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pablogener

A .wad I'm working on (and refuse to finish)

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There's this wad I've been working on for a while. I've come to a point where I think the level of detail, architecture and decorations, light levels, doors and animated textures, all that jazz is finished. But haven't had the guts to put enemies/weapons/health/powerups around the map to actually make it playable.
If anyone would like to jump in and finish it, I'd love to see where this map ends up.
I really really sincerely hope anyone would actually ever download this map and check it out, and it would be a miracle come true if anyone actually put monsters and other stuff in the map to make it playable.
As in many of my maps, what you'll find a lot of is semitranslucent impassable lines mocking glass, heavy work on the level of detail, and a sort of 'doom 3 atmosphera' inspiration.
This time around I tried really hard on not cramping things up and keeping a sense of logic in the map overall layout, making it a kind of a 'techno base layed out like a wheel', with 90ยช curved corridors conecting sectors.
I thank you all in advance for taking interest in this.

I'll leave you with the screenshots and .wad link.
Cheers!

Spoiler


testing.....1...2.....


























the .wad: https://od.lk/d/111768868_Gn86C/BASE1-v5.wad

PabloGener.

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I'm not gonna promise you anything (and certainly nothing soon) but I might take an interest in placing some things for you in this map. There are just a few things I have to ask first:

What's with all the misaligned textures?

What format is this for?

Why, in greater detail, do you not want to place the things in this map?

If nobody else beats me to the punch here, I might be willing to take a quick crack at it, but I'd just like that more info first. Also, that's all I'd be willing to do and before I invest my time doing part of your map for you I'd really like to at least not see any misaligned textures. That leaves the impression that you're not finishing it out of laziness rather then just a lack of inspiration or gumption.

I do like the general look of things, though, so keep beautifying it and your dream may very well come true; possibly with a better mapper than myself, too.

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Fonze said:

What format is this for?


I guess ZDoom, I see some wall textures used as flats.

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certainly zdoom (doom in doom format), there is no other way to get translucid textures. I'll fix all misaligned stuff in a brisk. The truth is I'm never really sure of where to put monsters and how to balance things with health and ammo and stuff. Its like I'm (kinda) good with architecture in general but pretty lame at making things playable. I tend to imagine, or emvision places that I tfy to recreate in game, of places that actually would have a purpose in the real world. I remember being a kid and play doom and think "what the hell is this place supposed to be??" right? I always felt the doom engine was good enough to create 'real' places and have a more imnersive experience. It's juxt that most doom fan-mappers don't orient things that way.

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pablogener said:

there is no other way to get translucid textures


You can have them with Boom too using the Action 260, it applies to the middle texture.

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gaspe said:

I guess ZDoom, I see some wall textures used as flats.


Good observation.



To the OP: I'd recommend switching this to Boom format if there is no other reason for zDoom to be the port. It's not that big of a deal, but it will increase the target player base, which'll net you more feedback. Other than that, I'll stay tuned for when you fix it up.

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Fonze said:

Good observation.



To the OP: I'd recommend switching this to Boom format if there is no other reason for zDoom to be the port. It's not that big of a deal, but it will increase the target player base, which'll net you more feedback. Other than that, I'll stay tuned for when you fix it up.


I see this is a 'good' idea, but (just off the top of my head now), could I use 3d models in boom? that would make it a GREAT idea!!

I haven't found a way to get 'translucid walls + 3d models' to work, since zDoom doesn't do 3d models and doomsday won't do anything other than vanilla/default .wad's (meaning no translucid stuff).

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So, here's how things are progressing:

BASE1-v6-boom.wad https://od.lk/d/111801049_7G9G6/BASE1-v6-boom.wad

BASE1-v6-zdoom.wad https://od.lk/d/111801050_koEVf/BASE1-v6-zdoom.wad

Both versions have all textures properly aligned. wherever there may still be misaligned textures is because I fail to 'see' them misaligned.
In the boom version I had to go through the whole map several times around to find every single little flat used as a wall/wall used as a floor or ceiling.

So, check it out now.

