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Azuruish

So, what do you think about BitCoin?

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1 hour ago, ([zen3001]) said:

No idea how it works so I won't touch it anytime soon, but being able to let some computers mine money sounds interesting so i might read a little more about it

 

Bitcoin is the first iteration of the blockchain technology, it uses a proof of work method for confirming the transactions which is basically thousands of computers solving constantly more difficult cryptographic problem, and solving the problem rewards the solver with bitcoins. These days it's almost impossible to mine them by oneself, as it requires enormous amount of power. China has the biggest amount of bitcoin mining facilities these days. Also they might have the most of Litecoin and Ethereum mining facilities as well.
 

Personally, I like that there is some more utility for the technology than just a network of computers that validate transactions when people send money to each other or buy Bitcoin from cryptocurrency exchanges like Binance or Coinbase for example. I've been following Ripple and their technology xRapid and xCurrent for some time now, technology that uses the XRP token as a cryptocurrency in xRapid to provide fast settlements for central banks for cross-border transactions and more. They are already working with about 200 banks and recently made a deal with Moneygram to start use their technology. The main problem with cross border payments for individuals and institutions is the long time that it takes, and the need of so called nostro and vostro accounts that basically are needed because sending money takes so much time. These accounts are used for pre-funding the accounts of senders and receivers. Replacing these systems with technology of Ripple might solve a big problem and would free up to 60 trillion USD back into circulation which is lying around these accounts worldwide.

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Honestly Bitcoin is one of the few things I just can't seem to wrap my head around and as a result I am very curious about passing judgement on something I don't understand. I get the anonymity. But the techinicalities is above my head and that means I stay away from it for the time being.

 

To those who criticize it for the volatility of the currency, that's really to be expected with something new that pricing will greatly fluctuate until the market settles as the players get a sense of what the "actual" value is.

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Bitcoin is the perfect currency for you if you're rolling coal. "Why yes I do believe that every single commercial transaction should consume about as much power as lighting for a large city." If that's you, then you will love the whole "proof of work" thing -- what makes the value of a bitcoin is the impressive amount of gigawatts that go into mining it. It's something that is inefficient by design, this inefficiency being what is supposed to ensure that everyone stays with a single shared transaction history despite the decentralized nature. Basically, the only way to cheat at bitcoin mining is to have the majority of the bitcoin processing power.

 

And when you examine it, this very idea is completely stupid. Instead of creating a money that's free from government control, it's a money that's controlled by whatever bothers to expend the most resources into controlling it; and guess what, government have more resources than individuals. That's why Bitcoin is controlled by China now.

 

And then there's still the thing about it being incredibly wasteful. You can make millions of Visa/Mastercard/etc. transactions for the same processing cost as one single Bitcoin transaction. With Internet trade growing and growing exponentially, what makes the most sense to use, something that works fine for very large numbers or something that gets congested easily?

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Sometimes I feel bad that I used all my bitcoins to buy... chemicals for research on the nervous systems of mammalian lifeforms.

 

Even by today's bitcoin price, the bitcoins I used for that are worth enough to fuel some big investments. If I had kept those bitcoins in my wallet and sold them at the top of the bitcoin bubble, I'd be fucking rich.

But, luckily for me, my dealings with bitcoin were REALLY REALLY early, so I don't have any economic shame. No one could have predicted bitcoin would raise so hard (and drop so low).

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Posted (edited)

My friend lost all his big Bitcoin money investing in the new fad and units to mine said fad. I however, still have yet to do anything with my Bitcoin money from a few years ago. I still have 10% of what I had 2 - 8 years ago. No one I work ever bothered to ask hey weren't we paying Europeans in Bitcoin 8 years ago before business went sour? What ever happened to that?

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Gez said:

Bitcoin is the perfect currency for you if you're rolling coal. "Why yes I do believe that every single commercial transaction should consume about as much power as lighting for a large city." If that's you, then you will love the whole "proof of work" thing -- what makes the value of a bitcoin is the impressive amount of gigawatts that go into mining it. It's something that is inefficient by design, this inefficiency being what is supposed to ensure that everyone stays with a single shared transaction history despite the decentralized nature. Basically, the only way to cheat at bitcoin mining is to have the majority of the bitcoin processing power.

