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Death Egg

SLADE3's map editor...

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How early in development is it? I've tried using it in the past but in comparison to the likes of Doom Builder2/GZDoom Builder it feels so incomplete and non-intuitive. Is it just that I haven't used any non-Doom Builder map editors before, and a lot of other editors worked like this too? Or is it missing features and still in early development?

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When you say "incomplete", what do you think it still lacks?

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I don't know. Perhaps it's just how it's setup I'm not used to. Instead of right clicking creating whatever thing, vertex, line etc it just tells me I can move the camera, the way you change everything is setup completely differently... I'd like to start using it but maybe it's my fault for jumping into it without a guide.

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By comparison to the Doom Builder editors, just about everything seems primitive, at least to me. I grew up on wadauthor, which was quite usable at the time, but seems like a relic now. Just about every editor I've used, bar DeepSea, feels just like wadauthor or sometimes even worse, but there are a few out there I haven't tried.

3D mode and changing texture alignment right before your eyes = practically mandatory for me at this point!

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I feel that's the one part of SLADE3 that has decently advanced, the 3D mode as it stands is pretty nice. The 2D editor is really what gets me.

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You can add items by pressing insert, or space to start line drawing. Right click brings up a context menu, like any other GUI application. The context menu also has an option to add an item, though obviously it's quicker just to use the keyboard shortcut.

I wonder if people are saying it isn't intuitive just because they are used to DB. The SLADE3 map editor setup/controls are mostly based on earlier versions of SLADE, which were in turn based on older editors like DEU/DETH etc.

(GZ)DB does have a lot more features though, but that's a given considering how much longer it has been in development for, and that the SLADE3 map editor isn't its only focus.

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No offence (and forgive my ignorance if people use SLADE 3 exclusively for map design,) but I have to wonder why a map editor is being designed for Slade, when GZDoom Builder is so far along in development (on the shoulders of Doom Builder) and does such a great job already. Is the idea to surpass GZDB at some point (for instance in the event that GZDB stops being updated like Doom Builder 2?) Is it to just give people an alternative to GZDB or is it to make SLADE feel like more of a 'complete package' as far as editing Doom is concerned?

I feel like while the last reason would make SLADE an incredible program, it seems that with GZDB around, I have to wonder whether focusing on improvement/extension of features that SLADE is already good at (lump editing etc.) would be a better use of time. It's an incredible program in those regards but I don't think I can imagine myself using over GZDB for map editing; unless of course GZDB ceased updates and SLADE managed to close what is at the moment, the large gap of features.

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There are plenty good reasons for slade to have it's own map editor. The most obvious one being that slade is cross-platform, while GZDB is only for windows. Outside of that there are great arguments for having an encapsulated tool instead of having to use more than one, and also that slade's map editor could potentially integrate more with resource management in ways that GZDB never will (GZDB is purely a map editor and won't edit with other resources)

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sirjuddington said:

I wonder if people are saying it isn't intuitive just because they are used to DB.

Speaking for myself, yes, that's definitely why. I've only used SLADE3's map editor briefly, and I'm sure that I'd accustomize to it more than well if I spent as much time with it as with Doom Builder and if I actually learned about the basic shortcuts like Space.

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Nirvana said:

No offence (and forgive my ignorance if people use SLADE 3 exclusively for map design,) but I have to wonder why a map editor is being designed for Slade, when GZDoom Builder is so far along in development (on the shoulders of Doom Builder) and does such a great job already. Is the idea to surpass GZDB at some point (for instance in the event that GZDB stops being updated like Doom Builder 2?) Is it to just give people an alternative to GZDB or is it to make SLADE feel like more of a 'complete package' as far as editing Doom is concerned?

I feel like while the last reason would make SLADE an incredible program, it seems that with GZDB around, I have to wonder whether focusing on improvement/extension of features that SLADE is already good at (lump editing etc.) would be a better use of time. It's an incredible program in those regards but I don't think I can imagine myself using over GZDB for map editing; unless of course GZDB ceased updates and SLADE managed to close what is at the moment, the large gap of features.