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HavoX said:

Boom (or to the extent, PrBoom+) doesn't support 3D models, sadly.


too bad. I like doom too much to start making maps for other games. I remember doing a couple (or more than a couple) of Q2 deathmatch maps using qoole, back in the day, to be used at LAN parties at home. Oh, those golden 'teenage days!!

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Ok, few things here.

First, if you wouldn't mind (not much of a big deal, though) could you put those screenies from the OP in a spoiler section so my phone/laptop won't have to load them all every time I visit this page? Not a big deal, but it'd be appreciated.

Second, what iWads exactly are you using for this because that one that was used as a flat is a Doom 1 texture and this is definitely a MAP01. I loaded it up with both Doom 1 and 2 iWads and there's still a few things missing, mostly flats, but there was one texture HoM.

Third, the misaligned textures; this is gonna be a big one. (The palette got messed up on these pics for some reason, but it should still be good enough for you to get the gist of things).

Spoiler



This is the first of many such instances of misaligned STARTAN. It's literally everywhere. Also SUPPORTS. This door is also not aligned.



More STARTAN and SUPPORTS in the first room. Also, the door's ceiling is the same as the neighboring sectors; it looks much nicer to give the door's ceiling a special flat. Speaking of doors, most, if not all of them did not have lower unpegged sides. That's fine if that's what you want, but most of the time that's looked at as a new mapper's error and so requires a bit more imagination to pull off well. I remember a few wads that have done it well have had the side walls split into two textures, with only one moving with the door. But the DOORTRAK just looks bad when it's not lower unpegged.




Silver SHAWN textures, UAC logos, those two circles above the UAC letters.




More of the same. This is the only shot that retained its correct coloring because I didn't take it into Paint; thanks Microsoft.




More SUPPORT. Also, all of your windows do this; kinda hard to see in this picture, but they bleed through the floor. There are a couple ways to fix it, but the easiest is to change the light level of one side by as low as 1 unit.




This doesn't look off to you? Seriously most of this stuff would look [b]so
much better if you simply auto-aligned the textures. What editor are you using? Also, vertical misalignment on the one by the door and the windows just look bad.




This one sucks that the palette on these pics got so messed up because it's much harder to see now. The back side of the opposite side's midtextures don't line up at all and neither do many of the front sides. I see what you were going for on the corner, though, but it looks so obviously tiled that it would look exponentially better to just auto-align them and call it a day.



There were so many more I just couldn't take pictures of them for fear I'd be a bit too harsh, but I think I pointed out good examples of the vast majority here. Keep at it, man :)

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Ok, I've gone through a massive amount of "shift-x/shift-y" texture aligning. I had to make slight changes to geometry where nothing would fix things, and have come up with this, I believe to be a fair 'done' candidate. There may still be things to fix here and there, but it's pretty much finished.
Now, would anybody please care to put things in this map that I could shoot around?? :D

https://od.lk/d/111828728_E4Nxv/BASE1-v7-zdoom.wad

cheers!

PabloGener.

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put pics in a {spoiler}, checked.
Iwad I'm using: Ultimate DOOM.
misaligned textures: worked on, I think I got it 99.99%.

the door with the same ceiling as the neighboring sectors is gone.
about the 'doors sides with lower unpegged flags', I like the 'animation' produced by not 'lower unpegging' door sides. I also love the way doortrak looks. Sorry for the eyesore, anyone is welcome to replace it with something better if they're going to work on the map.

what editor I'm using: GZDoom Builder. I intend to progress with time into 3d floor-over-floor architecture, bridges, and you know what else.

the 'rounded grate corners' have been dealt with.

check it out, and have a blast.

PabloGener.

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I took another look at the wad; the changes look nice! Still more areas that need to be touched up, though, as far as the texturing is concerned, go back and look. I'll outfit this with some mobs when you finish, but you do need to finish the layout. There's nothing behind the red door, no way to get outside (the middle area), and the teleport-looking-thing on the far east of the map doesn't function as well.

One last thing, you shouldn't change the map name in Slade or similar wad editing program from ExMx or MAPxx; it makes the map unplayable outside of wad/map editing programs. If this is to be a zDoom wad you can change the name in a MAPINFO lump, but you need to rename it immediately.

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Fonze said:

I took another look at the wad; the changes look nice!

thanks man.

