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everennui

Could use a playtest and some advice.

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https://www.mediafire.com/?n43bwb4lnytyqth

March 3 2016 (Update added more monsters and adjusted the difficulties. Online play will have more enemies. UV is now for Solo play. Still beta as it has not been playtested enough.

This should be about the end of the map. I gotta add some more monsters... maybe a few more tricks and traps and this baby will be up and ready for some serious two player coop. My brother and his friend played today both never having played it before and it was fun to watch them squabble about ammo and pass secrets. By the end they figured they best keep an eye out for ammo clips. Well... as fun as that was to watch, it wasn't my best moment. I fucked up the tag, so the red key was a d1 instead of s1, so unlike my flesh and blood, you get a chance to pull the level switch.

Please play on UV for maximum challenge and tell me how you feel about the ammo distribution. ...primarily up until the yellow key. After yellow door needs more monsters... maybe ammo?

Any criticism is cherished.

Edit: Please tell me how long it took too.

Edit 2: The soulsphere and the box of ammo when you start is to compensate for not having a second player in coop, so if you are doing two player, don't take those items.

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Maybe I'm oblivious but at some point I only had red and blue doors to open but never found a key. During my key search I backtracked and managed to get stuck in the second room because the first switchdoor was closed and only got more closed when I hit the switch, and one of the nonswitchdoors attached to the starting room let me back into the starting room but not back out.

Played on UV but it wasn't losing my health that defeated me. ;(

I'll echo the previous feedback that found the switchdoors tedious. I noticed that some of the switch textures were missing even though they still functioned like switches, so perhaps you were halfway into redesigning based on that feedback when you published this? ;)

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Benjogami said:

Maybe I'm oblivious but at some point I only had red and blue doors to open but never found a key. During my key search I backtracked and managed to get stuck in the second room because the first switchdoor was closed and only got more closed when I hit the switch, and one of the nonswitchdoors attached to the starting room let me back into the starting room but not back out.

Played on UV but it wasn't losing my health that defeated me. ;(

I'll echo the previous feedback that found the switchdoors tedious. I noticed that some of the switch textures were missing even though they still functioned like switches, so perhaps you were halfway into redesigning based on that feedback when you published this? ;)



Hmmmmmz. Maybe I accidently put the keys as multiplayer only or something. I'll have a look after a bit.

Edit: Yeah. The keys are all there and I have absolutely no problem in Zandronum or gzdoom with the doors in any room. There are a few textures that need to be fixed, my count was two door switch textures, a door flat texture and a mid textures for the another before the door to red key.

can you please screenshot what door you're talking about?

Edit 2: The first two keys can only be accessed by using a computer terminal to unlock doors/sectors.

Edit 3: as far as doors go. I did switch a lot of them from 63 (open wait close) to 103 (door stay open). I did this as part of design. I found that they were a little tedious after I added more monsters. Now... lost souls should push you away and allow for other monsters to get out the doors.

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That door. If you hit either switch for it, it'll close after a wait and then won't open again.

I did actually find the blue key after spamming Use on that suspicious-looking console thing, but haven't resumed my playthrough past that point due to obligations. :D

So yeah, I would suggest making the console buttons more obviously buttons somehow. They're neat but nonstandard, so will maybe confuse people. Or just me.

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In the first place you shouldn't make a new thread every time you want testing on the same map.

I see you still haven't taken the time to investigate compatibility and what it means. I took the liberty of altering the wad so it would work in PrBoom+. It was as simple as replacing the Texture and Pname lumps then adding the custom textures to them.

I played until reaching the canyon outside then encountered a small hole that I assume requires crouching to move through. Crouching is a Zdoom only feature. My recommendation is to make the hole big enough to walk through and stop using Zdoom for testing as this is the only aspect that would require Zdoom or similar port. Also please specify what builder and map format you are using if you want more explanation.

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U.O.D. said:

In the first place you shouldn't make a new thread every time you want testing on the same map.

I see you still haven't taken the time to investigate compatibility and what it means. I took the liberty of altering the wad so it would work in PrBoom+. It was as simple as replacing the Texture and Pname lumps then adding the custom textures to them.

I played until reaching the canyon outside then encountered a small hole that I assume requires crouching to move through. Crouching is a Zdoom only feature. My recommendation is to make the hole big enough to walk through and stop using Zdoom for testing as this is the only aspect that would require Zdoom or similar port. Also please specify what builder and map format you are using if you want more explanation.


I have looked at compatibility, but as I said, I'm not keen on Slade and I don't know how to do the texture things. As I stated in the begining of the thread, it is zdoom, gzdoom and zandronum compatible. I'm not able to, "simply" do the complex things you're talking about. (fixing my fuckups) I want the player to crouch. If that alienates an entire group of people who want to play, I'm sorry, but I really like the jump, look and crouch features and I want to build around that.

