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raymoohawk

monster combination ideas?

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if you had to cut the doom bestiary in half or less by combining two or monsters and making a new one that is a sort of "average" wich monsters would you combine?

ideally this fusions should not be the monster inheriting the same attacks as its materials, but having a new attack that is a sort of in bewtween

do you have ideas of interesting combinations? if your a mapper i'd love what kind of "averaged" monster would you find a useful alternative to a stock monster?

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Chaingunner + arch-vile. It would be an arch-vile looking monster with a chaingun that shoots 20 direct damage and 70 blast damage bullets as fast as the current chaingun Kappa.

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Revenant combined with an Arch-Vile. So I only have to kill one of them instead of both.

Attack... maybe it uses the fire as a homing beacon for the missiles, speed up the homing missiles and have it fire two at a time. So if you don't get out of the way the fire damages you, blasts you up, and then you get hit by the missiles.

But really, I just hate both of those enemies. For the most part the only time I use the BFG is on 3 or more Revenants or an Arch-Vile, because I hate dealing with them. It'd be satisfying to kill such a bastard enemy.

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Chaingunner + Revenant = a medium-HP enemy who shoots volleys of very fast and slightly homing projectiles with slight randomized spread.

Arachnotron + Mancubus = a high-HP enemy who constantly shoots projectiles with medium spread.

Lost Soul + Shotgun Guy = a flying hitscanner with medium damage and just enough health to be killed by 1 shotgun blast.

Cacodemon + Cyberdemon = an actually dangerous flying enemy.

Zombieman + Demon = a pinky demon who may also shoot you with a pea shooter, so that you can't outsmart and outrun him so easily anymore.

Imp + Hell Knight = a simple medium-HP medium-damaging enemy.

Pain Elemental + Baron of Hell = a high-HP pain elemental who can actually defend himself at close range.

Spectre + Spider Mastermind = a large hitscanner with temporary invisibility as a compensation for his disadvantaging mobility.

Archvile = the only remaining enemy whose behavior is the best as is.

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Demon + Baron of Hell = Medium to High HP enemy that can charge at you, start to try and bite you, and shoots green fireballs at you too.... a pain in the ass, and would make a great endboss IMHO.

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Pain Elemental + Arachnotron = Pain Elemental that spawns souls with continuous fire.

Former human trooper + Mancubus = Ultra-fat former human trooper with two pistols.

Hell knight + Baron of hell = Light pink noble with a medium-pitched voice.

Imp + SS Nazi = Imp decked out in Nazi gear with a weakish flamethrower gun and only forward-facing firing frames.

Former human sergeant + Revenant = Skeletal monster that fires perfectly accurate shotgun pellets that curve around cover.

Cyberdemon + Commander Keen = Giant 4000 HP Keen that shoots rockets that do zero damage.

Spectre + Arch-vile = Arch-vile with translucency.

Cacodemon + Lost Soul = Flaming caco with the speed of the lost soul's charge attack that always moves in to use its melee attack.

Demon + Chaingunner = Chaingunner riding a demon.

Spiderdemon = perfect as is, becomes the new imp and is used dozens of times per level.

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antares031 said:

Arch-vile + Icon of Sin. Not only it can revive other monsters, but also it can spawn monsters by itself. Perfect for slaughter maps.

I'd love to see a monster like that with a kind of Icon of Sin skin, with white flesh all tattooed with pentagrams and runes, and with the ability to fire cubes as well as toast you at the same time. That would make a neat mini-boss.

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Pinky + Lost Soul = Enemy that leaps at you and bites at close range. Looks like a burning, skeletal Pinky(more or less Serious Sam's Kleer)

Pain Elemental + Archvile = Archvile that can spawn "Vile Souls". The Vile Souls can attack like regular lost souls but they can also possess dead enemies, reanimating them. Looks like a fatter Archvile with one big eye.

Revenant + Hell Knight = An enemy with decent health, but less agressive homing fireballs. Sligthly slower than the regular Revenant. Looks like a Satyr skeleton.

Baron of Hell + Arachnotron = A 750hp noble with a Plasma Rifle arm. Can also claw you at close range with his other arm. Looks like the Cybruiser from Realm 667.

Cacodemon + Mancubus = Flying enemy that rains volleys of fireballs from above. Doesn't have as many horns and the skin is smoother, with a more tan tone to it.

Spider Demon + Cyberdemon = Attacks with a volley of bullets and shoots two rockets, similar to General Fettgesicht, from wolfenstein. Looks like a stubbier Cyberdemon, the Chaingun is strapped to his chest's armor, and his arms are the rocket launchers.

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antares031 said:

Arch-vile + Icon of Sin. Not only it can revive other monsters, but also it can spawn monsters by itself. Perfect for slaughter maps.

deadwolves said:

I'd love to see a monster like that with a kind of Icon of Sin skin, with white flesh all tattooed with pentagrams and runes, and with the ability to fire cubes as well as toast you at the same time. That would make a neat mini-boss.