Fonze said:

Still more areas that need to be touched up, though, as far as the texturing is concerned, go back and look.

I'll give it a shot, but can't promiss to find anything else. Texture alignment was never a concern to me. I don't even look for it or notice it in stock maps, and not even in pwads.

Fonze said:

There's nothing behind the red door,

It's meant to be nothing there. It's a cosmetic prop. Before you go complaining about that, you could bark at id for putting 'computer' textures in the original maps that wouldn't function at all.

Fonze said:

no way to get outside (the middle area), and the teleport-looking-thing on the far east of the map doesn't function as well.

read above. moreover, present day games have a huge amount of inaccesible geometry put there just for the sake of realism.

Fonze said:

One last thing, you shouldn't change the map name in Slade or similar wad editing program from ExMx or MAPxx; it makes the map unplayable outside of wad/map editing programs. If this is to be a zDoom wad you can change the name in a MAPINFO lump, but you need to rename it immediately.

I didn't know this was a problem. I'll get this done in the next version of the wad. And I will also take new screenshots with the current state of the map.

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Before I update the changes, I'd like to ask you, is it better to keep bumping up this thread, or should I start a new one with each newer version?

Ok, so here's the update:

6 screenies in the spoiler

Spoiler







https://od.lk/d/111862805_383Mw/BASE1-v8-zdoom-MAP01.wad

ok, in this version, the map is in zDooM (Doom in Doom format) MAP01 format.
and "all" the textures are correctly aligned.
Still waiting for anyone to step up and complete the map with mosnters/weapons/heatlh/armor/ammo/etc.

Hope you guys like the progress.
Cheers!

PabloGener.

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pablogener said:

Before I update the changes, I'd like to ask you, is it better to keep bumping up this thread, or should I start a new one with each newer version?


Bumpage. Prolly mostly a grey area, but I'd say that unless the project/map is totally different (or has received a major update/some other uncommon example) making a new thread would just be an annoyance, because it's unnecessary and can seem like there is something you are trying to hide, such as a bad review. Depends, I suppose, on your reputation with the community.

As for placing things; I think it's clear by now that I'm the only one who is biting here; so let's brainstorm for a sec. What kind of gameplay do you want here? I can make something I'll like all day every day, but this is your map so let's make something that you'll like. What kind of weapons/progression do you want to see? What kind of monsters and setups? Do you want it to be trap-heavy or light? I can make the monsters' placement or even the monsters themselves (with zDoom) different for the different routes; is this something you'd want to see? How difficult is okay? Do you like slaughtermaps? Ammo-starvation/abundance? What mapslot could you see this in? Just some of these basic thoughts will help me to tailor the experience to be more to your liking, since this is basically for you anyway.

I'll prolly start work on it tonight or tomorrow.

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Hey I'm working on your map now, but there are a few things I gotta say.

Since you're new to mapping or at least haven't learned many of the basics I would suggest against stuff like this in the future. Keep making these small maps to practice, for sure, but it's best to at least make the attempt to practice being decent all-around, even if your plans are to have a partner for every map you make. But with regard to the detailing and texturing, which you appear to like to do, I would highly suggest playing other people's wads and studying what makes their wads look light years ahead of this one. I'm sorry man, but the more time that I spend in this map the more I hate how it looks. Playing it I might not mind it so much, but it's a totally different amount of time-invested to edit than to just play.

Aside from that, you named this MAP01, despite it being for The Ultimate Doom iWad. I changed it over to E1M1. Once again I'd highly recommend studying a bit more.

The textures still are not aligned right. I hate to keep harping this so this is the last time I'm going to talk about it. But certain textures just look weird cut off like this:

Spoiler


Before


After; this was a simple fix that makes me wonder if you're really taking the time to look at this thing as if it were not yours and does not hold sentimental value. Ask yourself this question: would you be okay with this in another person's map? If so, I have lists and lists of "first wads" uploaded to /idgames over the last 5 months that you'd have a blast with, but I also have a list of some wads that blew me away and are what you should be striving for with your detailing. Once again, spend the time to play others' maps (and study them!); it is one of the most recommended pieces of advice that I see veterans give to new mappers/mappers that still have a lot to learn.