 

And when you examine it, this very idea is completely stupid. Instead of creating a money that's free from government control, it's a money that's controlled by whatever bothers to expend the most resources into controlling it; and guess what, government have more resources than individuals. That's why Bitcoin is controlled by China now.

 

And then there's still the thing about it being incredibly wasteful. You can make millions of Visa/Mastercard/etc. transactions for the same processing cost as one single Bitcoin transaction. With Internet trade growing and growing exponentially, what makes the most sense to use, something that works fine for very large numbers or something that gets congested easily?

 

I think the total energy consumption of Bitcoin now is about the same as the energy consumption of Las Vegas. Another reason why I like XRP is that it uses very little electricity compared to Bitcoin and even VISA.

 

 annual_energy_consumption.jpg

 

EDIT. this chart is from May 2019, from this blog post: https://xrpcommunity.blog/introduction-to-xrp-2019-edition/

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It was recently estimated as being more energy per year than the whole of Switzerland.

 

If you know anything about the technical details of the system you'll know that it runs on wasting energy and incentivizing people to waste as much energy as they can. At the time when we're grappling with climate change being a serious looming threat, it's frankly kind of obscene that we're even allowing a system like this to be run.

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How would you stop it? Its main drivers are greed and stupidity which cannot be contained.

 

If you try to regulate it, those thriving on it would just move to other countries that don't.

The only way would be to make energy sufficiently expensive that the whole thing collapses, but this will fail for the same reason: Someone always will sabotage the effort and keep it viable.

 


 

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On 4/4/2016 at 8:00 PM, GreyGhost said:

Paging Doom Marine to the thread!


There's plenty of money to be made in the BitCoin market if you're at least mildly unscrupulous and can afford to lose your investment, but for paying everyday bills I'd stick to fiat currency.

 

1. Bitcoin sucks, Ethereum is everything bitcoin strove to be. If your crypto antenna is sharp and you have skin in the game, the industry mantra of "blockchain, not Bitcoin" is coming true.

 

That blockchain is Ethereum... @AndrewB

 

2. Proof of Work is an environmental disaster, Proof of Stake is the future.

 

3. Evaluating cryptocurrencies (blockchains) based on technical merits alone without considering game theory, is missing the socially uncensorable incentives that keeps the machine running, much to the annoyance of economists...

 

4. Vitalik Buterin: "Blockchains are NOT about cutting computational costs (at least relative to centralized servers). Blockchains are about incurring a sacrifice in the form of INCREASED computational costs to achieve a *decrease* in *social costs*."

 

 

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Posted (edited)

The market is not stable now. But it's a good opportunity to buy for a lower price. The cryptocurrency market is a profitable industry, believe me, or not but there are a lot of people who make really good money investing in the cryptocurrency. Also, it's necessary to find a good crypto signals provider because it's the best source of the information.

Edited by Tove

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On 7/6/2019 at 4:57 PM, Doom Marine said:

 

1. Bitcoin sucks, Ethereum is everything bitcoin strove to be. If your crypto antenna is sharp and you have skin in the game, the industry mantra of "blockchain, not Bitcoin" is coming true.

I agree, but a step on the way. "blockchain, not crypto" is how I think it will ultimately turn out writ large.  Many of the use-cases of a distributed immutable database do not require an ever-appreciating currency.  I see things like Hyperledger and the major cloud provider's blockchain offerings taking the biggest role in light-side blockchain usages.  True immutability isn't even such a desirable property in many real-world use cases when combined with a lack of accountability. Links to child porn, doxxing info and other nasty things are already irrevocably stored in the btc and eth chains.  Of course, this trade-off is already accepted for the regular internet, but resisting censorship is not, I'd argue, a mainstream use case.

 

That said... going against my own argument, I could see IoT presenting a bunch of possibilities enabled by smart contracts plus cheaply transferable digital currency.

 

As for eth, specifically, while I think Vitalik one of crypto's most trustworthy figures and the protocol governance is much better, Ethereum's even worse IIRC than bitcoin in terms of mining group power distribution. Think between two to three groups typically control over 50% of the network hashrate.

