain things to newbies when they ask also most certainly exist, including yours truly, contrary to your opinion about me - I think you've made it pretty clear that you're thinking very lowly of me at this point, and I won't pretend I'm not seeing that. There is so much information out there on this matter - literally even in this very topic at this stage - they would be purposefully ignoring it to miss it completely... and I really cannot see how any of this is even remotely "elitist".

 

If it was something complicated to understand I would probably see things very differently. But it is not. Learning that "jumping and freelook = bad" in vanilla because it is not how the game was meant to be played and it can, and will, have nasty repercussions, is something they will discover very quickly, maybe even before jumping into the game at all if they, say, make a topic on a forum asking for ports recommendations and setting them up correctly, and some newbies have done in the not so distant pass.

 

This is my last reply on this matter, I think I've made my stance crystal clear at this point, so make of that what you will. Let's just agree to disagree because we have opposing views and no common ground can be reached and leave it there. I'm already feeling like I'm starting to be trolled.

 

@dr_st That depends on the nature of the source port to me. For something like Chocolate or Crispy, yes, I wholeheartedly agree due to the nature and goals of these projects. For something like ZDoom, I do not.

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Ah....the "The Non-Vanilla Empire Of Settings Strikes Back" topic is back. Oh well...the majority know that, at least in the zdoom family ports, those restrictions can be overridden with a simple click in those options. 

Most newer players will kinda ignore the mapper's decision of restricting those features anyway and, personally, they can do the hell they want because I'm not gonna fight it.

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2 hours ago, Wagi said:

 

Fun fact, when crouching was first introduced to ZDoom, the creator of Skulltag initially refused to port the feature in. After being goaded into it by the community, he eventually added a cvar to enable it called sv_iwanttocroucheventhoughitsstupidandunnecessaryanditsimplementationishorribleimeancomeonverticallysquishingspritesthatsinsanebutwhatevergoaheadandhaveyourcrouching. It defaulted to false.

Oh wow. Although, I need some more proof of the cvar name being even real.

That way, this will be much more hilarious.

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11 minutes ago, InDOOMnesia said:

Oh wow. Although, I need some more proof of the cvar name being even real.

That way, this will be much more hilarious.

It's true

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3 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

wheeze-45335616.png.9311f67621f27b0b6040a8d5af301948.png

I swear, the hilarity of some of our fandom's stuff.

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34 minutes ago, seed said:

That depends on the nature of the source port to me. For something like Chocolate or Crispy, yes, I wholeheartedly agree due to the nature and goals of these projects. For something like ZDoom, I do not.

Maybe it's time for ZDoom and clones to stop being viewed as a Doom source port and be seen as a derived project, then. Maybe it already has, I don't know.

 

To me the test is simple - if a newbie comes over and says "I found my dad's old CD of the original DOOM; which source port do you recommend that I use to play it on my modern PC?", then the answer better be a port that does not have jump/crouch enabled by default.

 

8 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

And it should be typed manually and there is no auto-complete and you cannot bind it to any key or assign any alias.

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52 minutes ago, seed said:

 

Yes, Fonze, unironically and unapologetically... Okay, I'll try again, sigh...

 

Look, I think something's very wrong with your perception of things in general if calling someone lazy for literally not wanting to be bothered to even enter something as simple as that into Google - when it, by all means, literally gives them the answer in the first 4 paragraphs -, it cannot be anything other than unwillingness to learn even basic aspects of the gameplay and not caring at all about experiencing the game the way the authors intended. I don't expect them to know everything from day one or anything like that, but still, a VERY basic understanding of how the game is meant to be played (strictly talking about vanilla/Boom/MBF here), and what features are added by their port of choice IS something they should be willing to learn or research over time.

 

I think that this is where the fundamental issue is shown. First off, I agree that doing a simple google search is not a hard thing to do and I agree that somebody not wanting to learn about stuff they know they do not know about is lazy, but you fail to account for the fact that not everybody is going to know that they dont know about it yet. That assumption of taking your own knowledge for granted is what I would call elitist.

 

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Videos exist, guides exist, forums exist, wikis exist, and people more than happy to teach and explain things to newbies when they ask also most certainly exist, including yours truly, contrary to your opinion about me - I think you've made it pretty clear that you're thinking very lowly of me at this point, and I won't pretend I'm not seeing that.

 

Lol what? I don't think lowly of you; please don't assume that. My point is also regardless of how willing you, me, or anyone else is to explain these things to people, as even that requires that the newcomer find out they dont know about a thing. If anything, your response thus far only really calls the people you explain this to lazy because they knew enough to ask the question but didnt do the "simple google search."