As I don't know what you want to see with this map's gameplay, I'm just doing something and it's gonna turn out the way it turns out. I am doing some small things here and there with the detailing and adding in a couple extra tidbits, but I'm not going to go through this map and make it look nice. That's for your pride to do.

Oh and I forgot to mention it earlier. but one of the other things that makes this map incomplete isn't just the useless red door, it's also the lack of an exit. So uh, I'm just gonna put one somewhere.

Easy mode is almost done, but I'm taking a break for now, prolly try to figure out what the Hell to do about the exit.



*EDIT*
Dude idk if you are aware of it but when you built the level to have damn near every line 2-sided, impassible-or-not, you made it possible for monsters to see and shoot you from the opposite side of the level.

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Alright man, here's an update for you with easy mode done; I'll get to work on medium and hard after I do my article for the week. Shouldn't take too long since I have most everything I need in place now. It really might not be a bad idea for you to fix the walls in the meantime. Maybe continue to work on the detailing and texturing as well.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zv43ccinjkzkvfc/BASE1-v9-zdoom-E1M1.wad?dl=0

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Dear Fonze:

About the texture alignment, you ask me if it would be okay for me to see misaligned textures in other ppl's maps. Yes! I have some kind of 'misaligned-not' goggles on for life. I really don't care, I don't notice it in stock maps or pwads, as I mentioned it earlier, and I believe that's the reason why this map, and other maps I made are reeking with misaligned textures.
The one you pointed out in one of your latest posts, I saw many occasions of that in my map, but wouldn't mind about it because I thought I had to care for textures that don't match one next to the other when continuing the 'picture' they draw together. But for a single line that is sandwiched between other different textures I thought there was no possible screw-up.

About gameplay, playability, etc: This is not going to be my map. I'm thinking of it as a map for the community. I'd like others to like it, to like playing it, to think it's fun to go around that 'ring-shaped' tech base shooting things down. So I guess we should think of a type of gameplay anyone would enjoy, even if it is the first time they play the game.

About how to place things on the map: The red door is a possible exit. I had in my mind the idea of putting the red key (maybe along with a demon) inside that non-working tele-pod. Set the demon free, get the red key, maybe kill the demon, make it so that you can't go back the way you came and are forced to progress in the same direction you were going and get back to that red door you just pass by at the beginning. It's a possibility, but it's totally up to you, or anyone else that would like to step in just now, to decide how to finish the map. Of course I'm aware of some modifications that would have to be done to the map to make it playable while adding things to it, like doors that close up and never open again, doors that open with remote walkover triggers, lights that go down or up, etc. Even adding geometry where to put stuff... So the bottom line is, make it fun like the original game was fun.

About the 'nameing' of the map, inside the editor, Im going through the wizard in GZDoom Builder and leave things 'as is'. Do I still have to erase MAP01 and type E1M1 in its place? would that do the magic to make it playable 'vanilla/from-commandline' without any other user intervention?

And also, I was thinking this could be a good entry map, so I wouldn't include a PR or a BFG, maybe you wouldn't include a RL either.

One more thing: THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME, INTEREST AND EFFORT! All your comments were very interesting and informative. I sincerely, truly thank you very much for all you're doing.

Pablo Gener.

PS: I'll give a whirl to the 'easy' version you just posted and go fiddling around the forums to try to find maps you made yourself too.

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Ok, so I played the map you uploaded (v9) It's perfect!! Dude just don't touch anything and leave it like that, see you implemented some of the things I was thinking about even before playing the version you made. I know that some things are very basic stock-like, like putting a red door right at the beginning of the map and a red key all across the map and having the player plow through monsters their way back to the red door, it's like it's been done an astronomical number of times, I know, but hey... this is 'our' map we're talking about, right?? haha!
So I love it.

I'm already toying in my head with a few ideas for a follow-up map.

Thanks Fonze, and thanks to all who had an interest in this.

PabloGener.

PS: I'll go through the map in the editor even one more time to see If I can spot more misaligned STARGR textures.

edit: I discourage the use of dropbox, concerned about the CIA. opendrive is a free open-source alternative.