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11 hours ago, holaareola said:

I agree, but a step on the way. "blockchain, not crypto" is how I think it will ultimately turn out writ large.  Many of the use-cases of a distributed immutable database do not require an ever-appreciating currency.

 

It doesn't need a currency, but does need a limited token to access the network, lest anyone can write on the ledger and spam it to death.

 

The question then: Is paying for the transaction fees more economical than maintaining servers and admins?

 

Ersnt & Young, one of the big four accounting firms, seems to think so: https://www.ey.com/en_gl/news/2018/10/ey-launches-the-world-s-first-secure-private-transactions-over-the-ethereu-public-blockchain

 

EY, Docusign, insurance giant AXA, and several internation banks for starters, are conducting their business on the ethereum ledger.

On the next post, I'll list the corporate adoption of the Ethereum blockchain.

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A GIANT LIST OF ETHEREUM INDUSTRY ADOPTION

---------------------------------------------------------

 

1. Europe Completes Its First Ever Blockchain Real Estate Sale for €6.5 Million

"The deal – which was managed by French blockchain investment platform, Equisafe – was powered on the ETHEREUM [platform], and was the latest of several worldwide efforts to bring real estate sales onto blockchain technology."

 

2. Swiss bank Dukascopy developing its own ethereum-based stablecoins

 

3. EY helps Bofrost Italia to build one of the first blockchain platforms to trace frozen foods in supply chains

"Using the Ethereum public blockchain for the Bofrost Italia solution allows each of the players in the supply chain to record their information, without any possibility of altering the data from the outside."

 

4. EY Open-Sources ‘Nightfall’ Code for Private Transactions on Ethereum

"One of the world’s largest consultancy firms has released a new set of protocols for enabling private transactions atop the ethereum blockchain."

 

5. MetLife Announces Ethereum Pilot Program

"MetLife has faith that the pilot program will be a success. In fact, if proven to be effective, MetLife would be the first to formally implement Ethereum’s network in the insurance industry."

 

6. Iceland’s Currency Will Be First in Europe to Be Traded as E-Money

"Electronic money is fiat held and transferred digitally. The ConsenSys-backed Monerium will initially operate using the Ethereum blockchain..."

 

Another home run for Ethereum, what else is new?

 

7. MetLife Plans To Disrupt $2.7 Trillion Life Insurance Industry Using Ethereum Blockchain

Would you look at that, my insurance company is onboard Ethereum as well!

 

8. Polish Bank Alior Uses Public Ethereum Blockchain For New Document Authentication Feature

Hey guess which blockchain banks are using again

 

9. Building hybrid blockchain/cloud applications with Ethereum and Google Cloud

Hey look, when Google uses blockchain, Ethereum is the first choice.

 

10. Bloomberg Terminal Lists Ethereum-Based Debt Instrument

 

11. State Farm, USAA to Pay Each Other Insurance Claims on Blockchain by 2020

"Announced Thursday, the companies developed this system using Quorum, the private enterprise version of Ethereum created by JPMorgan Chase."

 

12. Bank of Ireland and AIB are using a new blockchain platform to verify their staff's credentials

"It has been built using the Ethereum blockchain by Deloitte’s EMEA blockchain lab, a Dublin-based development hub that’s building solutions using the technology for clients."

 

13. Why Bosch is jumping on the Ethereum blockchain

"A Bosch spokesperson confirmed to Decrypt that the multibillion-dollar engineering giant has been running prototypes using Ethereum, the world’s second biggest blockchain."

 

14. Three huge names that are making Ethereum their platform of choice

Three huge names that are making Ethereum their platform of choice: JP Morgan, Amazon, MSFT

 

15. Major Ethereum Project Launch from Deloitte Teased at Consensus 2019

 

16. World’s Fifth-Largest Electrical Company Is Using an Ethereum Dapp

 

17. Ethereum Consortium Launches New Enterprise Tools with Input from Microsoft, Intel

 

18. William Shatner joining the Ethereum bandwagon

 

19. ‘We’ll Tokenize the House’: Mortgages Are Coming to Ethereum This Summer

"The fintech startup Fluidity will announce plans for the first ethereum-powered mortgages in California and New York..."

