Archive rejections getting too subjective?

[Blastfrog]

wow2.zip was recently rejected for "nobody needs wow.wad sequels. go away.". While I agree that nobody needs wow.wad sequels for obvious reasons, it's no harm to add it to the historical record. AFAIK that file didn't violate any rules.

It's an archive, not a "best of" collection.

[scifista42]

Sodaholic said:

AFAIK that file didn't violate any rules.

Maybe this one: (if the map was impossible to exit)

https://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/31922-newstuff-and-idgames-faq-read-this/

11. What will be rejected?

-"Demo" WADs that are not playable in their own right (other than editing examples).

[baja blast rd.]

Sodaholic said:

wow2.zip was recently rejected for "nobody needs wow.wad sequels. go away.". While I agree that nobody needs wow.wad sequels for obvious reasons, it's no harm to add it to the historical record. AFAIK that file didn't violate any rules.

It's an archive, not a "best of" collection.

Was the submitter spamming entries or engaging in similarly disreputable behavior? If not, this is quite an obnoxious rejection reason.

[kuchitsu]

Is theer a link to the wad in question?

[Blastfrog]

kuchitsu said:

Is theer a link to the wad in question?

Not that I'm aware. I'll admit that I don't know what its contents are, regardless, the rejection reason somewhat concerns me.

[gaspe]

Sodaholic said:

AFAIK that file didn't violate any rules.

Sodaholic said:

Not that I'm aware. I'll admit that I don't know what its contents are

okay

[fraggle]

I'm big on the importance of archiving but I have to admit even I'm finding it hard to see this as a big deal.

[Blastfrog]

fraggle said:

I'm big on the importance of archiving but I have to admit even I'm finding it hard to see this as a big deal.

wow2.wad is more than likely no loss, but I fear that it could set a precedent for needless rejection of jokewads. Jokewads are a form of expression, just not the same kind of expression as a well-crafted level. The aims are different.

[Linguica]

Does the idgames archive include that one old white-power Doom WAD, just wondering.

[roadworx]

Linguica said:

Does the idgames archive include that one old white-power Doom WAD, just wondering.

...what?

[VGamingJunkie]

Sodaholic said:

wow2.wad is more than likely no loss, but I fear that it could set a precedent for needless rejection of jokewads. Jokewads are a form of expression, just not the same kind of expression as a well-crafted level. The aims are different.

I don't think a Jokewad and a well-crafted level have to be mutually exclusive concepts. You can have a Jokewad that is well crafted, can you not? Even in the realm of comedy, there is a certain expectation of quality. You can't just slap together lazily made crap and try to justify it as being ironically bad for the same of humor, doesn't work like that.

[Xaser]

Speaking without seeing the wad, it's probably still a safe bet that "obvious troll is obvious" applies here. :P

I feel like a "no zero-effort crap" clause somewhere in README.INCOMING may be a good idea to make matter-of-judgment stuff like this "more official". That's sorta a formality though.

[40oz]

I understand your position of "where do you draw the line?" but idgames uploads eventually have to be reviewed and you have to understand Bloodshedders position having this job fall into his lap and then update the website with /newstuff articles which will be packed with junk wall-of-text reviews for junk wads if he leaves the floodgates open. Its a thankless job and produces nothing of value for the players (I know you're not seriously wishing there were more wads with injured cybies in illusio-pits).

Mockery wads only exist to be funny and like knock-knock jokes, there's not a lot of room for innovation. That ship sailed decades ago and even then it barely got off the beach.

[VGamingJunkie]

40oz said:

Mockery wads only exist to be funny and like knock-knock jokes, there's not a lot of room for innovation. That ship sailed decades ago and even then it barely got off the beach.

How about a hybrid? One that's set up as well as a legitimate level but filled with plenty of gags in the process? For instance, a Cyberdemon could spawn in front of your face but, instead of attacking, it just explodes into candy.

[kuchitsu]

Dunno, I genuinely enjoyed Anacoluthon for example, laughed at it a lot, recorded a speedrun, and I'd like to see more similar stuff.

[Jaxxoon R]

40oz said:

Mockery wads only exist to be funny and like knock-knock jokes, there's not a lot of room for innovation. That ship sailed decades ago and even then it barely got off the beach.

I feel that same way about Boom-and-lower-format mapping.

[yakfak]

Kappa

edit: what I meant to say was that, as long as the average zDoom release consists of tech hallways full of Realm667 enemies, it will never overtake the standard limit-removing map set. things like dead.wire and skulldash are very encouraging but hardly anyone shows real signs of wanting to catch up to that watermark

[Danfun64]

Jaxxoon R said:

I feel that same way about Boom-and-lower-format mapping.

So you think having the latest & greatest tech is more important than having a rock solid foundation that can be played on anything?

[dew]

We already have origwad and wow in the archive, I see no value whatsoever lost here. And 40oz touches upon the right string, terrycrap and "wow2" try to worm their way into the archive to troll unsuspecting people and give some pathetic asshat a kick out of an angry idgames comment - or, if the admins are caught napping, the holy grail of terrymapping: a scathing, "controversial" /tns review. Lel I trolle all of u!

[Da Werecat]

Danfun64 said:

So you think having the latest & greatest tech is more important than having a rock solid foundation that can be played on anything?

