DOOM is getting ripped and torn by negative Steam reviews

[Jaxxoon R]

Are you familiar with the way braindead fans of YouTube LPers attacked other LPers for playing the same games as or criticizing the former LPers? It's not impossible for people like that bellslammer to cause negative reviews for that game to happen just by having a stick up his ass about the game with a ton of impressionable subscribers.

Just replace "Brofist!" with "Quake 3!"

[doom_is_great]

Ok, after increasing the FOV to the max, now the game seems fast enough. Despite being one of suckiest players in all the matches, I generally had a pretty good time playing this game even though I am not really that into MP. I just hope that singleplayer doesn't get raked over the coals even though it probably will since most so-called "fans" are impossible to please and really don't know what they want.

[sheridan]

TheMightyHeracross said:

The idea is this: a bunch of dudes who probably played (or watched) Quake 3 for 20 minutes and think that every arena shooter needs to be "like" Q3.

Where did you get the idea that this is the actual demographic that's criticizing Doom right now?

You know, there is a crap-ton of design overlap between the Doom series and the Quake series. It is not unreasonable or outlandish to expect, after games like Q3 moved the design forward with interesting new mechanics that (among other things) raised the skill cap for major competitions, that the new Doom would maintain a modicum of what made the Doom/Quake design so powerful and deep. For many players, this new game is such a regression on that design that it's worth being upset about.

Of course if their expectations had been different, they probably wouldn't have been disappointed as badly as they were, and if they had kept up with the game like we do, they might've known that this new Doom was not *quite* following that classic id design that closely to begin with -- but they haven't been following Doom like we have. Which is, again, perfectly reasonable. It doesn't mean their opinions are completely invalid.

Ultimately, the big trouble with the new Doom is that its design has been modernized in a big, BIG way, and PC gamers tend not to like modern FPS design for some very understandable reasons. Modern design tends to shoot for the lowest common denominator, which, yes, are generally console players, and console games can't make good use of mechanics like rocket jumping, strafe running, bunny hopping, etc. because the controls are very imprecise and mostly engineered for casual players.

So the new Doom has sacrificed a lot of input and mechanical depth and fidelity and this pisses off the PC crowd, who are fond of the way things used to be and had hoped Doom would stay true to its roots in this way.

It's not hard to understand. These are not "fake fans". These are fans who've been disenfranchised by the way the industry has changed in the past 15 years, and unless one happens to be a somewhat casual gamer (like me) or a rabid Doom fan (like you), one wouldn't be very fond of the way the new Doom has turned out either.

So, stop belittling your opposition, it's annoying and ridiculous and makes you look like a moron.

[Almonds]

Creative Affinity do fucking suck, though.

thing is, i'm at a cognitive dissonance type of thing here, where I'm at the point where I have actual solid evidence to be convinced that the MP has the potential to be awesome judging by the leaks and what have you, but at the same time I really want people to give ID a slap in the back of the head for even THINKING creative affinity had any affinity (no pun intended) to what even constitutes a fast paced arena shooter whatsoever.

it's like you want every mcdonalds restaurant to burn to the ground and the franchise as a whole to fuck off for even thinking putting fucking chicken on their menus was a good idea, but at the same time you can't help but feel that, while it's tasty, it ain't no KFC but it could do better with a bit of spice.

i like french kissing poptarts.

[TheMightyHeracross]

sheridan said:

Where did you get the idea that this is the actual demographic that's criticizing Doom right now?

Some Steam review quotes:

just play Quake

I don't get it... what's the bloody point of making a Doom remake... then adding multiplayer... and then not making it like any of the good arena shooters that ever existed... like Unreal Tournament... like ST Elite Force... like No One Lives Forever... or... LIKE GODFORSAKEN QUAKE.

This game is clearly supposed to sell teenage gamers the idea of an experience similar to what their parents or older siblings played in the 90s, in an arena shooter format similar to Quake 3 (you can't really spell "ID Software" and "arena-style combat" without bringing up Q3 as one of the genre).

It's like Quake 3, if Quake 3 was nothing like Quake 3.

Its a horrible, garbage version of quake.

Not to mention that "bellslammer" guy Jaxoon mentioned.

EDIT: And if it's not those guys, it's guys like the one Glaice linked to, who in the comments said to me that CA would be successful if they made an HD pack and put it over Zandronum. Because reboot = HD remake.

[ChickenOrBeef]

It's like Quake 3, if Quake 3 was nothing like Quake 3.

Not gonna lie. That made me lol.

[sheridan]

None of those quotes are that ridiculous. I made an edit to my previous post, you should go read it.

[TheWizard]

Ignoring whether you think they should or not, do you guys think they will actually change some of the shit people are complaining about in a day one patch? How possible do you think that is?

[ChickenOrBeef]

TheWizard said:

Ignoring whether you think they should or not, do you guys think they will actually change some of the shit people are complaining about in a day one patch? How possible do you think that is?

