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rd.

Post Your Opinions About Doom (Whether Controversial or Not)

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26 minutes ago, BoxY said:

I'd rather people just used the 666/667 tags for something interesting instead.


The issue is that the map07 special is so incredibly specific that it's really hard to use for anything interesting. Mancubian Candidate is probably the most creative thing you're going to get out of it. So honestly the most refreshing map07 to me in a regular megawad is one that doesn't use these tags at all.

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Imo the traditional Dead Simple clone is stale because it preserves the abstract nature of the original: "kill all of the mancubi, then walls lower" followed by "kill all of the arachnotrons, then a floor raises" -- or something close enough to those. 

 

Obviously, even the most creative Dead Simple maps will often reduce to that under the hood, but the key is that your actual in-game experience, described in the narrative terms you understand, can be more sophisticated than just "kill a bunch of stuff and then a sector moves."  

 

Maybe when you kill all the mancubi, extra rocket caches become available for use in the flow of the action (which has plenty of other monster species because it's an actual map rather than a simple arena) <-- I like to imagine the Dead Simple-ish Speed of Doom map08 doing that if it were in the map07 slot. Maybe when you kill all the arachnotrons, the level "ends" with a scripted Boom sequence depicting floors crumbling into lava, architecture collapsing, simulated explosions via teleported barrels, the works. Maybe you have a wanted sign early in a map with a mancubus picture and it teleports elusively away from you every time you track it down in various buildings, and when you finally "catch it" you win your reward. Maybe when you kill all the arachnotrons, a pair of parental masterminds show up in a very harsh spot for you, to exact their revenge.  

 

I'm just making those up on the spot, but the point is the technical functioning of tag 666/667 doesn't have to be the focus. There is a lot of mileage to be had focusing on the framing of the objective and the events that happen. (And yes, also making it a map rather than an simple arena.) That is the approach taken by Mancubian Candidate, as well as Total Exposure from Sunlust. 

Edited by rd.

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On 1/11/2021 at 6:08 PM, Roofi said:

Secret exits are useless and boring to find. If I can't find them , I will idclev to map 31 and map 32 anyways.

 

 

Hell To Pay did a great job saying fuck you to secret exit and making maps 31 and 32 mandatory. Too bad it didn't start a trend. 

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31 minutes ago, paturn said:

Hell To Pay did a great job saying fuck you to secret exit and making maps 31 and 32 mandatory. Too bad it didn't start a trend. 


Disagree, maps 31 and 32 are often an opportunity to experiment outside of mapping norms and making them mandatory would stifle that creativity

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On 1/11/2021 at 12:38 PM, Roofi said:

Secret exits are useless and boring to find. If I can't find them , I will idclev to map 31 and map 32 anyways.

 

 

Challenge accepted.

 

That is to say, I largely agree with this, and the map I've nearly finished (and have been working on for over 6 months now) has a "secret exit" which I hope is a lot more interesting to seek out.

It's less a case of finding secrets, and more a case of paying attention enough to open three mysterious gates which do some unexpected things to the map and open the way to the Fortress of Mystery. The stuff isn't hidden, it just requires some exploration.

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I love grindy fights in doom maps ( a lot of hell revealed maps for instance) and I don't understand people complaining about them if they are not unfair. The repetitiveness often satisfies me

 

There were countless times when I prefered to kill a horde of barons with SSG rather than the RL , killing a badly placed cyberdemon with a chaingun...

 

In general , I don't like rushing in doom maps. I love walking , doing cornershots , camping, excessively saving ammo , exploit infight mecanics as much as possible so I have the patience to kill a baron with a shotgun.

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Someone should make a map that forces the player to fight barons with just a pistol. I am sure @Roofi would love it :D

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1 hour ago, ReaperAA said:

Someone should make a map that forces the player to fight barons with just a pistol

And explosive barrels

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My controversial opinion is that slaughtermaps could still work fine even if they didn't have obsessively hyper-detailed sector/linedef art that only serves to decrease performance, not just graphically, but also in terms of gameplay since it'll make sight and sound checks eat up even more cpu time. Textures are a thing, models are a thing. Pretty sure most people who do this sort of detailing build these maps for GZDoom, which is ironic, because then they will complain about it being the port's fault that their maps with over 100k lines and tens of thousands of enemies run slow.

 

I went on a lengthy rant about this a while back, and I can't emphasize this enough: Complaining won't make GZDoom run better, blaming Graf for everything that's wrong with the world won't solve anything, if there were hundreds of ways to optimize the port, wouldn't you think they'd been all done already? There are limits, and we've hit them, hard. At the end of the day, this is still a strict BSP-based engine with world geometry that changes unpredictably. Modern engines don't have these performance problems because they've not only switched to using far more optimal forms of handling map geometry (such as with the use of static meshes for almost everything), but are also highly specialized and and not designed with the enormous modding potential GZDoom has, where practically everything can be extended upon and hooked into. Actors in GZDoom run about 20 times more code than in vanilla each tic, there's a whole lot of new features being handled that simply didn't exist before.

