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Voros

Is Doom 2016 really inspired from Brutal Doom?

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llment, while keeping the balance and fun of Doom?

The Glory Kill system is pretty much Brutal Doom's Rip and Tear mode, just swifter, more realistic, and a bigger range of Glory Kills.

The imp getting its head stomped is like the one from from Brutal Doom's, where Doomguy tosses the imp on the floor and stomps its head.

The hell soldier getting its head stomped by its own boot, is like the zombie man getting its head beat up with its own rifle.

The imp getting its heart/gut ripped out is like when the zombie man got its gut pulled out in Brutal Doom.

And many more. Has id taken BD for Doom 2016?

                                   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDwKvk_ltZM

A small video of IGN who thought Brutal Doom had inspired Doom 2016 too.

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partially, yes

but brutal doom got inspired by the doom comic so the new doom got inspired by it's own roots - and those finishers aren't new in games - brutal doom didn't invent anything new

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The New Doom isn't as over-the-top gory as Brutal Doom, and execution moves have been around in various other games for quite a while now (Mortal Kombat anyone?).

But sure, I've no doubt that the Id team have been looking at Brutal Doom, and it would only be natural that they would get a few ideas from it, but I doubt it's the only inspiration for the finishers.
Brutal Doom's finishers don't even work all that well with the gameplay; too lengthy, bringing the pace to a screeching halt, has the nasty habit of getting the player surrounded and mauled to death by monsters once the animation is done.
Plenty other games had already done execution moves a lot better than this, so it is equally likely that Id simply took inspiration from these other games.

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The idea of over-the-top cinematically highlighted gory executions isn't something that Sgt Mark IV can claim as an invention however bad he might want to do so. Those were pioneered in the mid-90's (in video games anyway) by the fighters Mortal Kombat and Eternal Champions. Doom itself was merely riding on the coattails in terms of having gratuitous violence, as it came out later than MK. If you recall, this string of games almost brought down the ban hammer on the industry (and don't forget Hillary was at the forefront of it - sorry, gotta throw in a political jab). The idea of finally marrying the two - DOOM and fatalities - was definitely first done in Brutal Doom, and probably inspired the devs to try it in the new DOOM based on their own statements, but trace the ideas back to their real origins and put the bulk of the credit there, I say.

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Actually the idea of stunning heavily injured FPS enemies and then killing them in an especially violent and humiliating manner to regain health was taken from another well known game:

Spoiler

Duke Nukem Forever

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I don't know, but Doom is not Brutal Doom, it worries me to think that people think that Brutal Doom is what Doom is or should be about.

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Xerge said:

I don't know, but Doom is not Brutal Doom, it worries me to think that people think that Brutal Doom is what Doom is or should be about.

Yeah I agree, they lost perception of what Doom really was, going beyond your simple kill-them-all in the most ridiculous ways possible of Brutal Doom.

At least Doom 2016 gives us a reason to perform glory kills beyond the "Oh look at that!" reason.

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Don't forget Soldier of Fortune, that game had dismemberments depending on how powerful your gun was and on which part of the body you hit, another thing which is present in Brutal Doom.
And Kingpin:Life of Crime for it's weapon mods, a thing present in BD's sister mod Project Brutality.

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I think it's inspired by Brutal Doom in that BD reminded many DOOM players what the game was really about. I think over the last 20+ years of playing, DOOM became pretty passe and the energy of it had diminished. I remember in late 2012, a BD trailer was released and one of the comments was "this is the only mod that makes doom more like doom." And the spirit of what he said is right.

I think that revitalization is what inspired id, more than 1-to-1 ripping off glory kills or whatever.

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It's a bold claim to say glory kills stray from Doom when Doom was famous for bringing a new level of gore. I bet if You whispered the concept to John Romero's ear back in the day he would of loved the idea and maybe even of tried to implement it. Unlikely though, due to engine / room limitations.

Still - Glory kills are optional. You can hastily run and gun down the demons all you like, even taser yourself for mouse looking if that's your thing. Regardless, I'm fairly sure there is some inspiration from Brutal Doom, especially how it grabbed the attention of the public beyond the Doom Fans, that means something to businesses.

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Chezza said:

I bet if You whispered the concept to John Romero's ear back in the day he would of loved the idea and maybe even of tried to implement it.


Maybe, but the games we play aren't lost ideas that didn't happen, the identity and personality of a game is constructed based on what you play and on what it is in game, not based on what someone thought would have been a good idea but isn't in there, that's why Doom and Brutal Doom are different experiences.

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Chezza said:

It's a bold claim to say glory kills stray from Doom when Doom was famous for bringing a new level of gore.


That is my point. They make doom more like doom.

edit: here comes some sacrilege. It's like Bowie's Man Who Sold The World. The original is great for what it is, but Midge's cover, in my opinion, is such a better expression of what the song could be.

I'm not necessarily saying BD > DOOM. But BD managed to elevate the spirit of the original to new heights, and I believe that revelation/reminder is what caused D4 to change direction from the CoD-like project it used to be.

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Everything you listed is just one thing from brutal doom: The finisher moves. And it's not new in games...
Though they probably were partially influenced by BD, and I see no problem in it.