 

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There is so much information out there on this matter - literally even in this very topic at this stage - they would be purposefully ignoring it to miss it completely... and I really cannot see how any of this is even remotely "elitist".

 

If it was something complicated to understand I would probably see things very differently. But it is not. Learning that "jumping and freelook = bad" in vanilla because it is not how the game was meant to be played and it can, and will, have nasty repercussions, is something they will discover very quickly, maybe even before jumping into the game at all if they, say, make a topic on a forum asking for ports recommendations and setting them up correctly, and some newbies have done in the not so distant pass.

 

This is my last reply on this matter, I think I've made my stance crystal clear at this point, so make of that what you will. Let's just agree to disagree because we have opposing views and no common ground can be reached and leave it there. I'm already feeling like I'm starting to be trolled.

 

Agreed. If you can't see the obvious I won't continue to waste your and my time pointing it out. But you did literally continue the conversation after the last time you said this type of dismissive comment so... maybe don't accuse me of both trolling and "thinking lowly of you." I'm not here attacking your character so don't attack mine. We can discuss the ideas and logic behind them but beyond that I don't even know who you are.

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39 minutes ago, dr_st said:

To me the test is simple - if a newbie comes over and says "I found my dad's old CD of the original DOOM; which source port do you recommend that I use to play it on my modern PC?", then the answer better be a port that does not have jump/crouch enabled by default.

 

Bingo.

 

This is also what I do as well, newbies should first familiarize themselves with vanilla and after that, they can use something less so. If I recommend ZDoom derivatives I make sure to mention it is not a conservative port which does not have vanilla friendly defaults and they should be tweaked accordingly before playing.

 

13 minutes ago, Fonze said:

I think that this is where the fundamental issue is shown. First off, I agree that doing a simple google search is not a hard thing to do and I agree that somebody not wanting to learn about stuff they know they do not know about is lazy, but you fail to account for the fact that not everybody is going to know that they dont know about it yet. That assumption of taking your own knowledge for granted is what I would call elitist.

 

And here is what you're missing again - when did I even imply that they should know what they don't know? That's virtually impossible to do before they even start doing anything. No. What I mean is to have a basic foundation and then expand upon it over time. This isn't even remotely "elitist".

 

18 minutes ago, Fonze said:

Lol what? I don't think lowly of you; please don't assume that. My point is also regardless of how willing you, me, or anyone else is to explain these things to people, as even that requires that the newcomer find out they dont know about a thing. If anything, your response thus far only really calls the people you explain this to lazy because they knew enough to ask the question but didnt do the "simple google search."

 

No, it's the other way around. This is another proof you're missing the point despite understanding what you read. The "call out for the lazy" was aimed only at those who take their own lack of knowledge and interest into the game on a very basic level as being sufficient. These are the people who would never bother to ask anything about how the game and various wads be should be played and why do these settings exist to begin with, they just want to play and nothing else, they don't care about what they're playing. And that's kind of where I'm seeing a problem, the lack of awareness and assuming everything is set up correctly by default, which does not apply to advanced ports. A variety of ports exist for a reason, one should never assume one size fits all, and read a bit about them and their feature sets as well as differences.

 

As about the "thinking lowly of me" part, that was in response to your previous replies, which did very much look like they were meant to be an attack, so I took it as such, heh.

 

32 minutes ago, Fonze said:

Agreed. If you can't see the obvious I won't continue to waste your and my time pointing it out. But you did literally continue the conversation after the last time you said this type of dismissive comment so... maybe don't accuse me of both trolling and "thinking lowly of you." I'm not here attacking your character so don't attack mine. We can discuss the ideas and logic behind them but beyond that I don't even know who you are.

 

No, for you see, I tested you without you even knowing, I knew you were going to reply again after the mention - there was no point in mentioning me again on this page if you expected no reaction from me at all, wasn't it? - so I saw an opportunity to do this. I made one more reply to see whether I was going to get another angry-looking response - in which case I was going to stop then and there - but it was not, which is great, so we can keep having conversations without resorting to aggression it seems. Good.

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5 hours ago, seed said:

 

Never really understood this honestly.

 

How does it differ from WASD considering it's literally just one more key to the right for each command.

Besides the reasons pointed by m8f, there's another I personally have. It's the AZERTY keyboard.

 

The ESDF keys don't change between AZERTY and QWERTY. But A and Q are switched, and so are Z and W. I've experienced some WASD games that did not allow rebinding controls, just imagine a ZQSD control scheme on a QWERTY keyboard. Horrible.