For some players innovation = new engine features.

I imagine it's pretty hard for them to exist in the current era of Doom modding, considering that the last 5 years or so were focused primarily on pushing the standarts of level design forward (while leaving the base game mechanics mostly intact).

[Doomkid]

If someone has like 2 rooms connected by a door and a lone imp, I'm sure it would be accepted. There must have been something else going on.

Edit: Mapping has pretty much always been steadily getting more impressive over time and new engine features will of course continue to be implemented, but to say anything in Boom format or lower has "sailed" is kind of ridiculous. There's always room for new even within the confines of the old engine.

[Jaxxoon R]

To begin with -- this is not what you'd call -- thinking. Over the past 20 years a kind of consciousness formed layer by layer in the crucible of the /idgames archive. It's not unlike the way a small dog becomes consumed by fleas when not properly groomed by a licensed barber. Trivial wads are accumulating every second, taking up thousands of terabytes across the globe, preserved in all their mediocrity. The temptation of releasing fledgling works to the world, gone is the experimental folly of a young artist. Like a child Leonardo's scribbles for all the world to see. The new, the innovative, is such a small minority in a mountain of sorry wads throughout all formats from the beginning to now. The only difference is failure in each format leads to different results. Everyone starts out being told the same things. "Height variation!" "Texture alignment!" "Start with Boom." The insisting for one to start at Boom level siphons young blood away from mapping on the more complex formats like rats manipulated by parasites to rush into the gaping maws of a cat. Humans being creatures of habit are rare to leave their comfort zone. You exercise your right to "choice," to "preference," and this is the result. The untested truths spun by different interests continue to churn and accumulate. Everyone withdraws into their own small gated community, afraid of a larger forum. They stay inside their little ponds, leaking whatever "truth" suits them into the growing cesspool of the community at large. The different cardinal truths neither clash nor mesh. No one is invalidated, but nobody is right. Each side, each viewpoint, each one searches to be proven wrong by the other side, but none possess the will to prove themselves wrong by taking action. A growing rift, a growing disinterest. A split between those that make the worlds and those that aim to fill them. And this is the way the Doom community ends. Not with a bang, but a whimper.

I imagine not having eaten yet factored into that first, initial comment's very poor "no, you" structure. But essentially what I wanted to get across was that 40oz's comment was very ignorant in how it disregarded a subject as broad as "wad with comedic elements" as being dead and beaten. Exemplified, by an equally ignorant comment attacking a far narrower subject that people are actually passionate about, it seems.

I think the Doom community is simply either too serious, or too "lowest common denominator" in execution to allow such a thing as comedic wads to thrive.

[Da Werecat]

Some time ago people were screaming "Add more detail!" instead of "Height variation!" Slopes and scripting were the shit. Strangely enough, it wasn't a time devoid of mediocrity, except said mediocrity manifested itself differently. Just like the current era isn't devoid of masterpieces, although their accomplishments are more subtle.

As for comedic wads, I think they're just too hard to pull off to be popular. Doom is a good game. You can lazily slap some sectors together and still get something playable, unless you do something really wrong. Making something genuinely funny requires a lot more effort, especially considering that everyone has a different perception of funny. Still, it's not like this niche isn't recognized here, I mean Mockawards exist... usually.

[Jaxxoon R]

I can't believe you took that pile of pseudo-intellectual gggmork gibberish for a first paragraph seriously. I went to extreme lengths to make it as obviously absurd as possible and yet you still missed the joke. I ripped most of it from the ending of MGS2 for god's sake.

[Xaser]

I think you've proven his point about mockery being hard to pull off.

[Jaxxoon R]

And it proves my point of people being too serious!
ahahaha!

[an_mutt]

Da Werecat said:

As for comedic wads, I think they're just too hard to pull off to be popular. Doom is a good game. You can lazily slap some sectors together and still get something playable, unless you do something really wrong. Making something genuinely funny requires a lot more effort, especially considering that everyone has a different perception of funny. Still, it's not like this niche isn't recognized here, I mean Mockawards exist... usually.

I've settled on the idea that - more often than not - it's a mistake to try and add substantial gameplay to a jokemap. Look at DOOD. You only need to look at it to get the joke. You play it for 10 seconds to get everything, and it's great. It's a punchline in .wad form. Of course, to most folk, spamming boss monsters inside startan covered non-architecture is the punchline, which is why nobody really cares about them.

[gemini09]

Personally I find very, very, very little interest in "joke wads" because DOOM is an action-game and not typically the venue for comedy --- that said; meh, okay, alright.............

[Da Werecat]

Jaxxoon R said:

I can't believe you took that pile of pseudo-intellectual gggmork gibberish for a first paragraph seriously.

The first paragraph actually looks like an altered quote from somewhere. What wasn't clear is why would you do something like this. It seems to actually represent your own point of view to a certain degree, if another thread is any indication.

In any case, there are people who would write the same things and mean every word, believe it or not.

Jaxxoon R said:

And it proves my point of people being too serious!
ahahaha!

Every weak comedian's mantra, I imagine.

[Jaxxoon R]

It's a good thing humor is subjective, then.

And for the record, it was written stone-faced. Not even I found it funny. I just wanted to produce a mocking exaggeration of a somewhat real occurrence.