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999cop

Doom 2016 on Oculus

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Won't happen anytime soon.

In case you didn't know, id Software's co-founder John Carmack left the company to become the CTO of Oculus a few years ago, and he was sued by id Software's parent company (Zenimax) for taking his work on VR with him.

So there's bad blood between Oculus and Zenimax.

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ChickenOrBeef said:

he was sued by id Software's parent company (Zenimax) for taking his work on VR with him.

So there's bad blood between Oculus and Zenimax.

Why did Zenimax have an issue with that? IMO, VR for Doom sounds like a great idea. Experiencing those glory kills and chainsaw kills sounds damn cool with VR.

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Zenimax took issue because they claimed that work which he performed and code he created while being paid by Zenimax, the intellectual property of which would be owned by Zenimax, was taken with him to Oculus and used there for Oculus's gain.

I don't recall the outcome of the suit, but it does mean we're unlikely to see an Oculus/Zenimax project any time soon.

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Carmack swears up and down that not a line of code was taken from Zenimax and that they can see for themselves that there isn't because it's open source. They conveniently waited until after Facebook bought Oculus to throw a hissy fit about it, presumably because they wanted some money.

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Doom would need serious alterations of it's playing style to bring it to any of the VR systems.

In the current state, the first glory kill (either by you, or an enemy) wouldn't be a pleasant experience.

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AirRaid said:

Zenimax took issue because they claimed that work which he performed and code he created while being paid by Zenimax, the intellectual property of which would be owned by Zenimax, was taken with him to Oculus and used there for Oculus's gain.

I don't recall the outcome of the suit, but it does mean we're unlikely to see an Oculus/Zenimax project any time soon.

I still can't get in my head.
Basically: Carmack (Zenimax) wrote code for VR. Then Carmack (Oculus) wrote said code for VR.

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Hell, the reason he left ID was because Zenimax wouldn't let him write for VR. Seems silly that they're now claiming to own the concept.

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MetroidJunkie said:

Hell, the reason he left ID was because Zenimax wouldn't let him write for VR. Seems silly that they're now claiming to own the concept.


Carmack took almost the entire tech team from iD over to Oculus. Zenimax probably just wanted to get payback in some form.

But yeah, when Carmack was initially working for both Oculus and iD at the same time, he said he would have stayed with iD if the new DOOM could be a VR game. That was shot down, so he left completely.

Carmack is obviously a guy who always wants to explore the latest technology, but I think Zenimax/Bethesda just wanted to make sure the new DOOM was a great all-around game, rather than worrying about early VR tech.

You can argue that VR is the only chance for the new DOOM to have a similar impact to the original Doom, so perhaps Carmack's idea was the right choice. Or it could have hindered things. As others have said, the game would have probably been slower and closer to Doom 3 in order to accommodate VR.

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ChickenOrBeef said:

You can argue that VR is the only chance for the new DOOM to have a similar impact to the original Doom, so perhaps Carmack's idea was the right choice.


Yeah, I thought of this too.

Or it could have hindered things. As others have said, the game would have probably been slower and closer to Doom 3 in order to accommodate VR.


Interesting observation! I never thought of that! If this is true then it is also possible that not only Bethesda were against it but also the team at Id.

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ChickenOrBeef said:

You can argue that VR is the only chance for the new DOOM to have a similar impact to the original Doom, so perhaps Carmack's idea was the right choice. Or it could have hindered things. As others have said, the game would have probably been slower and closer to Doom 3 in order to accommodate VR.


Even with VR, there's no way it would have the same impact because VR has already been done countless of times already. Doom was one of the first to have a completely scaled environment with differing heights in the environment and different brightness levels, it felt so much more atmospheric than something like Wolfenstein 3D could ever dream of. Sure, there are games that precede it but Doom seemed like the first mainstream one to combine all these elements to create a type of environment never thought possible before.

The new Doom would have to have entirely new graphics techniques and possibly somehow a new dimension in order for it to have anywhere near that kind of impact. It's kind of asking for the impossible, here. I get Carmack's desire to take Doom to the next level, though.

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Unfortunately Carmack handed them the case by doing *any* amount of consultation or communication with a 3rd party firm from his *work email address.* A judge could find in ZeniMax's favor based on that alone since it was use of company resources for outside work. If this had been strictly confined to moonlighting for Oculus, then ZeniMax could not have claimed shit.

I just find it funny they're so damn concerned about Oculus when they're not trying to take advantage of any of the other VR alternatives on the market. Kind of proves the whole case is bullshit, to me.

Also I am pretty sure the reason Oculus's bid to make a deal with ZeniMax originally failed because ZeniMax wanted to cut out Palmer and the rest and hog the glory and the money entirely for themselves. It had to have been an unfair deal they were offering or Oculus would have went through with it, given the later sale to Facebook. Maybe if they'd start treating humans like humans and stop acting like corporate Nazis, ZeniMax would have better fortunes in the real world outside their stuffed-suit corporate board room.