 

Anyway. Slaughtermaps are fun and all, but please, just think for a moment before you reach for your spirograph and flood the map with hi-poly glowing floor patterns.

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I love how Doom 3 environments look, i like the spooky atmosphere, and i'd be totally on board if the new Doom games sided more heavily with these elements of Doom 3, and slower gameplay (wh40k space marine comes to mind, but with better level design... and no QTE's)

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I like Dooms Format with Episodes more than Doom 2s ongoing Format, because you can easily jump into an Epidisode.

I also dislike the brown focused Level Design, so much brown everywhere, the original one had much more Diversity.

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I get tired of the traditional Doom aesthetic very quickly. This is an oversimplification of what constitutes "Doom aesthetic", but whenever I see a WAD that's predominantly brown, green and grey in most places, for example, I'm usually immediately turned away from it. Understandably, a great majority of the community are big fans of every aspect of Doom's level design, and from the mappers' perspective, it's easier to work on themes they have a lot of reference material to study from and popular custom textures that fit those themes than tackling aesthetics that haven't been tried a lot or that are difficult to pull off in the engine itself, but with all due respect, it's difficult not to see most well-known WADs as derivative works of each other as a result of typical Doom techbase/hell designs being explored so many times over.

 

Conversely, I'm admittedly much more easily impressed by WADs that don't quite look like Doom, be them standard vanilla-compatible maps or full-blown GZDoom mods. For example, most of Hellcore 2.0 still blows my mind to this day with its urban settings, Epic 2's Egyptian architecture is incredible, and even Back to Saturn X E1's techbase style has a distinct pallette and artistic approach that I have a very soft spot for. Doom: The Golden Souls is one of my favourite GZDoom mods and its level design could not be more far removed from what Doom usually looks like, opting for Mario-esque bright and colourful styles and painstakingly ensuring that each level can easily be told apart from the others.

 

With all that said, I am very happy to see a growing trend of well-crafted WADs making the rounds that look strikingly different or just plain strange over the past few years! Please keep embracing weirdness and unexplored design trends, dear mappers!!

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Not really Doom related and maybe a little off topic but I miss how the community was back in the years between 2012 - 2015. Back to Saturn X E1 was just released, certain Doom figures were more prominent and active on Twitch. The good 'ol TangoTV was just starting and pumping out great content. Certain members that I learned to adore and respect were active and posting regulary. Doomworld still had its old design for better or worse. 

 

I guess it's not that controversial or Doom related in a sense and I think the community today is just fine and I'm glad to see it stays strong, but there's something about these years of activity that makes me want to go back.

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On 12/30/2020 at 8:02 AM, The Great Communicator said:

Sandy Peterson is a fantastic game/level designer, I would argue he's the best of the iD level designers.

 

For something more controversial, I used to think the Spider Mastermind was a better enemy/boss than the Cyberdemon. I'm not sure I still feel that way, but I did appreciate how Doom 2016 made the spider the final boss.

 

 

YES! I love so much about this map - the midi, the secrets, the barracks room, the teleporting Baron on easier difficulties...

Funny enough, for many years I thought this level had the earliest BFG in the game.

 

Peterson was the best overall designer but maybe not as in the specific niche of making standout maps. One has to give him big props though that he cranked out so many which were up there with what was considered really good for those times. Too many folks tend to forget that, besides some fun & games, you had to perform really well to be able to survive at id... especially if you weren't a core member.

Tom Hall had some real talent so he could have added some good levels  to the arsenal. Both he and Romero should have added more high(er) quality maps to DoomII - maybe later as a mission pack at least.

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Jumping and crouching both feel and control like complete dogshit, and honestly never should've been made a thing to begin with. Why the hell do people insist on mapping with these features?

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3 minutes ago, JustCallMeKaito said:

Jumping and crouching both feel and control like complete dogshit, and honestly never should've been made a thing to begin with. Why the hell do people insist on mapping with these features?

Agree, if i would use jumping and crouching in a map, it would be only for secrets, if you want to make a Doom map with jumping and crouching, make a DOOM 2016 or DOOM Eternal map

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I don't like GZDoom. Or Graf Zahl. But mostly because people need to stop recommending GZDoom to new players. It breaks a lot of nuance with the original game as well as old-school mods. Not to mention it creates unrealistic expectations of other Doom content that aren't designed for GZDoom (i.e. Gman's review of Sigil, also the Doom Unity port).

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6 hours ago, _bruce_ said:

Peterson was the best overall designer but maybe not as in the specific niche of making standout maps. One has to give him big props though that he cranked out so many which were up there with what was considered really good for those times.