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HMP done: https://www.dropbox.com/s/y1qumfs8hpp5gp0/BASE1-v10-zdoom-E1M1.zip?dl=0

Might could use some more rocket ammo towards the end, but it's good for now. I like to think of the beginning as a small, not-very-significant puzzle. I finally broke down and fixed the 2-sided walls so monsters will no longer see or shoot you from across the level (which you should keep in mind in the future not to do). It's much more playable now.

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Dear Fonze:
I'm downloading the HMP update. I had done the 'un-double-side-ing' of those walls in the middle myself too, but I'll try yours and load it in DB to see how you got it done. Another noteworthy thing is that I'm already working on the followup map to this one. Would you like to team up with me and keep on working on the 'things' in the map as well?
It's gonna be a kind of a big (very) rectangle, with a corridor all around it, very well lit, cool and comfortable, and a very dark and oppressive 'heavy machinery and heavy tech' maze in the middle (like the maze in E1M2) that should be filled with ugly traps and hellish monsters and zombies all up to the neck.
All the work you've done so far is very very much appreciated.

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Really I just made a 16 pixel-wide sector around the offending walls lining the middle courtyard, then rounded the corners to make it look kinda like it did before. I forgot what texturing you did so it all became grey stones, heh, but the architecture of it is pretty much the same.

UV is almost done; will prolly finish it tonight. I'll have to bow out of doing a follow-up for now; this was a nice break to refresh myself from the projects I'm working on, but I do need to get back to them at some point. Perhaps in the future, though :)

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Lots of excellent megawads are littered with the misalignment (if you can call it that) shown in the red circle here, and it literally does not matter.

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I did some things to the detailing (though very, very little) and made this thing Boom-compatible again! Had to make a couple new-ish flats to make it work (lazily turned the small blue and white lights into 64x64 images), but it's Boom-compatible now. I also did other... things, for UV difficulty (since I didn't go for custom monsters and Ultimate Doom is just so damned easy if not hitscan-heavy, cheap, and/or health/ammo scarce, which I wanted to avoid here. So instead I made UV a rocket-Hell that is pretty damned fun to play for me. I'd love to see some demos for this, even if just for the amusement of people playing with rockets indoors. Don't break the lamp, I ran out of superglue.

UV is much more trap-heavy than the previous skill levels and features some intricate trap set-ups to account for the multiple paths, so that no matter which way you go or whether-or-not you choose to clear the map before grabbing the red key, monsters will teleport into different areas and even the same encounter in the same area can happen multiple ways depending on how the player does what they do.

UV skill also has dynamic architecture that is only present on UV, because why the Hell not? Heh. One traps you in a room and the other repeatedly opens (open stay) a door (because monsters like to close it, lol), allowing a cyberdemon to roam the level.

BASE1-v12-Boom-E1M1
Format: Boom
IWad: Ultimate Doom
MIDI: "Blitzkrieg" by Blitzkrieg, cover version by Metallica

Let's see some demos for this!

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Woooow, faaaaaking wow, maaaaan!!! cool!
I honestly have to say that HMP was 'hard' for me, and I can't even imagine what UV must be, but having a cyberdemon on the loose inside this thingy... just gotta see that. I've been heavily working on the follow-up map so I haven't been posting much. And also I'm playing that megawad that just came out named Blood Stain II. It's great, btw.
But I WILL check out your latest version of BASE1.
thank you, Fonze!!

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Ah sweet man, I'm glad you liked HMP! Hopefully you'll like UV as well. Whenever you get the chance, you should change the name of this thread and update the OP to reflect on this map's finished status and reversion back to Boom format :)

Also, I'd still like to see some around the community give this thing a shot; pablo did a good job with its layout/construction and I put some good thought into it's gameplay, so it should be a fun, frantic little devil ;)

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That was fun, played on hmp, died a couple of times. Here's the FDA. Might try uv next when i have more time.

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Ah sweet man; I'm glad you liked it and that was a great watch! Thank you and I look forward to your UV run! (if you decide to go for it)

As a side note, I was glad to see the beginning not fool you and I laughed a bit when it looked like you were about to go on without the CG on your first run ^^

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