This is all a learning process, so I'm not to worried about my first map. Not at the moment. Maybe it can be salvaged... In the future - when I'm done with this map - I will investigate Boom and I will decide whether or not I would like to build within that program's parameters.

I've been building/playing doom for about a week. I have been a member of this forum for about 30 minutes less than that. Honestly, I am sorry if I'm being annoying.

Serious Question: Are most people playing without jump, crouch and freemouse?

Regarding the new post for same map... sorry. I probably should have read the community guidelines. In the future I will update this thread.

What builder am I using? I'm using GZDoomBuilder with it's latest updates.

I'm not sure what you mean by, "map format." The map is built off of MAP01 from the doom2 IWAD. (IWAD or just WAD?)

I truly do have a desire to become more knowledgeable in regards to Doom, wadding, modding etc.

It is slightly aggravating (not your fault) to keep hearing about the compatibility issue. Only because it does frustrate me to know that I messed it up. Can you attempt to condescend to my noobishness?

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Benjogami said:

That door. If you hit either switch for it, it'll close after a wait and then won't open again.

I did actually find the blue key after spamming Use on that suspicious-looking console thing, but haven't resumed my playthrough past that point due to obligations. :D

So yeah, I would suggest making the console buttons more obviously buttons somehow. They're neat but nonstandard, so will maybe confuse people. Or just me.


That door should work, but only on the other side of the wall. ...now that I think about it, if one was to not grab the blue key before going in it, they would be trapped. Incidentally, I did change that to s1 blue stay in my master.

Any suggestions on the computer terminal to make it more obvious?

I have been listening to all the suggestions people make too. I did put red/yellow/blue door frames around locked rooms. A lot more of the doors are s1 stay opens. I fixed all of the switch textures.

Shoot, now I see why I should keep it as one thread. I'll have to look back at who talked about the doors being tedious. I see that now. Some doors, just a few I feel are better if they do close, but once all the doors are open, navigation is really easy around the whole map.

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To answer your serious question: I never look up/down, jump, or crouch in Doom. In fact, this is the first time I've ever used GZDoom. I was curious to see your level, and at some point I'll probably have to use ZDoom for some other worthy project anyhow. I'd probably still be using Chocolate Doom if I hadn't needed limit removal and subsequently gotten accustomed to PrBoom+.

That's all just one guy's perspective, but I gotta believe there are lots of other curmudgeons out there.

That said, if you're okay with limiting your audience and really like those features, that's cool. Especially since you're just starting out.

Would've been nice to know that I'd need to crouch upfront though. ;)

For the computer terminal, I would suggest taking out the important button (the one that raises the stairs to the blue key) and putting it as the usual sort of switch on a wall in the room where the stairs raise. The super shotty and green armor are nice rewards for non-obvious buttons, though, so that's cool.

Making the terminal the brightest thing in the room might help. Although that's a typical decorative convention too.

I got around to playing up until The Crouch, and found the ammo balance good. I was forced to change weapons a few times, but wasn't ever really desperate. I found some rockets but didn't find a rocket launcher.

For health balance, the soulsphere by the yellow key was perhaps too generous (for as far as I played, at least).

There was a texture issue in the teleport ambush hall:

Spoiler

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everennui said:

I want the player to crouch. If that alienates an entire group of people who want to play, I'm sorry, but I really like the jump, look and crouch features and I want to build around that.


If that's the case then plainly say "This map is built for Zdoom". But like you said this alienates part of your audience. So you have to decide if it's worth excluding certain people for the features you want. Personally I don't think it's worth it to be Zdoom exclusive just for one crouching section. But that's not my call.

Finish the map and make it clearable and I can give it better breakdown.

EDIT:

About that door. It is behaving incorrectly because it is made up of a bunch of extra sectors.

http://imgur.com/r4DkILO

Doors should normally be one solid sector so they don't act weird. Like this:

http://imgur.com/rBE2Q2X

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U.O.D. said:

Personally I don't think it's worth it to be Zdoom exclusive just for one crouching section. But that's not my call.


Oh yeah that reminds me: if you really do like those features enough to require ZDoom, at least try to make full use of them. If there's just one spot you need to crouch, that's lame. Squeeze in as much platforming and jump/crouch puzzles that can. ;)

It reminds me of Rage, how in the tutorial it teaches you how to jump by making you do it to progress, and then there's literally no use for jumping for the entire rest of the game (or at least the sizable chunk of the game that I yawned my way through). In fact, you can't even jump over things that look like the thing you jumped over in the tutorial because there are invisible walls everywhere.

Shit game.

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U.O.D. said:

If that's the case then plainly say "This map is built for Zdoom". But like you said this alienates part of your audience. So you have to decide if it's worth excluding certain people for the features you want. Personally I don't think it's worth it to be Zdoom exclusive just for one crouching section. But that's not my call.