 

Personally, I think one of the things that gives Sandy the edge over other mappers like Romero and McGee is the quantity of maps he made. About half of Doom 2's levels are credited to him, and although some of them are subpar, I remain impressed that he was able to deliver so much content within a deadline. His levels don't have the detailing and polish of others, but they remain fun and memorable nonetheless.

Just ask CD Project Red how difficult it can be to release a completed game while trying to meet deadlines.

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20 hours ago, JustCallMeKaito said:

Jumping and crouching both feel and control like complete dogshit, and honestly never should've been made a thing to begin with. Why the hell do people insist on mapping with these features?

Crouching I can take or leave. Jumping is fine if not overdone. I'm working on a map with a very light jumping puzzle that can be mostly bypassed, so really there's only one mandatory jump, and the distance isn't far. 

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OTEX is perfectly suited to modern "premium" quality custom content that uses semi-realistic detailing, medium-sized maps, slaughterventure gameplay, and a pastel shaded palette. It's much less appropriate, or rather reveals its weaknesses, in completely abstract, monolithic slaughtermaps: the textures tend to tile badly on huge surfaces, especially without detailed lighting, the colours are oversaturated compared to base Doom textures, have inconsistent levels of brightness & contrast, & are generally blurrier or 'cell shaded' looking. For these reasons, I don't think it should be combined with other resources, in fact its stylistic differences from Doom, combined with many textures that seek to replace the default assets altogether (e.g. liquids), suggest it was intended to be used exclusively. It's a set that needs to be used carefully by experienced mappers with a clear idea what they want, rather than as a one-stop-shop similar to CC4-tex.

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On 1/14/2021 at 2:12 PM, Uni said:

Not really Doom related and maybe a little off topic but I miss how the community was back in the years between 2012 - 2015. Back to Saturn X E1 was just released, certain Doom figures were more prominent and active on Twitch. The good 'ol TangoTV was just starting and pumping out great content. Certain members that I learned to adore and respect were active and posting regulary. Doomworld still had its old design for better or worse. 

 

I guess it's not that controversial or Doom related in a sense and I think the community today is just fine and I'm glad to see it stays strong, but there's something about these years of activity that makes me want to go back.

Aw man, you're making me misty eyed here. I'm getting serious nostalgia pangs for watching @Alfonzo & @Tarnsman ripping on levels in a Twitch stream

 

"Well this certainly... exists"

"Can we just not"

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Invisibility sphere is a garbo power-up. If anything it actually makes the game harder for me because it messes up the flow of anticipating/dodging incoming attacks when the enemy is just throwing stuff around randomly. I suspect its main purpose was for use in deathmatches, but I never do multiplayer.

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13 minutes ago, Sigh Man Vanz said:

Invisibility sphere is a garbo power-up. If anything it actually makes the game harder for me because it messes up the flow of anticipating/dodging incoming attacks when the enemy is just throwing stuff around randomly. I suspect its main purpose was for use in deathmatches, but I never do multiplayer.

This is a widely accepted opinion. 

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2 hours ago, Sigh Man Vanz said:

Invisibility sphere is a garbo power-up. If anything it actually makes the game harder for me because it messes up the flow of anticipating/dodging incoming attacks when the enemy is just throwing stuff around randomly. I suspect its main purpose was for use in deathmatches, but I never do multiplayer.

 

Invisibility powerup is not really garbage, but rather a double-edged sword. It makes avoiding hitscan attacks easier, but makes projectile attacks harder to dodge as their direction becomes unpredictable.

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There's something just really unsatisfying about fighting cacos most of the time for me. It might be doom 1 memories but they always feel spongier than they actually are.

That and the fact that you can't run under them

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The story of Doom, if i cared about it, would put me off Doom.  Generally speaking i don't care about stories, but what the substance/meaning they carry, and in case of Doom can say i dislike the substance that is engendered by theme of the story.

 

i like the aesthetics, though.  And i do appreciate levels that follow a thematic progression.

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On 1/14/2021 at 6:21 PM, JustCallMeKaito said:

Jumping and crouching both feel and control like complete dogshit, and honestly never should've been made a thing to begin with. Why the hell do people insist on mapping with these features?

 

Here's a real unpopular opinion, which I'm probably going to get a lot of hate for but here it goes: I hate pineapple on pizza, raisin cookies and Justing Bieber.

 

Seriously though, my actual unpopular opinion is that we need more jumping and crouching and not less. Even in fancy zdoom-based mods it's not utilized much. It's better than utilizing it badly, and those mechanics aren't well suited for typical platforming challenges, but there's still plenty of what seems like untapped potential to me. I'd love to watch a speedrun that involves vaulting over tall fences with the 32 unit jump + 24 unit climb, crouching underneath closing gates, and crouching in midair to jump in and out of small windows, all in a map optimized with that stuff in mind.

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