Multiplayer Project Feedback

[Decay]

Hello again, here comes another unnecessarily long post, this time about multiplayer project feedback.

Over all the forums I've been at, whether it's zdaemon, odamex, or zandronum, there is very little useful or worthwhile feedback given to the many projects posted around. Most people seem to consider feedback a "looks great, keep going!" or "good luck with the project, looks promising" or something similar to this line of thought. While a hype post is good and undoubtedly makes the author feel good, there is literally nothing useful to the author about it. Please note though I am definitely not saying don't do these things, but for a project to be great, detailed and technical feedback is required.

I say this because I often notice many people posting up multiplayer projects requesting for feedback but more often than not that author provides none to other players. Yes, making good feedback takes time, it also involves downloading the wad not only to look at but to play. Even without playing it you can make basic feedback, whether it is bugs, obvious imbalances, or flawed ideas.

Learning how to give proper feedback believe it or not helps YOU grow as a mapper. It's well worth your time to figure out how to articulate why a map is bad so you don't make the same mistakes in your own mapping. Realize that a chaingun spawn 128 units away from a ssg spawn is a bad idea? Good, don't do it yourself. See a neat feature in a map but don't like it's implementation? Offer suggestions which will in turn give yourself ideas on how to do something similar in one of your own maps. Working with others immediately in playtesting for feedback also helps. I find myself constantly indebted to MXU and A3 members giving me feedback on the fly, and without a doubt my mapping has improved not only because of their feedback but also because I learned how to give feedback myself.

Listening to feedback is equally important. People who give feedback are not trying to put the author down (usually). Making good multiplayer maps is difficult for most, there are only a few who seem to be able to just have the knack for making it right in the first couple revisions, and even less on the first go around. It's about helping each other make maps that we actually WANT to play and replay instead of playing once, finding out there are some grave imbalances and discovering it's not worth playing over and over. When you get feedback, realize someone actually took the time to investigate the maps; don't dismiss them out of hand. Multiplayer projects suffer enough as opposed to the many projects getting tons of feedback up in the SP/Coop section.

So before you ask someone for feedback on your project, ask yourself whether or not you're ready to provide good feedback for someone else. It is very easy not to provide feedback, so on the same hand why is your project so much better than mine that I should spend my time giving you detailed feedback?

Final reviews. As a multiplayer mapper for years now there is nothing I like more than final reviews, and I'm 100% sure I'm not alone. Sometimes those reviews are hard to swallow, other times they show me that my time invested in a project was really worthwhile and gave many people lots of fun times. So write some appreciative notes or some final reviews... ESPECIALLY if you're posting projects for review yourself.

If you want to see this multiplayer forum thrive with projects, everyone needs to chip in and give good feedback. It's a lot more important than you think in more ways than one, and hey who knows maybe we can attract more people to work on mp projects. The more the better!

[Doomkid]

More good advice from Decay here to go along with this thread. Take it from someone who knows, this is advice worth following.

[Tiger]

After reading this, I'll look into my options upon releasing a beta build early. Would people mind if the beta build gets updated and is bloated beyond believe? Originally, I only wanted to do just 'one' developmental build and the next build is the final.

Project in mentioned[1]

[Decay]

Tiger said:

After reading this, I'll look into my options upon releasing a beta build early. Would people mind if the beta build gets updated and is bloated beyond believe? Originally, I only wanted to do just 'one' developmental build and the next build is the final.

Project in mentioned[1]

You only intended 2 builds? That is foolhardy at best. My recommendation for the time being would be to separate the maps from the resources for the time being, that way we are not downloading the textures repeatedly, just the maps. When the project is nearing final release, then you can put them together. Downloading the maps a few times is no big deal.

[Ralphis]

Some of the most renowned multiplayer wads and maps of all time had no or very little public testing. In my opinion, the need for constant refinement has resulted in a lot of sterile map sets over the past decade.

With that said, I agree that feedback is important. The best feedback comes immediately after a game on a map, often after multiple plays. Sometimes this is best collected through ways outside of forums, either in-game or maybe on IRC, so that people don't sit down and over-analyze what they just played in a dissertation sized post. I believe that the unseen quirks that can make a map more special as gameplay develops over time are sometimes lost through streamlining.

[Doomkid]

Ralphis definitely makes a good point: I've too often seen good mapsets remain in some sort of beta form forever due to extreme over analyzation. Playtesting and refining your map certainly can improve it, but its also important to know when enough is enough and it's time to just release the damn thing. Like with any craft, there's a balance to be struck.

[Decay]

Ralphis said:

Some of the most renowned multiplayer wads and maps of all time had no or very little public testing. In my opinion, the need for constant refinement has resulted in a lot of sterile map sets over the past decade.