I don't use the editor in Slade. Mostly because the the editor with the most tutorials seems to be GZDB. I think Slade is damn cool, but I think they should just work together. Put the two programs together and have the programmer(s) who's best at the 3D side of it do 3D mode. Have the DECORATE person do decorate and the like. Slade3 is a really amazing program. I have used it for custom textures and just looking at it for a little while you can see there's a lot to it.

Maybe that's all idealism, but I think GZDB has an edge as far branding. If a mapper wants to go further with their editing, it's not going to be long before they hear about Slade3 or XWE. XWE will be dismissed and ultimately Slade3 will be your texture/music etc. Editor.

That's how I came across it. I used an editor back in 2003ish, but when I came back to it everything had changed. I don't remember the first program that I used.

First... I looked up editors. DB2 stuck out first, but after doing a little more research GZDB took the prize. IMO. It wasn't until I needed to import textures that I heard about XWE and then some people said that it was prone to crash or distort or even delete your wad.

Obviously everything could change, but I always wonder in situations like this about how working together might contribute to the greater good. Some people have egos, visions, ideas etc. that can stop the work flow, but in a perfect world it would be awesome to see the two programs merge. GZDB looks more professional and I would ASSUME that whoever's working on it has lots of experience (collectively) programming. I haven't really looked into it much, but I think GZDB might already incorporate importing custom textures.

There is something to be said about Slade3, but I'm not really the one to say it. It seems as if it is a staple around these parts and for that I really appreciate it. I'm sure as I continue on this journey I'll learn more about both programs and maybe this message will seem laughable, but that's my, to: sense.

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everennui said:

I don't use the editor in Slade. Mostly because the the editor with the most tutorials seems to be GZDB. I think Slade is damn cool, but I think they should just work together.

They do. SLADE has an "Open map in Doom Builder" feature.

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Slade could potentially be better than GZDB if it gets developed. It already does some things better than DB, like the sidebar properties display instead of the modal window which makes editing properties easier and faster. It has better and more configurable Things display and vertex display.

I don't mean to shit on GZDB, it's great, but there are a bunch of things that could be improved:

  • Allow sound blocking lines to display in a different colour (regression from vanilla DB2)
  • Better things display, the bounding boxes are too transparent when not in things mode and thus hard to see. (another regression)
  • Add split and merge vertex functions
  • Add align vertices functions (one function to align only on y axis, another only on x axis)
  • Add distribute vertices functions (again, distribute-x and distribute-y)
  • Allow option to turn off automatic sector creation/deletion.
  • Create sector function in linedefs mode, for when you want a non-standard sector without jumping through hoops
  • Options to allow editing of only sectors. Right now if you delete a sector, it also deletes linedefs
  • Merge linedefs function
  • Option to stop GZDB from changing/removing hidden textures from lines when editing/pasting (very annoying!)
  • Continue to show properties of an item as long as it is selected, instead of only when hovering with the mouse
  • Option to show sector tags on map in linedefs mode (less switching between modes to find which tag to apply to lines)
  • etc...
I would use slade now if only for placing Things, except that it crashes constantly for me.

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jmickle66666666 said:

There are plenty good reasons for slade to have it's own map editor. The most obvious one being that slade is cross-platform, while GZDB is only for windows. Outside of that there are great arguments for having an encapsulated tool instead of having to use more than one, and also that slade's map editor could potentially integrate more with resource management in ways that GZDB never will (GZDB is purely a map editor and won't edit with other resources)


I can see the appeal in having all of the editing tools in one suite, but at the same time, I actually like having two separate programs in some respects; mostly because it cuts down on errors from one effecting the other. Slade3 still seems to crash quite often for me and most of the time it seems to be to do with dealing with lots of chunks of data at once (large copy/pasting of assets etc.,) so adding more for the program to handle would likely make me concerned with using it.

I suppose in a perfect world having Slade3 as the go-to all around tool for everything Doom related would be fantastic, but I can't help but think that perhaps it would be best to focus on honing the features that Slade is best at - at least for the time being, while GZDB is still being regularly updated.