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It might had influenced in the inclusion of the glory kills, but as far as the other things such as the over the top level of violence, it was always in Doom since day one (Also there's the doom comic)

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I do recall PA1NK1LL3R mentioning how he actually (some fucking how don't ask) got to meet an intern from ID and he outright said that they acknowledge the majority of high profile Doom mods out there and even mentioned project brutality and how p much everyone at ID gets a kick out of it and how fun it is


I had tolly forgot about that huh

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What Brutal Doom does is take an aspect of Doom the sadistic part of the character and focus on that to the point where it gets out of character and it worries me that I'd have to explain why, although some of the executions do fit. What worries me is also that ID makes the same mistake and from what I can tell they will not and I hope I am right.

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I Remember a post on their tweeter page saying "Have you played Brutal Doom ?", after that and after i saw the first gameplay released months after releasing the 10 seconds ssg teaser, i was sure it was inspired by either Brutal Doom or project Brutality, while the gameplay doesn't mostly rely on Brutalizing your enemies, since you need to get too close to them, and their health needs to be at least below 40, means in most times you cannot perform it (unless you're playing solo in easy difficulty) , it's still not heavily influenced with it .

+ You can glory kill them in several ways depending on which body part are you aiming at , with a Melee attack Key (that you can bind from options) .

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Linguica said:

Actually the idea of stunning heavily injured FPS enemies and then killing them in an especially violent and humiliating manner to regain health was taken from another well known game:

Spoiler

Duke Nukem Forever


Quoted for the truth.

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DMPhobos said:

It might had influenced in the inclusion of the glory kills, but as far as the other things such as the over the top level of violence, it was always in Doom since day one (Also there's the doom comic)

This guy gets it. It's almost as if some people think Doom is completely dissimilar to Brutal Doom which is just ridiculous.

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Literally EVERYTHING in Brutal Doom is taken from other games. Big surprise that there's some overlapping, huh?

BioShock Infinite had completely unnecessary, psychotic and ridiculously violent executions... yet nobody compared it to BD. Do you know why? Because it's not about whether id took inspiration from BD or not. It's about people wanting to glorify their favourite mod even more.

Besides, we all know for sure that DOOM has always been a very tame game, right? Certainly you never rip demons apart with your bare hands.

http://i.imgur.com/bfnHTPM.png?1

The way that enemies die is also very subtle. It's not like you blow off their limbs and other parts of their bodies, leaving them in pools of blood and viscera.

http://i.imgur.com/uvenLxV.png?1

After all, DOOM is most certainly not an extremely violent game that pionieered blood and gore in the industry. Where did that crazy idea come from?

http://i.imgur.com/ULFj23D.png?1

Yeah, all those pools of blood and chunks of meat and guts spilling out of mutilated bodies and ripped ribcages and eyes popping out... must be remembering something wrong.

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Touchdown, those are all clearly screenshots of Brutal Doom!

I'm pretty sure the original Doom was a text based game or something.

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Brutal Doom is after all a mod, Whether it was inspired by other stuff or not, Insulting it like that would break SergeantMark's heart :v (They don't love my hard work T_T) .

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Touchdown said:

Because it's not about whether id took inspiration from BD or not. It's about people wanting to glorify their favourite mod even more.


And now we come to the root of the problem.

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There is also an irrational and bias hate on Brutal Doom within this community. What you gonna do? Brutal Doom is love, Brutal Doom is life.

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Chezza said:

There is also an irrational and bias hate on Brutal Doom within this community.


Don't get defensive when it's uncalled for. Read the messages in this thread - nobody's hating on BD. Some of us simply disagree with the amount of credit that it gets.

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Mogul said:

I'm not necessarily saying BD > DOOM. But BD managed to elevate the spirit of the original to new heights, and I believe that revelation/reminder is what caused D4 to change direction from the CoD-like project it used to be.

Eh, I think this is a romantic mindset of BD fans that doesn't correspond with the business thinking of corporations like Beth/Zenimax. You know what I think caused the change of direction? The realization that they were making a directionless piece of crap that was going to flop hard. Remember the astonishingly negative reactions to the leaked Call of Doom pics? They had to anticipate that sort of reaction, that's why they never showed a thing and shitcanned the project silently. I'm pretty sure everyone involved knew very well that it was going to be a soulless, bland money-grinding product, but the tipping point probably came when they realized it wasn't even going to make them money, on top of poisoning the franchise for good.

At that point the higher-ups probably had a long debate whether it's even worth making a Doom 4 and only then did they restart with a new approach. In cynical terms, the game so far looks like a big pile of pandering and fanservice. Like if they gave up on coming up with plans and concepts, made a checklist of good things the franchise is famous for and another checklist of popular features in contemporary games, then started throwing them into the pot. Will it be a cake or a steak? Who knows, but it will be delicious! You know what else is a big pile of pandering and fanservice?

Spoiler

Expendables.

Spoiler

But also Brutal Doom.

So I think it's completely unreasonable to think that one day some id guy came into the office all wide-eyed and started telling his colleagues about this awesome radical Doom mod he found on the Interweb and then they all agreed that this is how the new game should be. Let's rip that Brazilian guy off and run away with the money he should be getting, mwahaha. The leaked TDM footage looked a lot like Halo. The mindless, story-in-porn approach has actually been getting some traction by indie shooters in recent years. There will be a "Shoot at it until it dies" achievement, does that mean Doom 4 was inspired by Linguica? Brutal takedowns are even in games where they shouldn't really be, so if they're such a logical extension to Doom's original vision as many people claim, I think it makes sense id came to similar conclusions as the many authors and contributors of Brutal Doom.

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