With that said, I agree that feedback is important. The best feedback comes immediately after a game on a map, often after multiple plays. Sometimes this is best collected through ways outside of forums, either in-game or maybe on IRC, so that people don't sit down and over-analyze what they just played in a dissertation sized post. I believe that the unseen quirks that can make a map more special as gameplay develops over time are sometimes lost through streamlining.

While I don't deny the validity of this statement, I'd like to point out it's exceedingly rare and more of an exception to the rule than the standard. It's also important to differentiate between public testing, which tends to be nearly valueless, private testing with a competent team which is far more valuable, and no testing at all. I have seen many maps that certainly had potential to be much better had they been fine tuned, and I'm sure you have too.

As far as making sterile maps and the need for constant refinement causing ultimately lackluster maps (and incomplete to boot), we need not look further than corectf2. Over analyzing can certainly be a problem! Sometimes people need to know when not to fix what isn't broken, or let go of a map when it doesn't work instead of trying to force it to work.

[Ru5tK1ng]

Testing is very important because you get the viewpoint of other people and you become aware of things you may not have noticed on your own. Just as people notice different things when they watch a movie scene or look at a painting, people see different issues with a map when testing it. Yes there is a risk of over analyzing something to the point it never finishes and that's why you have to be able to understand when enough is enough, when something works and when something isn't going to work no matter how many times you try to fix it. If something is shit after many iterations of rework, just toss it away and move onto something else. Don't waste your time.

Another thing to keep in mind when seeking out people to take a look at your maps, or playtest them, is to avoid GROUP THINK. It's nice to have 5 people go over your duel maps, but if each of them say the same thing or don't really bring anything unique to the table, you'll fall victim to the group think curse. Sure, with many different types of people giving feed back, you might get overflowed at times with info and complaints (and MUCH crying when testing CTF maps). However, that's when you, as the project leader, decide what will be addressed and what will not. Just be appreciative of others' help whether you agree with it initially or not.

Everything is a balancing act. Too much or too little can hurt you.

[MetalGuy213]

dang..... thats a good thing for Multiplayer things for newbies and a good thing to increase my things for my projects.

maybe could be another thing to still inprove something on my things on Doom.....

Good feedback Decay.

[Tiger]

MetalGuy213 said:

dang..... thats a good thing for Multiplayer things for newbies and a good thing to increase my things for my projects.

maybe could be another thing to still inprove something on my things on Doom.....

Good feedback Decay.

What do you think we have been trying todo in Zandronum? We gave you suggestions, what you should consider doing, what should change, and etc etc. However, YOU decided to take all of the criticism as an insult and refused to listen. At first I dismissed it as a language barrier, but as time goes on - that didn't seem to be the issue.

This image that you are NOW utilizing, it took an arm and a leg to get you to even remotely consider it as you INSISTED into using this.

Remember when you said this?

MetalGuy213:
I really i don't want help because could be it a mappack that i'm doing to do especially it's just like a mappack that i don't need help.. so no.

I understand and know well enough that I don't have a perfect history here, but what you're saying in your post is very hypocritical. But fear not, I still will not bother sharing advice nor suggestions with your projects, or in your words "Adding flame and hate".

[...]

Tiger said:

What do you think we have been trying todo in Zandronum? We gave you suggestions, what you should consider doing, what should change, and etc etc. However, YOU decided to take all of the criticism as an insult and refused to listen. At first I dismissed it as a language barrier, but as time goes on - that didn't seem to be the issue.

Metalguy is like 14. Why do you continue wasting your time arguing with him?

[Tiger]

Catastrophe said:

Metalguy is like 14. Why do you continue wasting your time arguing with him?

You're right; I just get frustrated every time I see his posts, unsure why to be honest.

[MetalGuy213]

Tiger said:

What do you think we have been trying todo in Zandronum? We gave you suggestions, what you should consider doing, what should change, and etc etc. However, YOU decided to take all of the criticism as an insult and refused to listen. At first I dismissed it as a language barrier, but as time goes on - that didn't seem to be the issue.

This image that you are NOW utilizing, it took an arm and a leg to get you to even remotely consider it as you INSISTED into using this.

Remember when you said this?
I understand and know well enough that I don't have a perfect history here, but what you're saying in your post is very hypocritical. But fear not, I still will not bother sharing advice nor suggestions with your projects, or in your words "Adding flame and hate".

Alright alright...... I surrender..... i'm now gonna hear all these Zandro Questions and better things... i'm gonna stop being a retard...... :/

I'm kinda sorry but... i have a Spanish-English Grammar in my hands that costs me to read us.....

[Decay]

MetalGuy213 said:

Alright alright...... I surrender..... i'm gonna stop being a retard...... :/

You can start by stop posting. Please and thank you.

[everennui]

That sounds like a lot of fun. I've never collaborated with anyone before, so I'll follow.