 

3 hours ago, Wagi said:

Fun fact, when crouching was first introduced to ZDoom, the creator of Skulltag initially refused to port the feature in. After being goaded into it by the community, he eventually added a cvar to enable it called sv_iwanttocroucheventhoughitsstupidandunnecessaryanditsimplementationishorribleimeancomeonverticallysquishingspritesthatsinsanebutwhatevergoaheadandhaveyourcrouching. It defaulted to false.

He should have separated each word with an underscore to make it longer to type.

(Not that it would bother anyone who knows about the console's tab-autocompletion feature.)

 

1 hour ago, dr_st said:

Things should be preconfigured to reasonable defaults, shouldn't they? Especially for newbies. You don't think that it's reasonable that a person proactively does a websearch on every feature in a game they just started playing, to learn how it is supposed to be used, do you? If this is expected, it is bad design.

The jump key isn't bound by default in Doom configs, for the same reason the controls aren't bound to WASD. To jump, you must first go into the menu and assign a key to jump.

 

 

 

Wiki article idea: list of IWAD maps that are actually broken by jumping.

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9 minutes ago, Gez said:

Wiki article idea: list of IWAD maps that are actually broken by jumping.

It is much easier to list maps that can't be broken with jumping and by extension rocket jumping.

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I've been Playing Blood for a while, and I think i prefer it over doom. it's just. idk, it feels more Explosive than doom.

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4 hours ago, seed said:

 

Perhaps not, that's a fair point.

 

But still, just like with everything, it behooves them to do their research about the ports and games they're using/playing. Not doing this simply means what NIH said on the previous page, that they aren't interested too much in their own game and prefer having things pre-configured, because surely, literally doing a 5 minute search is too much of an intellectual struggle that only "elitists" can do.

 

I mean seriously, here, a quick Google search about "jumping in classic Doom" returns these results, if this is too much for them to learn, I really cannot call this any other way than simple laziness on the user's end:

 

There is really no excuse for being THIS lazy. Seriously. This isn't rocket science or building the time machine.

Why would a new player using a piece of software alleging to be a port of the original be "behooved" to spend their time researching the specifics of how accurate it is? Why would they ever think to google "jumping in Doom" without foreknowledge? It's completely reasonable and not "lazy" for them to jump into a game without research. 

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5 hours ago, seed said:

 

Eh, I dunno, most of the levels in the second half certainly don't look like "traditional Doom" to me, to say so.

 

Just like AV also turns into slaughter later on.

 

Whaaat? Get outta here, nothing in AV is slaughter outside of map 32. 😮

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None of these MAP-level-number-thingamajigs have a The Cheat. Where is my The Cheat?! I've never been sidekickless before! :c

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Controversial: I like TNT Evilution's "Mount Pain". It's long and grindy but feels like an adventure. Gameplay is varied - think of the radsuit run -, you have some decent fights like the two arachnotron areas and the imp slaughter, and the outdoor area with the Lost Soul mountain in the background is just beautiful.

 

11 hours ago, 666shooter said:

I don't mind running around maps looking for weapons- Valiant does it all the time- but I stopped on Map 14 because it started with a Valiant or Plutonia 2 surrounded-by-death approach, except rather than running to find a rocket launcher or an SSG so I could fight back, I found the regular shotgun in an itty bitty room cramped with a Baron and some imps... and then an archvile and God knows what else as soon as I grabbed the weapon. This kind of approach to challenge just feels so much more trollish than entertaining to me. I don't know, I guess I'll give Cyberdreams a try instead if I want a puzzle-style mapset.

 

I think your general opinion about the first half of Hell Revealed isn't that controversial - there are many, including me, who consider most of these maps mediocre or directly bad (although I like particularly map 14 from pistol start, it feels really satisfying once you manage to troll the monsters back and get a foothold). But the classic maps which many find "inspirational" are in the latter half, particularly 22, 24 and 26 which are in my opinion as a mediocre player really challenging and not just trollish, but 15 and 16 are also pretty memorable - you can give them a try directly if you want. (Cyberdreams is really cool, however, and I don't think that's controversial ...)

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6 hours ago, DOEL said:

 

Whaaat? Get outta here, nothing in AV is slaughter outside of map 32. 😮

 

and 26 :p

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1 hour ago, Matthias said:

 

and 26 :p

 

Ah, definitely true. Not gonna lie, I usually skip 26. 13, 14, 25, and 27 are my favorite maps.