The only things they might be able to change before release:

-Weapon balancing
-Audio issues
-In-game music option


Everything else would require fundamental changes. The best they could do for those other complaints would be to simply announce that "Classic" multiplayer modes will be added for free after release.

[sheridan]

TheWizard said:

Ignoring whether you think they should or not, do you guys think they will actually change some of the shit people are complaining about in a day one patch? How possible do you think that is?

Extremely unlikely. The game's entire design has been engineered to appease a specific crowd of gamers already, and you just can't make major fundamental changes to a game's design that easily, especially within a month of it getting released to the public.

Consider if they adjusted the movement speed, for example, to make Doomguy 50% faster. Suddenly, every single ledge and gap in the ENTIRE game has to reevaluated by the designers, since you can clearly jump much farther than you could before.

You can't compensate for that and make sure the design is still good all within a month. ESPECIALLY during the month of release.

They're in the midst of shipping the final version of the game across the world already, for christ's sake!

[Jaxxoon R]

sheridan said:

it's annoying and ridiculous and makes you look like a moron.

You know what's also annoying and ridiculous and makes people look like morons? Giving reviews that amount to "WORST FUCKING GAME" instead of looking at it objectively or, if it simply must be their opinion, giving it a decent breakdown and expressing in a constructive manner the ways different mechanics or design decisions add up to creating something they don't enjoy.

[TheMightyHeracross]

sheridan said:

None of those quotes are that ridiculous.

I wish. I literally copy and pasted those from Steam.

I can't exactly agree with the Doom/Quake overlap. The movement, weapons, and physics of the two are way different.

As for casualization, I don't think this is as big of a problen as it's made out to be, since the game still plays fast and, even in spite of the loadout system, relies on item control through powerups, power weapons, and the Demon Rune. Gameplay still relies on dodging and mobility over cover. It is still, at its core, an arena shooter. It is adapted for casual audiences, but the sacrifices are not as numerous as they claim.

[sheridan]

Jaxxoon R said:

You know what's also annoying and ridiculous and makes people look like morons? Giving reviews that amount to "WORST FUCKING GAME" instead of looking at it objectively or, if it simply must be their opinion, giving it a decent breakdown and expressing in a constructive manner the ways different mechanics or design decisions add up to creating something they don't enjoy.

Sure, but if you insist on making ridiculous, mud-slinging arguments in retort, then you're all equally moronic.

Taken on the whole, I think you'll find that there are a lot of poignant and pretty well-expressed negative reviews of the new Doom. If you focus all of your attention on the badly written ones then you're wasting your time.

There's a kernel of intelligence and dare I say truth to be found in all of those reviews if you go digging for it.

[TheMightyHeracross]

I guarantee that the quality criticisms of the new Doom are few and far between- and when they do show up, I'll usually agree (loadouts, no player sounds, weapon sound issues, no music, cramped maps, etc) but mostly they consist of the "this is Halo it sucks", "this is COD it sucks", or "this is not Q3/Doom, it sucks", with no explanation (or misinformation), which is stupid.

Also, I'd like to see my "ridiculous, mudslinging" argument.

[Jaxxoon R]

sheridan said:

Sure, but if you insist on making ridiculous, mud-slinging arguments in retort, then you're all equally moronic.

Ooh okay, Mr. Angel. Wherein have I sinned and made ridiculous claims and slung the mud?

[sheridan]

Knowing what those games are, and especially what they represent to PC gamers, those comparisons are not very outlandish.

The nature of Steam reviews means that there has never been a quality requirement for any review, positive or negative, for any game, ever. But it's still a useful tool to gauge the community's overall reaction to a game when there are as many reviews for a game as there are for Doom.

People aren't stupid, even if they are oftentimes lazy.

Jaxxoon R said:

Ooh okay, Mr. Angel. Wherein have I sinned and made ridiculous claims and slung the mud?

I wasn't speaking to you at all, really. So, never?

[Jaxxoon R]

So you can't, then.

[sheridan]

Jaxxoon R said:

So you can't, then.

No I can't :-) on your way now, new friend.

[Jaxxoon R]

sheridan said:

I wasn't speaking to you at all, really. So, never?

Then why did you quote me when you said that? Simple: You lie.

sheridan said:

No I can't :-) on your way now, new friend.

Oh bite me, you condescending insufferable. Statements like that might lead someone to think you're arguing simply to be an ass, don't you think? Especially after you went at lengths to try and say that "oh no those reviews are reasonable" and after people went ahead to explain why they're not you went ahead and tried to excuse them by saying that "Steam reviews are bad anyways."

[sheridan]

I quoted you because I was responding to the statement you made, which was in response to a statement I made to TheMightyHeracross, not you. You involved yourself in this argument between us, not me, so don't twist what I say.

I'm not going to reiterate over everything I said to justify it to you again.

The entire point is, if you don't like people saying the new game is like CoD or Halo, ignore them. It's not a perfectly accurate assessment, but they have some reason to think that about it, and I think you can see it too if you try.