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It's been a long time since I looked at the Zenimax complaint, but IIRC the facts alleged in it were pretty damning for Carmack / Oculus.

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I remember you posting the PDF of the results of the case. All down to technicalities in the end. I'm glad that, as far as anyone can see, it didn't take the steam out of Carmack.

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It always possible as user's mod. All this situation about Carmack, Zenimax and Oculus VR must be good trigger to create best VR mod at date. IMHO. I don't think new Doom is too fast for VR, plus vertical gameplay must be awesome with these helmet.

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NoisM said:

It always possible as user's mod. All this situation about Carmack, Zenimax and Oculus VR must be good trigger to create best VR mod at date. IMHO. I don't think new Doom is too fast for VR, plus vertical gameplay must be awesome with these helmet.


It's not the speed, it's when you move sideways (semi-bad) or backwards (incredibly bad) without user input. You can get very sick very fast from this (Simulator Sickness), and if this sickness hits you, you are out for a couple of hours.

Plus, if the head tracking is not implemented well, you will also get problems. I am not talking about emulating mouse movement, you also have to emulate any other movement your head does. Without support in the engine, it is quite hard to do that with a user's mod, but it would be great if somebody manages to do it.

I know many might think that might hang this too high, but I am a great fan of the new level of consumer VR that is emerging now, and I played around with basically everything that was released (Oculus DK1 and DK2, Vive Pre, currently waiting for my Vive to arrive *rhymes), and you will notice one thing quite quickly: there is a great deal of responsibility for the developers to not make their audience sick. If VR wants to succeed, there shouldn't be too many things out there that make people sick for several hours, as that might put many people off.

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DooM_RO said:

He did this before.

Rememeber when he used to make games while working at Softdisk?


Yeah, after reading Masters of Doom I wouldn't be surprised if Carmack is guilty here. His mantra has always been about constantly improving and doing away with anything holding him back. So if he felt iD was holding him back after they shot down his VR ambitions, then he probably started talking to Oculus right away.

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Doomkid said:

I remember you posting the PDF of the results of the case. All down to technicalities in the end.

Uh, the case hasn't even gone to trial yet.

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ChickenOrBeef said:

Carmack is obviously a guy who always wants to explore the latest technology, but I think Zenimax/Bethesda just wanted to make sure the new DOOM was a great all-around game, rather than worrying about early VR tech.

You can argue that VR is the only chance for the new DOOM to have a similar impact to the original Doom, so perhaps Carmack's idea was the right choice. Or it could have hindered things. As others have said, the game would have probably been slower and closer to Doom 3 in order to accommodate VR.


I disagree, in that I doubt Carmack saw things that way. Even he has to know that VR is niche at best for the forseeable future. I have yet to meet anyone in real life who even knows or cares what it is. On the average gamer, I feel like its going to have the same effect as 3D did. Its not affordable, its not really integrated into any great games that don't have cockpits, and its a serious hindrance to anyone who needs to pause and get up and deal with kids etc.

In short its not overly practical yet, and I HIGHLY doubt anyone thought Doom would make a good VR game, especially Carmack, someone who is working on it daily. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I've found no sources indicating Carmack left for those reasons.

...(that being said, my google-fu has and always will be, shit.)

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Ironhound said:

I disagree, in that I doubt Carmack saw things that way. Even he has to know that VR is niche at best for the forseeable future. I have yet to meet anyone in real life who even knows or cares what it is. On the average gamer, I feel like its going to have the same effect as 3D did. Its not affordable, its not really integrated into any great games that don't have cockpits, and its a serious hindrance to anyone who needs to pause and get up and deal with kids etc.

In short its not overly practical yet, and I HIGHLY doubt anyone thought Doom would make a good VR game, especially Carmack, someone who is working on it daily. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I've found no sources indicating Carmack left for those reasons.

...(that being said, my google-fu has and always will be, shit.)


It was an interview he did for USA Today a couple years ago:

USA Today said:

Carmack had hoped that Oculus VR and ZeniMax Media, the parent company of id Software, would agree to allow games he worked on to appear on the Oculus Rift headset. Had the deal been consummated, Wolfenstein: The New Order — an upcoming sequel to Wolfenstein 3D, an early id release — could have been part of the Oculus' tech demonstration that earned raves and awards at the recent Consumer Electronic Show.

Doom 4 eventually would have been part of the deal, too, and playable on the VR headset. "It would have been a huge win," says Carmack, who was still full time at id when he proposed the deal. "It seemed like a sensible plan for me."

ZeniMax declined comment for this story.

Another outcome of an Oculus-ZeniMax deal? Carmack would not have left id in November and would have continued working at both companies. "I would have been content probably staying there working with the people and technology that I know and the work we were doing," he says.

"But they couldn't come together on that which made me really sad. It was just unfortunate," Carmack says. "When it became clear that I wasn't going to have the opportunity to do any work on VR while at id software, I decided to not renew my contract."


http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2014/02/03/john-carmack-on-oculus-rift/4938887/

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