I've always felt the IoS would be best if one could script, in Vanilla, its spawning routine. Like, 'one revenant immediately, one rev every 60 seconds thereafter; one imp every 20 seconds; one caco every 30 seconds; one pain elemental every 150 seconds; one cyberdemon every 300 seconds; [rest of the desired monsters w/ spawning routines]', with some options for randomization. That way these maps would less RNG-based.

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rdwpa said:

I've always felt the IoS would be best if one could script, in Vanilla, its spawning routine. Like, 'one revenant immediately, one rev every 60 seconds thereafter; one imp every 20 seconds; one caco every 30 seconds; one pain elemental every 150 seconds; one cyberdemon every 300 seconds; [rest of the desired monsters w/ spawning routines]', with some options for randomization. That way these maps would less RNG-based.

Meh, I feel like the idea of scripting enemy behavior like that sucks the point out of them being a monster - they may as well be a sprite. But yes, having Cyberdemons pop out immediately wouldn't be a very balanced enemy, having a time limit before certain more powerful enemies appeared would make it a more balanced bad guy.

Also, I don't know if this counts as a 'combination', but what about Archvilles that rapidly and aggressively re-spawn themselves? You could build maps where you encountered one, and the second you did, you would spend every other second trying to escape. That would make for an interesting deadly enemy.

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Are you referring to Doom's original monsters as a "bestiary" or you had this bestiary in mind?

It does contain many monsters similar to the proposals above, but TBQH none of them would be good at the proposed role of replacing several of the original monsters.

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Vile Souls. They're lost souls and archviles combined. They fly toward you screaming "I wanna snackbar" and then blow the fuck up when they touch you.

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J.B.R said:

Revenant+Lost Soul=A monster that charges at you, can punch you after charging for a lot of dmg and can fire rockets while charging at you.

Oh, that reminds me of those annoying Kleer skeletons from Serious Sam.

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@scifista

some real potential there. i like the lost guy and zombie demon most, but all the proposals are pretty cool :)

@maes

i mean the stock doom monsters. i like the realm 667, but i think it suffers from wanting to make all the monsters boss class

@rdwpa

sound like you are being jokey, but i like where the former revenant is going :)

@horromovieguy

i like the painvile, it sounds very faithful to what the idsoft guys had planed originally :) the cacobus also sounds like a good minibus, raining down hell

this is a post from zdoom that vaecrius made (hideous destructor), i think it is really good and shows a good understanding of doom's bestiary

Spoiler

Vaecrius said:

Zombieman/Chaingunner. Size of zombieman, has chaingun, shoots 5 6-round bursts with random chance of looping to another burst instead of going back to see state.

Imp/Pinky. Size of the former, fast and almost as tough as the latter, long melee range so it only resorts to fireballs when it can't close in on you within (say) 2-3 seconds.

Lost Soul/Spectre. A flying nuisance that fades in and out of existence, usually behind you, gnawing at your face and getting in your way (and your rockets) at the worst possible moments.

Caco/Hellknight. Just a generic floating pinky-sized moderate-heavy hitter/soaker. Would be the basic generic mook for the post-SSG world.

Shotgun guy/Arachnotron: Heavily armoured android that shoots triple plasma shots at you.

Barrel/Bossbrain. Eggs/pods of varying size that can be exploded, if they aren't exploded in time they'll either divide into 2-3 smaller ones or hatch into one (or more) of the above.

Baron/Archvile. Scary super bullet sponge. Has both claw and hellfire attack, the latter of which, instead of blowing you up directly, explodes into seeking green fireballs that can either hit you for huge damage or raise a nearby corpse.

Cyberdemon/Mancubus. Enjoy your two-fisted mini-rocket spam!

Spiderdemon/Revenant. Imagine a towering, skinny, agile, relentless, agitated thing chasing after you launching rapid-fire tiny homing missiles. Definitely a more interesting fight actually worthy of the climax of Doom 1.

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raymoohawk said:

this is a post from zdoom that vaecrius made (hideous destructor), i think it is really good and shows a good understanding of doom's bestiary

Spoiler

Zombieman/Chaingunner. Size of zombieman, has chaingun, shoots 5 6-round bursts with random chance of looping to another burst instead of going back to see state.

Imp/Pinky. Size of the former, fast and almost as tough as the latter, long melee range so it only resorts to fireballs when it can't close in on you within (say) 2-3 seconds.

Lost Soul/Spectre. A flying nuisance that fades in and out of existence, usually behind you, gnawing at your face and getting in your way (and your rockets) at the worst possible moments.

Caco/Hellknight. Just a generic floating pinky-sized moderate-heavy hitter/soaker. Would be the basic generic mook for the post-SSG world.

Shotgun guy/Arachnotron: Heavily armoured android that shoots triple plasma shots at you.

Barrel/Bossbrain. Eggs/pods of varying size that can be exploded, if they aren't exploded in time they'll either divide into 2-3 smaller ones or hatch into one (or more) of the above.