[TheMightyHeracross]

I do try to see similarities to COD and Halo, but outside of loadouts and XP, there's really nothing, and those two issues are not nearly enough to make the game as a whole anything like those. Most reviewers have between half an hour and two hours of gameplay, which isn't much, so I think they see those few features and judge the game mostly on that.

[Jaxxoon R]

sheridan said:

I quoted you because I was responding to the statement you made, which was in response to a statement I made to TheMightyHeracross, not you. You involved yourself in this argument between us, not me, so don't twist what I say.

Oh come on, don't act like you have some sort of special right to only allow certain people to react to what you say on an open forum. If you want to have a discussion that only Heracross can see and be involved in and no one else, than take it to PMs.

sheridan said:

the new game is like CoD or Halo

Good. It can be a better version of those two things by cannibalizing their strengths and tossing away their weaknesses. I just don't see why not completely ignoring the present is suddenly a bad thing. Those games are decent in their own right. CoD's main sin is completely degenerating the genre from something fun and cool, but that's mostly the fault of people borrowing from it to the point of being just lesser ripoffs.

[TheMightyHeracross]

To be fair, he never actually said that.

[MrGlide]

TheMightyHeracross said:

I do try to see similarities to COD and Halo, but outside of loadouts and XP, there's really nothing, and those two issues are not nearly enough to make the game as a whole anything like those.

the combat feels very much like a slightly ramped up (speed wise) and meatier Halo 3, I'm starting to see in this multiplayer mode there are plenty of tactics that work very well in halo that would help players out in this version of mp. It's the pacing and motions that give that vibe to me. I'm not saying this in a bad way as H3 was one of my favorite games of all time, I'm just noting.

[TheMightyHeracross]

Could you explain more? As someone who was a Halo fan before being a Doom fan I don't exactly feel that vibe. Then again, it's been a while, but I do remember playing it more tactically.

[MrGlide]

TheMightyHeracross said:

Could you explain more? As someone who was a Halo fan before being a Doom fan I don't exactly feel that vibe. Then again, it's been a while, but I do remember playing it more tactically.

Sure, jumping around corners will avoid (non aim-bot) headshots from the sniper. Grenade+ headshot with AR (br in halo's case) is mostly instant death. strafing+jumping (not pc strafe jumping, but more or less the strafe dance you do while jumping at the right timing trows off the opponents aim, especially headshots.) I'v not checked weather or not we can butterfly jump yet. DB fights feel alot like br battles to me, Who can out strafe each other. we jump quite high so if the other player has to look up to you to shoot you they can loose their footing and bump into stuff causing them to miss. I wouldn't say doom is slow, but It does feel as you are not very agile. The strafe acceleration (how fast you return to top speed while changing directions dramatically) feels very similer to halo 3's as well. I'v not messed around to much with the grenades so I'm not sure if the explode after; time, proximity, bounces, set time after hitting "floor".(edit) it feels like a first person fighter kinda if you get what I'm saying, there's alot of things that can happen in each encounter.

[sheridan]

There are a lot of other issues that make the comparisons and thus the criticism on the whole valid, and I've stated them already, but I do want to make it totally clear that I agree most people are not making totally fair or objective judgments about Doom. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear before.

For what it's worth, I don't think id expected most players to play the beta for more than 2 hours. That's more than enough time after all to hit the level cap in the beta.

About my accusation that you were mud-slinging earlier: I was being very critical because you were implying the opinions of Steam reviewers were less valid on a shaky basis of "Doom and Quake aren't the same game, and plus, most of the time they didn't play for very long anyway."

Ultimately, your takeaway from the game is completely subjective, no matter how "objective" you try to be. The only remarkable thing is how HUGE the number of negative reactions has become on Steam versus the positive reactions. And it happened fast, too. Most people on PC do not like this new Doom, mostly for some very interesting reasons.

Of course, I think the hate will subside given time, especially as the initial disappointment fades and the full game establishes a following among those who have less of an opinion on the usual issues, but that's the way things are right now and it's pretty weird.

That's all I have to say.

[DooM_RO]

Steam should have a mandatory minimum word count for reviews and people who break this rule should be banned from reviewing games. I'd say 2000 words minimum.

I can't take these seriously when more than half of the "reviews" are like this

Nerecomandat
0.3 ore înregistrate
Postat: 17 aprilie
This game blows. I can't believe I was actually excited to play this game.

How is this helpful to anyone?

[MrGlide]

sheridan said:

Of course, I think the hate will subside given time, especially as the initial disappointment fades and the full game establishes a following among those who have less of an opinion on the usual issues, but that's the way things are right now and it's pretty weird.

It'll be fine and once the game is out everyone will quit freaking out, all of the things players are asking for are things that either are already set up to change or things id can change quite quickly. If we can change how much health and damage a monster can do in snap map it would suprise me if we couldn't do these types of things for multiplayer. I'v stated it before But I really do feel what we're seeing right now is basically the welcome matt of Doom 4(not in a bad way, so new players can experience the game without getting dispaired so the community for this game can grow after it's been out for awile).

[Xerge]

So the "review" option is actually there as a like/dislike button, right?