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The super shotgun is stupidly boring. Terribly inefficient against low tier enemies, and a brain dead grind against every other enemy.

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Is that really an unpopular opinion? Certainly, looking at the top 100 most memorable maps.

 

Map 27 of Alien Vendetta is far better than the famous map 20 "Misri Halek". Coming from Kim André Malde, I prefer his map 10 "Toxic Touch" as well.

On the other hand, I understand the enthusiasm for Misri Halek. I discovered the wad quite late (2012), I had played Epic 2 before. Technically, this map is a real achievement with a lot of nice effects.

 

However, even if it's not entirely true, I tend to consider Alien Vendetta as a very good megawad using stock textures. The Egyptian map is very good, but I always had the feeling it was out of place. More generally, I prefer the map 27 because it is longer and more adventurous, with a good scary atmosphere with Ultimate Doom's E1M5 music.

 

The Toxic Touch map has a much more emotional feeling than Misri Halek. The atmosphere is much more gloomy and I will never get tired of Duke nukem 3D's "Plasma".

 

 

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6 minutes ago, LordBehemoth said:

Terribly inefficient against low tier enemies

 

??

 

How?

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Inefficient in that it uses two shells where one would be enough.

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1 hour ago, GamingMarine said:

The chainsaw is a rather impractical weapon.

I kill cacos and elementals with it... lots of ammo saved .D

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2 minutes ago, Matthias said:

I kill cacos and elementals with it... lots of ammo saved .D

 

I prefer using my fists :D .

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4 hours ago, erzboesewicht said:

Controversial: I like TNT Evilution's "Mount Pain". It's long and grindy but feels like an adventure. Gameplay is varied - think of the radsuit run -, you have some decent fights like the two arachnotron areas and the imp slaughter, and the outdoor area with the Lost Soul mountain in the background is just beautiful.

 

 

I think your general opinion about the first half of Hell Revealed isn't that controversial - there are many, including me, who consider most of these maps mediocre or directly bad (although I like particularly map 14 from pistol start, it feels really satisfying once you manage to troll the monsters back and get a foothold). But the classic maps which many find "inspirational" are in the latter half, particularly 22, 24 and 26 which are in my opinion as a mediocre player really challenging and not just trollish, but 15 and 16 are also pretty memorable - you can give them a try directly if you want. (Cyberdreams is really cool, however, and I don't think that's controversial ...)

Maybe I will give it a try again sometime.

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11 hours ago, whirledtsar said:

Why would a new player using a piece of software alleging to be a port of the original be "behooved" to spend their time researching the specifics of how accurate it is? Why would they ever think to google "jumping in Doom" without foreknowledge? It's completely reasonable and not "lazy" for them to jump into a game without research. 

 

Anybody who has ever broken a map partially or entirely by way of jumping, or got stuck in a place they should not have been able to reach under normal circumstances, might be asking themselves some questions, such as:

-"Am I meant to be able to get to this place in this map?"
-"Am I really supposed not to fight any of the monsters in Doom2 map 07? And why the hell are stairs raising after I kill them? Why would anybody need them?"

-"Why should I go through the ordeal of raising these pillars, when I can instead jump across and skip like half the map?"

-"Why is my favourite YouTube classic Doom channel never using jumps at all when they play these maps that I can't beat?"

-"Why is IcarusLives complaining about this one gap in Maskim Xul that he couldn't cross? Does he not know how to jump?"

-"Why does twitch chat make jokes about just jumping out of a tight situation? I do it all the time. Am I doing something wrong?"

-"Why do these speedrunners never take shortcuts with jumps, when those would save them so many seconds?"
-"Why does this text file that I downloaded with this award-winning GZDoom project say that jumping is not allowed?"
-"Why does John Romero say on his twitter account that jumping in SIGIL is cheating?"

-"Why can I not jump in the steam version of classic Doom that runs in DOSBOX?"

 

Now, I will concede that sometimes people are surprisingly slow on the uptake, never mind the few hard-assed pricks who won't think twice about anything in spite of any and all reasons given, and consequences be damned. And, fair enough, having a screen message that tells players about the problems that might result when they jump around with reckless abandon would be better... But do you seriously think that nobody would get tipped off by any of these questions eventually, and google around for less than 5 minutes after the fact? It seems very unlikely to me, to be honest.

 

Frankly, at this point I'm almost willing to put this to the test, and fire up a thread where people can say how they found out that jumping in classic Doom wasn't possible, how long they played up to that point while being entirely unaware, and how much effort it took for them to get to these results.

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