That being said, there is obviously nothing wrong with Slade3 being developed into what is ostensibly a more all round, better tool to work with, so this is less of a complaint and more of an observation.

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Sometimes I wonder if there are good tutorials for Eureka and the Slade3 map editor. It would be nice not to restrict myself to windows and wine...

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BrainMuncher said:

I don't mean to shit on GZDB, it's great, but there are a bunch of things that could be improved:

    A bunch of items


My guess is that you have not used GZDB often and therefore have not explored all its features.
Some of these items are in GZDB, some are trivial.

If you feel that something is amiss with GZDB, the proper route to take would be in the form of a feature suggestion or sent a PM/email to MaxED, or post in the GZDB thread on the zdoom forum.

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Kappes Buur said:

My guess is that you have not used GZDB often and therefore have not explored all its features.
Some of these items are in GZDB,

You guessed wrong! Care to point out which of these are in GZDB?

some are trivial.

A matter of opinion. The point is the OP was asking whether SLADE map editor has any value. I pointed out a couple of things it does better already, and more ways it could improve on GZDB.

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BrainMuncher said:

Care to point out which of these are in GZDB?


For example the first two items, linedef colour and thing transparency

Spoiler

Spoiler

Each new release of GZDB is accompanied by a somprehensive manual. It is well worth reading it. As well as the complete list of keystrokes from Help.

But let me repeat:

Kappes Buur said:

If you feel that something is amiss with GZDB, the proper route to take would be in the form of a feature suggestion or sent a PM/email to MaxED, or post in the GZDB thread on the zdoom forum.

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BrainMuncher said:

Care to point out which of these are in GZDB?

-Allow sound blocking lines to display in a different colour
>They display in a different color in Sound Propagation Mode

-Better things display, the bounding boxes are too transparent when not in things mode and thus hard to see.
>Tools -> Preferences -> Appearance -> Thing transparency

-Add split and merge vertex functions
>Go to Vertices Mode. Split vertices by right-clicking the linedef which you want the new vertice to be part of. Merge vertices by dragging one onto the other.

-Add distribute vertices functions (again, distribute-x and distribute-y)
>What does "distribute" mean? Like, create a bunch of vertices with evenly sized distances between them? Use Draw Grid Mode. Or do you mean to randomize their position? Use Randomize.

-Create sector function in linedefs mode, for when you want a non-standard sector without jumping through hoops
>Press Insert

-Options to allow editing of only sectors. Right now if you delete a sector, it also deletes linedefs
>It deletes them if they end up in the void, where they shouldn't exist. And if you want to remove a sector in such a way that its area would be immediately filled by another sector, and keep its linedefs intact, use Join Sectors function in Sectors Mode.

-Merge linedefs function
>To merge adjancent linedefs, go to Vertices Mode and select+delete the vertices between them.

Also:

-Allow option to turn off automatic sector creation/deletion.
>When does GZDB automatically delete sectors?

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So the SLADE3 map editor is complete? Even on Mac? Has it been tested there?

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Kappes Buur said:

For example the first two items, linedef colour and thing transparency

Awesome, I didn't know what that thing was for, I figured it was for setting the default properties of linedefs you draw. I looked where the other line colours are in the appearance preferences...

Kappes Buur said:

This was added to the program on the same day as my post. It was not there before. It's perfect.

Kappes Buur said:

Each new release of GZDB is accompanied by a somprehensive manual. It is well worth reading it. As well as the complete list of keystrokes from Help.

For some reason the manual does not work for me, it says "cannot navigate to page". Keystroke list is obviously useful, but I view them in the preferences if I ever forget (I re-bound a lot of them).

scifista42 said:

-Add split and merge vertex functions
>Go to Vertices Mode. Split vertices by right-clicking the linedef which you want the new vertice to be part of. Merge vertices by dragging one onto the other.

-Merge linedefs function
>To merge adjancent linedefs, go to Vertices Mode and select+delete the vertices between them.

