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Azuruish

So, what do you think about BitCoin?

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Let's see if you pro-Bitcoin guys can answer some questions:

1: What's the incentive for me to use Bitcoin when 99% of all services I use (including rent and utilities for my apartment) are paid in Dreaded Fiat Money?

2: With the cost of electricity factored in to calculate Bitcoin algorithms, as well as the specialized hardware, when exactly would I profit?

3: Why is it that most wealthy Bitcoiners mainly trade their coins for Dreaded Fiat Money? Does this not reinforce the irrelevancy of Bitcoin itself?

4: Can you explain the similarity of the Stages of a Bubble and Bitcoin's Price History?

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Azuruish said:

That this is public is not enough. Yeah. You see who sent and who receive bits but to figure out who are owner is quite problematic if user use fake IP or better TOR Browser for transactions.

It has nothing to do with IP addresses. It has to do with analysis of bitcoin wallet addresses and the blockchain.

Also, Bitcoin exchanges sometimes take your private information as part of the signup, and some are legally required to do so. That's a good way to trace things back.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/518816/mapping-the-bitcoin-economy-could-reveal-users-identities/

This is why it's only "pseudonymous".

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Mr. Freeze said:

Let's see if you pro-Bitcoin guys can answer some questions:

1: What's the incentive for me to use Bitcoin when 99% of all services I use (including rent and utilities for my apartment) are paid in Dreaded Fiat Money?

2: With the cost of electricity factored in to calculate Bitcoin algorithms, as well as the specialized hardware, when exactly would I profit?

3: Why is it that most wealthy Bitcoiners mainly trade their coins for Dreaded Fiat Money? Does this not reinforce the irrelevancy of Bitcoin itself?

4: Can you explain the similarity of the Stages of a Bubble and Bitcoin's Price History?


1. There was a fun factor in being an early adopter of the Bitcoin experiment. :-)

2. Mining was never supposed to be done by the majority of Bitcoin users. If you mine, you should already know that it will cost you.

3. Most Bitcoiners still have real-world fees to cover, and as you said, most services accept only traditional fiat money. Most Bitcoiners aren't adverse to using such money, either.

4. That's easy. Because there have been many, many bubbles.

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AndrewB said:

This logic makes no sense. It's like arguing that the millions of shitty garage bands somehow prove that Metallica was insignificant.


Now we're talking about two different kinds of value: artistic/sentimental versus monetary/practical, but I like this analogy as it illustrates something important. Metallica was significant regardless of how many other people ever picked up a guitar, and that significance is increased by the larger cultural movement they were a part of. However, if it somehow transpired that Metallica was the only band in the world with guitars and drums during their most active years, would they have made even more money? Probably, yeah; they'd have a higher practical value as more of the world would come to them for entertainment, and their assets would command more monetary value.

I agree with CSonicGo that valuations based on speculation are meaningless, as historically these valuations have trended down to zero when actual usage doesn't rise up to justify them. The bulk of BitCoin's valuation has nothing underpinning it besides speculative forces. People invest in BitCoin for its sentimental value. They have a picture in their heads of what they want cryptocurrency to be, and as the first major player in that space, BitCoin is a rock star. However, its monetary and sentimental value are both threatened by copycats. The best case scenario for cryptocurrencies is that the average consumer has room in their life for one of them. These currencies directly compete with each other for a limited number of potential adopters. On the sentimental/speculative side, BitCoin will slowly lose its cachet as investors realize there's nothing inherently unique or irreplaceable about BitCoin amidst the sea of competitors.

fraggle said:

I forgot to mention: you can experience what it's like to use Bitcoin using this advanced Bitcoin simulator. Even though it's a joke parody game, as far as I can tell it appears to be perfectly accurate.


Thanks for posting this. Their Bitcoin Mining Profit Calculator has a ton more content. I'm still poking around it and I seem to have wandered into a fully realized Monkey Island parody.

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Azuruish said:

Probably... I know. I never bothered about to keep there really big moneys as they can suddenly disappear to somewhere but to lose 15$ for me not so horrible.


No, you will BE ARREST BY POLICEMEN!

I mean, a few posts above you said that if you use bitcoin in Russia you're banned for 5-10 years. So why use it? Or do you think the police won't find you? Listen, the police are already reading these very forums. They already know you're using bitcoin. They're probably looking for you right now! Run!