 

20. JPMorgan Quietly Reboots the Blockchain Behind Its JPM Coin Cryptocurrency

Initially Quorum was a private-only Ethereum network. They're realizing that just like the internet era, open public standards are the way to go when it comes to interacting with other enterprises.

 

21. SocGen Introduces Crypto to a $2 Trillion Market

"It was registered on the Ethereum blockchain, a public ledger, and earned the highest credit rating from Moody’s Investors Service and Fitch Ratings."

 

22. Breaking down the Forbes Blockchain 50

image.png.dde2ba8b183dab62e24a8b687fc178af.png

 

23. Societe Generale - One of France's Biggest Banks - Issued the First Covered Bond as an STO On The Public Ethereum Blockchain

 

24. CapBridge to Use Ethereum’s Mainnet for Equities Trading

 

25. The Enterprise Ethereum Alliance Collaborates with Microsoft and Others to Launch a New Token Development Initiative

 

26. Forbes Releases ‘Top 50 Billion-Dollar Companies Exploring Blockchain’ — Over Half are Working with Ethereum

 

27. Auditor EY Unveils Nightfall, An Ambitious Bid to Bring Business to Ethereum

 

28. Owner of Burj Khalifa, World’s Tallest Building, Plans ICO

"The firm will partner with Lykke AG, a Switzerland-based crypto startup to build an ethereum-based token designed to comply with the ERC-20 standard."

 

Ownership of world's largest building to be transferred onto the Ethereum platform.

 

29. Samsung Unveils Cryptocurrency Wallet, Dapps for Galaxy S10 Phone

"The Samsung Blockchain Wallet is currently compatible only with ether (ETH) and ethereum-based ERC20 tokens."

 

... Of course Samsung would choose Ethereum. They did their homework and it turns out that Ethereum is the defacto blockchain platform.

 

30. Nevada Issues Almost 1,000 Marriage Cert on Ethereum

 

31. This Brazilian Bank Is Using Ethereum to Issue a Stablecoin

 

32. Blockchain Gaming Is Coming to the PS4

"Arcade Distillery, a game developer that creates titles for PS Vita, PS4, Xbox One and Nintendo Switch, is gearing up to launch a new game for the PS4 built around the Ethereum (ETH) blockchain."

 

33. GOLDMAN SACHS AND ETHEREUM: Goldman Is Actively Exploring The Creation Of An Ethereum Product To Offer Clients

 

34. “We are Big Believers in Ethereum” – J.P. Morgan

J.P. Morgan To Tokenize Gold Bars Using Ethereum-Backed Blockchain

 

35. Compound Launches Money Markets for Ethereum Assets

 

36. COMMONWEALTH BANK COMPLETES NEW BLOCKCHAIN-ENABLED GLOBAL TRADE EXPERIMENT

"...CBA is using the ETHEREUM blockchain in this project. ETHEREUM currently has the most development activity globally, and offers the functionality we require."

 

 

37. eBay and Foxconn Join the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance

 

38. AXA Launches Ethereum Smart Contract Insurance Product for Flight Delays

This is an actual enterprise smart contract running on the Ethereum main net.

 

39. Dutch multinational banking and financial services corporation ING contributes to Ethereum's ZKP on GitHub

 

40. U.S. Digital Signing Giant DocuSign Integrates Ethereum For Smart Contract Signature Verification

This is the most perfect use case for Ethereum. I used Docusign every other month or so to sign contracts.

 

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Posted (edited)

A few takeaways from the evidence presented:

 

I. The chattering classes are talking about bitcoin, while the industry onboards Ethereum...

 

II. When the industry talks about "blockchain, not bitcoin", they meant Ethereum, NOT IBM Hyperledger or some consortium blockchain ran by their competitor

 

III. Related to II: Recall 1995, Bill gates wanted Microsoft to build the information superhighway, controlled by them. The effort failed because their competitors adopted open web standards that led to the modern internet. The moral of the story: companies don't want walled garden that gives the provider a leg up, they want open standards... same thing with blockchain. Open public blockchains are openly verifiable, 100% uptime, and the cost of maintaining it is delegated elsewhere... an enterprise's wet dream come true. 

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