Finish the map and make it clearable and I can give it better breakdown.

EDIT:

About that door. It is behaving incorrectly because it is made up of a bunch of extra sectors.

http://imgur.com/r4DkILO

Doors should normally be one solid sector so they don't act weird. Like this:

http://imgur.com/rBE2Q2X


Thank you for point out that door. I checked - I thought every door - a thousand times and didn't catch that one. It's now fixed.

There's one section up by the red key if you keep going there's this little cave and behind the wall is some health potions and green armor. There's another secret that is less obvious that I think would be best if it was crouch... just because if you don't have to crouch it'd be too obvious.

I did make it so that you don't have to crouch for everything in the map except that one part. I have my reservations. I'm not sure. I do understand your point. I would like to reach the max audience I could. You've got me debating myself now.

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Using ZDoom, UV.

Two Shotguns, one in each of the first two rooms, and another half-way down the first hall? A bit much. Why guns instead of Shells?

Linedef tag 29 - Door SR Open/Close. The door is multiple adjoining sectors. Once it closed, it never opened again. And made the light sectors look weird. Doors should never be multiple sectors.

Lindef tag 30(s) - Tagged to a door sector. No action on the outside linedefs. I assume they're supposed to be WR OpenFastWait/Close. I got stuck outside.

Linedef tag 31 - Door SR Open/Close. The door is multiple overlapping sectors. No idea why it works correctly. But when it's up, you can see the open sector on the ceiling of the door sector on the right side.

Linedef tag 36 - Door is multiple sectors again, but in this case it gives a cool effect. The door is blocked open by the crate. When you hit the S1 Open switch, it pushes the door down into the top of the crate to a depth of 4 pixels. That's a nice effect.

Linedef tags 6 and 7- Missing switch textures.

Sector tags 6 and 7 - Corrupted ceiling textures on door sectors. Actually, all the sectors using AVP2F240 as a ceiling are bad. Actually2, all the AVP flats you added to the wad are bad. They need to be converted to Doom (Flats), not Doom (Graphics).

Texture on the monster closet wall by linedef tag 44 badly mis-aligned.

"Smoke Break" is one unit highter than rest of the console and all of it has missing textures. Intentional?

Sector tag 53 - missing texture on wall of monster closet. HOM.

Sector tag 48 - teleport location; overlaps the thin lighting sectors in the hallway. A lot of the lighting sectors around linedef tag 17 in that area of the hallway are screwed up.

Sector tag 19 - missing DOORTRAK texture.

Ran across three separate, very thin graphic glitches in the sky along the curved north wall of the outdoor area. One is visible all the time.

Do you really have to crouch to get into the Red Key area? That certainly came out of nowhere. I thought the cave opening sector height was wrong.

Two Rocket Launchers that close to each other?

I grabbed the Red Key and ran back inside before the Cyber could see me. I don't think that's what you intended.

There's a very thin dark lighting sector in the blood room which looks out of place.

A Nazi? Really? And only one? Is he the Boss? He was dead before I got to the platform.

Please mark the Exit Switch. You used the lit green switch everywhere else and now you have a silver switch on a grey wall. I ran past it four times before I noticed it.

Technical issues aside, overall it's not a bad tech base. The outdoor area is really necessary to break up the square, boxiness of all the rooms. But it's way underused. Open spaces could use some flying monsters, especially before you get the Rocket Launcher, and a few Imps/Revenants/Hell Knights that throw things at you.

Also, in terms of diffculty, start thinking of opposites. Don't think "Harder means more monsters and more monsters means more ammo and weapons." You have five Shotguns placed in the map, three of them Hard only. Getting down the first hall is not bad because you can Shotgun the Imps at some distance. Try getting to the third Shotgun without picking up the first two; Pistol only. A lot harder, isn't it? Harder is actually more monsters and the same/less ammo/healing. Easy should have the most ammo/weapons/healing and least/easiest monsters.

A decent start. Keep going with it.

Edit: I forgot you said you wanted to use this map for Multiplayer. If that means Deathmatch, the exit switch needs to be in a separate room with an obvious exit-textured door so there's no chance of hitting it accidentally. If it means Coop, then never mind.

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If you want to keep the overall look of your map you should shoot for limit-removing. That is, it doesn't use any extra features not present in vanilla but it removes most of the engine limits that would normally crash the game.

http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Limit_removing

More on that if your interested.

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Okay... this is my first Alpha of Monster HQ. After playing Spicy Evil Spaghetti... everything is too easy. :p Well... that doesn't sound good at all. So... I've added some more monsters and ammo and all that good stuff. I've played it a few times now and the ammo seems to work out. Should it be harder?

https://www.mediafire.com/?asmh0s484mc9eta RELINKED (3/20/16)

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