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Csonicgo said:

I guess because it's a factual statement?

Or not.

Any such interim valuations on bitcoin, or any cryptocurrency, are meaningless.

Any reason why you're arbitraraily declaring cryptocurrency to be magically exempt from the laws of supply and demand?

What will ultimately determine the success or failure of these things is the price that will be agreed on by many businesses and shops, and you need people actually using this stuff before that will ever happen.

Yes, and none of what you said means that the price is meaningless. You would expect the price of such a currency to be very low. And it is low. Market cap in the low billions compared to the trillions for most fiat currencies.

Today's valuations are irrelevant in this regard

Repeating something doesn't make it more true.

Even then you're still going to have to pin the Bitcoin against the dollar

Why? Most currencies float against other currencies. Why should we believe your arbitrary declaration that this is different?

Once banks started to ponder the idea of a blockchain but with actual currency that matters (USD and GBP), which would combine the "benefits" of bitcoin with the stability of the dollar, well, looks like there are less reasons to use the funbux.

If you believe these currencies are going to survive, despite all historical precedent, then of course your anti-cryptocurrency position would make sense.

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Mr. Freeze said:

1: What's the incentive for me to use Bitcoin when 99% of all services I use (including rent and utilities for my apartment) are paid in Dreaded Fiat Money?

It's a highly speculative junior currency. The incentive is if you believe in its fundamentals and expect it to eventually reach a market cap in the trillions (similar to other currencies), in which case your returns would be a thousandfold or more.

2: With the cost of electricity factored in to calculate Bitcoin algorithms, as well as the specialized hardware, when exactly would I profit?

See above.

3: Why is it that most wealthy Bitcoiners mainly trade their coins for Dreaded Fiat Money? Does this not reinforce the irrelevancy of Bitcoin itself?

To take profits off the table, of course.

4: Can you explain the similarity of the Stages of a Bubble and Bitcoin's Price History?

I'm sure you could make similar comparisons to Apple, Google, etc.

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AndrewB said:

If you believe these currencies are going to survive, despite all historical precedent, then of course your anti-cryptocurrency position would make sense.


You're supposed to throw the shitpost grenade after you pull the ring, smartie.

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Bitcoin doesn't exactly ring sound investment. If you want something you can sink your teeth into, invest in precious metals like silver or gold. I guarantee you they're far more stable in the long run since, unlike Bitcoin, it carries real world value and you can't just make more by typing into a computer.

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ChekaAgent said:

No, you will BE ARREST BY POLICEMEN!

I mean, a few posts above you said that if you use bitcoin in Russia you're banned for 5-10 years. So why use it? Or do you think the police won't find you? Listen, the police are already reading these very forums. They already know you're using bitcoin. They're probably looking for you right now! Run!

Oh shit... I'm done. I will miss this forum.
But if seriously our 'ROSCOMNADZOR' (company which worries about security in internet) are so stupid. There are banning every site which easily can be avoid by simple anonymizer.
What they can to do it's send you to jail for reposting pictures with Putin. No one safe here in Russia =D

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Sorry for bump of an old post... :D

So, now it's about 17357 USD for one bitcoin... I wonder what's gonna happen to it in the coming years...

At least according to John McAfee it's better to keep growing until 500K USD, or else he will have to eat his beloved parts :D

 





 

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This thread is funny to look back on. Most people have no business messing with bitcoin to be quite frank. It's not a normal currency, and It will never be one. You can invest in or mine it if you're feeling sparky, But unless you're into Dark Markets It's really best to Stick to Normal cash.

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Just bought my first 0.02 BTC with 300€ when it was 12900€ in value per one BTC, now it's 15225€/BTC, a few days later. Not a big investment to lose if it crashes, but if it goes 20x during the next year like the Winklevosses predict it's a nice thing to pull out do something with, and keep part of it in BTC just for the sake of seeing how much it grows or crashes :D 

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What's funny is the environmental footprint of the bitcoin. Since the entire thing is based on arbitrarily complex computations, a bitcoin transaction is equivalent to several million normal (e.g. Visa or MasterCard) transactions. People operate server farms just to mine bitcoin or oversee transactions.

 

https://www.inverse.com/article/39138-bitcoin-energy-consumption

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That's what I dislike about Bitcoin. So much energy is wasted on pointless calculations! Stuff like Primecoin sounds much cooler to me since the calculations are actually useful and help humanity.