Yeah that's how I do those things now. But in certain situations the split and merge functions would be very useful.

scifista42 said:

-Add distribute vertices functions (again, distribute-x and distribute-y)
>What does "distribute" mean? Like, create a bunch of vertices with evenly sized distances between them? Use Draw Grid Mode. Or do you mean to randomize their position? Use Randomize.

I think these pictures should explain what I mean. They are pretty useful once you get the hang of them:
http://imgur.com/a/q8qt0

scifista42 said:

-Create sector function in linedefs mode, for when you want a non-standard sector without jumping through hoops
>Press Insert

I meant select existing linedefs and create a sector from them. It would be useless unless you could turn off automatic sector creation.

scifista42 said:

-Options to allow editing of only sectors. Right now if you delete a sector, it also deletes linedefs
>It deletes them if they end up in the void,

Yes it deletes them, which is a shame because now I have to draw them again and assign textures and properties.

scifista42 said:

-Allow option to turn off automatic sector creation/deletion.
>When does GZDB automatically delete sectors?

When it has no sidedefs left. Sometimes when you're drawing it will decide to make a sector which steals lines from an existing one, deleting the old one sector and thus all it's properties & tag. Yes, if you think carefully in advance there is usually a way to make the edit while at no point leaving any unclosed sectors that might unexpectedly get "fixed", but it's easy to lose some by accident.

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BrainMuncher said:

Yeah that's how I do those things now. But in certain situations the split and merge functions would be very useful.

How would splitting a vertex work? And vertices are merged when you drag'n'drop them over each other. Or do you mean merging multiple selected vertices into one (which one?)?

BrainMuncher said:

I think these pictures should explain what I mean. They are pretty useful once you get the hang of them:
http://imgur.com/a/q8qt0

Can you give some practical examples where this is useful?

BrainMuncher said:

I meant select existing linedefs and create a sector from them. It would be useless unless you could turn off automatic sector creation.

I don't really understand what you mean. You want to create a sector... but not?

BrainMuncher said:

Yes it deletes them, which is a shame because now I have to draw them again and assign textures and properties.

Why do you want to have lines without sidedefs?

BrainMuncher said:

When it has no sidedefs left. Sometimes when you're drawing it will decide to make a sector which steals lines from an existing one, deleting the old one sector and thus all it's properties & tag. Yes, if you think carefully in advance there is usually a way to make the edit while at no point leaving any unclosed sectors that might unexpectedly get "fixed", but it's easy to lose some by accident.

You you reliably reproduce that? Sounds like a bug.

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boris said:

How would splitting a vertex work?

If you had say, one vert that has five lines coming off it. After the split you would have five verts all stacked on top of one another, and not connected. So you could move one of the lines apart without moving the other four lines.

boris said:

And vertices are merged when you drag'n'drop them over each other. Or do you mean merging multiple selected vertices into one (which one?)?

Yes this would only really be useful when you are working with "merge geometry" turned off. Merge on top of the first one that was selected, since that's how sector merging is done, makes sense to use the same convention.

boris said:

Can you give some practical examples where this is useful?

Any time you have lines on a wonky angle that you want straightened. Any time you want a bunch of things to be evenly spaced eg. stairs. Basically any time you're not working with grid-aligned rectangles, and many times when you are. Wouldn't allow you do anything you can't already do, but could be a big time saver.

boris said:

I don't really understand what you mean. You want to create a sector... but not?

Manually create a sector, vs automatically.

boris said:

Why do you want to have lines without sidedefs?

Actually it would be nice if the sidedefs hung around as well until I give them a new sector to reference.

boris said:

You you reliably reproduce that? Sounds like a bug.

Yes it is easy to reproduce, but it is not a bug, it's just a result of how the auto sector creation works.

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I started out using DeepSea and SLADE3's map editor. Sadly the latter felt almost unusable for me. I use GZDB nowadays to put together my maps.

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Sgt Ender said:

I started out using DeepSea and SLADE3's map editor. Sadly the latter felt almost unusable for me. I use GZDB nowadays to put together my maps.

'Unusable' how, exactly?

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sirjuddington said:

'Unusable' how, exactly?

It felt weird using, and I used this before Doom Builder.

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