Baron/Archvile. Scary super bullet sponge. Has both claw and hellfire attack, the latter of which, instead of blowing you up directly, explodes into seeking green fireballs that can either hit you for huge damage or raise a nearby corpse.

Cyberdemon/Mancubus. Enjoy your two-fisted mini-rocket spam!

Spiderdemon/Revenant. Imagine a towering, skinny, agile, relentless, agitated thing chasing after you launching rapid-fire tiny homing missiles. Definitely a more interesting fight actually worthy of the climax of Doom 1.

Indeed, great concepts.

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IMO the stock monsters are all pretty specialized and pigeonholed, and, rare for any game, quite balanced. E.g. giving the chaingunner's attack to a more resilient or faster-moving monster would be devastating.

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I think Doom 2 did a decent job of filling in holes that the Doom 1 monster squad had in it. Having said that, I think there should be a monster in between Cacos and Hellknights. Something that takes two SSG blasts to take down but isn't as dangerous as a Revenant in close quarters. I've always felt that Chaingunners had about 10 HP too much as well, they would be more fun to utilise if they went down in one shotgun blast.

The Icon of Sin was always a pretty terrible boss as well, since there is no real satisfaction in firing rockets at a texture in the wall. I'm surprised there hasn't been more effort to at least make it into a tangible, sprited monster, but hey, I don't have the talent to do it myself so I can't criticise.

Something in the Archvile area of difficulty that doesn't have a hitscan ability would also be nice. There is always that panic moment when you meet an Archvile where you think "I have to deal with this guy asap," but it would be nice if they were more of a glass cannon type monster (high damage/low health.)

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Nirvana said:

I think Doom 2 did a decent job of filling in holes that the Doom 1 monster squad had in it. Having said that, I think there should be a monster in between Cacos and Hellknights. Something that takes two SSG blasts to take down but isn't as dangerous as a Revenant in close quarters. I've always felt that Chaingunners had about 10 HP too much as well, they would be more fun to utilise if they went down in one shotgun blast.

The Icon of Sin was always a pretty terrible boss as well, since there is no real satisfaction in firing rockets at a texture in the wall. I'm surprised there hasn't been more effort to at least make it into a tangible, sprited monster, but hey, I don't have the talent to do it myself so I can't criticise.

Something in the Archvile area of difficulty that doesn't have a hitscan ability would also be nice. There is always that panic moment when you meet an Archvile where you think "I have to deal with this guy asap," but it would be nice if they were more of a glass cannon type monster (high damage/low health.)


I always thought the boss in Psychophobia would be a cool Icon of Sin replacement.

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MetroidJunkie said:

Cyberdemon + Former Sargent. Just a possessed human with a rocket launcher. Not very durable but very dangerous.


"Bazooka men" existed in the Obituary mod by TiC in 1996. They just ended up blowing themselves up all the time, as they were not immune to splash damage. Now a cyberdemon with a plain shotgun attack...weak, but a ton of HP and persistent ;)

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Imp/Lost Soul. A more organic lost soul that shoots fireballs in difficult directions, and charges strategically ie. not always at the player but sometimes to avoid attack (ie with a less mindless intelligence)

Zombie/Cacodemon. A confused floating ball of deceased humans, with pumping organs exposed, with twisted arms shooting pistols at you.

Archville/Cyberdemon. A slightly taller, much more metallic Archville which fires rockets through random portals around you.

Archville/Archville. An aggressive and self-replicating Archville which will easily fill up a room or even an entire area quickly, making it an extreme risk to the player.

Zombie/Demon. An easily defeated but disturbing mass of human beings on legs which is in agony, confused and will just as easily attack other enemies as the marine once spotted.

Pain Elemental/Spiderdemon. An easier version of the Spiderdemon, slower, dumber and with less hitpoints, but irritating as it will fire three lost souls in quick succession if it can target the player,

Chaingunner/Cyberdemon. A cyberdemon with half a human face and half a cyberdemon. This enemy would only be suitable for an appropriate map designed to give the player a chance.

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Spider Mastermind + Pain Elemental: In addition to its chaingun attack, it can now spawn Arachnatrons similarly to the Alien Queen from Duke 3D Atomic Edition.

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-A cyberdemon without mechanical parts, basically what it was before it became a cyborg. It would resemble a baron of hell, but much tougher.
-An undead imp demonically enhanced with gear for higher damage and speed in its fireballs, like the revenant.

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Hectic said:

-A cyberdemon without mechanical parts, basically what it was before it became a cyborg. It would resemble a baron of hell, but much tougher.
-An undead imp demonically enhanced with gear for higher damage and speed in its fireballs, like the revenant.


- That already exists on Realm667 it's called the Super Demon.

- An undead imp? Sounds pretty cool, do you mean like a skeleton imp? I don't think it should have gear. I think it should have a cool black magic attack or something demonicish. =P

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