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22 minutes ago, Memfis said:

That's what I dislike about Bitcoin. So much energy is wasted on pointless calculations! Stuff like Primecoin sounds much cooler to me since the calculations are actually useful and help humanity.

The problem is that there are very few better ways (if there's any at all) for a proof that is hard to produce, but easy to verify. And AFAIK, other proof methods have terrible, often unaccounted flaws.

 

Consider wasted energy as a price for security.

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11 minutes ago, Katamori said:

Consider wasted energy as a price for security.

Using the word "security" in a bitcoin thread is satire, right?

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This thread reminds me why I never post here any more. Being able to quit your day job and eat steak & lobster every night, really takes away the appeal of responding to people who refuse to educate themselves.

 

And no, I'm not cashing in my crypto.

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2 hours ago, Memfis said:

That's what I dislike about Bitcoin. So much energy is wasted on pointless calculations! Stuff like Primecoin sounds much cooler to me since the calculations are actually useful and help humanity.

Or doomcoin that you get for killing monsters.

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While Bitcoin may be the big player right now, it won't stay that way forever. The Market isn't content to keep a juggernaut forever, it'll lose steam before too long and another Crypto Coin will likely become the next Bitcoin.

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On the other hand, the energy consumption dilemma might finally force the world into an era of sustainable energy. Some crypto forums write how nations and corporations are investing more and more to cryptocurrencies. Some people have used their Tesla car's powerful computers for mining bitcoin when charging the battery, too :D

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For work like 6+ years ago we'd hire overnight graphic artists in Europe for projects that needed to get done in short time spans. That involved me working overnight when our own graphic designers went home to their wives and newborns.

 

The European graphic designers would charge less for Bitcoin. I knew nothing about it, my company knew nothing about it. I was the one that had to figure it out and pay everyone and my company was reimbursed. As time went on, the company slowed down. No overnights, no need for freelancers. So I was just left with a few thousand dollars worth of Bitcoin. I had to have thousands as freelancers wanted to get paid half up front and half at the end until we had a repore with them. Then they were fine with being paid at the end.

 

One of the last guys that wanted Bitcoin failed to meet the deadline, so he was a good sport and didn't want the money. That was $400 worth of work for a few days.

 

A friend of mine has been gung ho about Bitcoin for those 6 years, maybe more. Telling me I have to get Bitcoin, he'd even give out $5 worth to people just to get them started. Since he's gung ho about it, I block out the Bitcoin discussion, because when he gets on a subject he won't stop. Now he tells me oh man you should have got on Bitcoin years ago when I told you. Its up to $14,000.

 

That's what triggered the memory oh yeah I have thousands of dollars just sitting there for all those years. I can't tell him about it as he will just stay focused on that topic and never deviate. I can't tell other friends about it because then I'd have to explain what Bitcoin is. Its my secret to live with. I've started to liquidate everything back into cash (bank statements). I won't liquidate everything, but the growth is enough to hop off the train and have a good life. With that said, my life will never change. People will still think I'm a bum with no furniture in my house.

Edited by geo
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As a musician I do see the potential of crypto's as a form of digital cash money, transaction directly from a person to person without a central bank in between. Same applies for any kind of art sellers. Of course it's best to be converted into fiat money after unless meant to save it. In Finland BTC becomes taxable when it is moved to a traditional bank account, especially if somebody made a lot of money with it. Tax office needs to be informed on it, and they are quite actively looking for tax avoiders using BTC as a quick-rich fix here.

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Same in the US. Once you turn that bitcoin into cash, you have to acknowledge it in your taxes unless you want the IRS down your throat.

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I bought 120$ of Bitcoins, 50$ of Litecoin and 50$ of Ethereum two weeks ago. I'm not losing a lot if the price goes down, but if the price quinvigenuple like it did between today and the same day last year, then I'll be making a lot of profits.

 

In Canada, I have read you have to declare any capital gains or losses with Bitcoin on your tax return, because it's like investing in gold. I see it as another currency. I bought $120 USD once and when I exchanged it for CAD a few months later, I made a 20% profit. It would be wrong if we had to keep track of the profits or losses made when exchanging currency. I think the government only cares if you have made a lot of profits.

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You "have to" declare capital gains when you cash in btc, but no moreso than you "have to" report income when a family member pays you cash to fix their roof or something.

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