3 Simple Changes that Could Save the MP Mode

[Caffeine Freak]

So while I'm not really one of those fanboys that reacts with vitriolic rage or a 'y'all are just haters' to heavy criticisms directed at a game I like (see: the mock fanboy thread I made recently), I do believe the Beta is getting more heat than it deserves. And oddly enough, I think the strongest flaws of the Beta are drawing comparisons to two starkly different types of games.

I've browsed through the Steam reviews, read posts here, read the comments sections on articles, perused the FB and Twitter threads where users are leaving feedback, and consistently, the game is getting compared to 4 different titles: Unreal Tournament, Quake, Halo, and Call of Duty. If you think about it, this is rather bizarre, since Quake and UT are radically different from both Halo and COD, and always have been. I think the comparisons to each of these franchises come from several key elements in the MP gameplay that the original Doom didn't have. Although the weapon load-out format is the most common criticism I've seen after the ones I'm about to address, I don't believe that would be much of an issue if id would focus on three key issues:

1. The player is too slow for MP mode. While I don't think the player speed is necessarily too slow for a SP campaign (there are a lot of things that will determine that), the fact is that MP mode in these types of games is meant to be a lightning-paced, caffeine-gorging romp across levels, complete with precision aimed rockets/railgun-type weapons, and hosing down enemies with rapid fire. And even though you can *kind of* do that here, it just isn't... fast enough. Period. The player cannot cover ground quickly enough. Quake, Quake 3 Arena, and the UT games both illustrate this type of gameplay beautifully. Not only would it make escape and dodging more viable, it would also raise the bar as far as accuracy goes. Even though the original Doom didn't have jump pads or anything, it had incredibly fast footwork. I don't think the new Doom MP should be matched to the relative speed of the old one, but upping the player speed by about 40% would be a great boost to gameplay. I believe the slower footwork is what is drawing much of the comparison to COD and Halo (along with the Doom marine's armor, duh), and even though you can move faster than what I remember in either of those franchises, it still isn't fast enough to set the game up there with those truly 'fast-paced' deathmatch titles. The comparisons to Quake and UT are most likely coming from mostly aesthetic choices, such as the art and visual design, as well as glowing pickups and damage displays. There's also the fact that the game has jump pads and double jumping, but I don't see these as being drawbacks, since vertical gameplay is a huge emphasis here, and I actually think it's implemented fairly well.

2. The weapons are almost all too weak. Period. This is inescapable. Probably this is where some of the comparison to Halo comes in (overshields, anyone?). Quake, UT and the original Doom all had more powerful weapons. A single direct rocket can kill you in any of those games, and if it doesn't, it will come awfully close. A close-range Flak Cannon blast in UT meant you were chunky salsa, or it meant you were a mere scratch away from death. A close-range SSG blast in Doom wasn't much different. Here, I can spoon feed three direct rockets to someone, and they might still be standing. An enemy at full health can take at least two full SSG blasts, and can absorb countless plasma/machine gun rounds before succumbing. Railgun-type weapons (such as the Vortex rifle) shouldn't take a minimum of three shots to kill an enemy at full health. All of this is unacceptable. Period. The complaints about the weapon loadout system would (I believe) become far less abundant if the weapons themselves were fixed. There's advantages to forcing a player to choose and strategize between weapon styles for a match, especially if you don't feel like the weapons themselves suck. If I forcefeed the barrels of a shotgun into an opponent's face, he'd better go down or else have some powerup that's keeping him standing.

3. Slightly related to 1, the controls need to be more tailored to a mouse and keyboard. Mouse sensitivity needs to be able to be scaled up and down. I want to be able to spin around with the flick of a wrist. Admittedly, there may be some performance issues that come along with this, I don't know. I don't know if the slower turn rate may be sparing us from texture popping or not, but given that (from what I've seen) complaints about graphics issues are virtually non-existent, I somehow doubt it. The id office, from what I recall, have been said to often play the game with controllers, and if that is the case, it definitely shows here, because the movement sensitivity has been scaled to suit that.

In summary, these changes wouldn't make the game 'just like the originals', but that's not really what I (and many others) really want. It should draw from the greatest strengths of the originals certainly---fast footwork and powerful weapons being the primary issues at hand here---and I think that if these three issues are addressed, it would help the MP mode tremendously.

[DooM_RO]

We could modify it to our liking in Snapmap. We just need to have a centralized effort so that we don't have 100 different versions of the "classic formula". We need to come to a consensus on what to take from each game and how not to make Doom a carbon copy of Quake 3. It needs to be its own thing.

Here are a few changes I propose:

1. I advise caution when changing the speed. It's like changing the tempo of a song. It could break the levels. The haste power-up speed seems to be ok, I can flow through the levels quite nicely. It should do.

2. I would make strafing just as fast as running forwards.

3. I wouldn't completely ditch loadouts. Instead I would make the player spawn with an SSG and HAR. That way the player has a fighting chance. The other weapons would be buffed accordingly and be made pickups. I actually think some weapons feel weak because of the loadout system. If the rocket launcher were just as strong as in classic Doom, why choose any other weapon if you can spawn with the rocket launcher?

4. The Gauss Cannon...it needs to go. Perks too.

5. The demon is a very iteresting idea but it needs some pretty hefty rebalancing.

6. Double jump has potential for skill-based gameplay. Jumping in the opposite direction should no longer cancel momentum.

[Zemini]

I would say Load outs are the biggest problem since the game has to balance around weaopns. With load outs every weapons needs to be "good" which makes things that hit harder suck because then everyone would pick them.

1. Remove Load outs and give everyone a starting weapon and bring back pick ups.
2. Increase Speed
3. Let players make their own 12 player games/servers/communities with their own rules and shit.
4. Nerf/Adjust demon rune and power weapons.
5. Free MP DLC, and add paid Singleplayer DLC ... lots of it.
6. Add music for MP
7. Make it more clear when you are getting hit by an enemy, such as grunts and pain sounds.
8. Weapon Physics ( IE when you get hit by a rocket, it should nock players back)
9. Remove hack modules.

[Almonds]

Zemini said:

add paid Singleplayer DLC ... lots of it.

dude

[Zemini]

Almonds said:

dude

What? You think Id should just make singleplayer content for free? Guess what, that means we get none. Some is better then ZERO. Shit costs money.

[LittleBurger]

1. As has been said by others, remove the load outs and I say start the player with that HAR, and maybe either the pistol or the combat shotgun.

2. Unsure about the speed, maybe a little quicker.

3. Less loss of momentum/speed when changing direction/in the air.

4. The Gauss Cannon, and the demon rune need to be balanced way better.

[RobotJoe]

double jump being multi directional would be nice.

[MrHofmann]

Caffeine Freak said:

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DooM_RO said:

...

Agreed.

[LittleBurger]

I'd keep the Gauss Cannon. If it is in this state then there no telling what they did to the power of the BFG. I actually sort of wonder if the BFG is more balanced (assuming they keep the slower projectile, and probably some charge up time it could be).

I say more of making it being extremely precise without that splash damage (so no more just halfheartedly aiming near/at the enemy to kill them). Probably some other things as well to tone it down some (like toning down its built in wall hack ability). Either way I think it as a weapon could be salvageable, after just being balanced way better.

Probably similar to how the demon needs to be re-balanced as well. Though having only seen the Revenant (as it was the only one in the beta), I can only assume how some of the others are (they could possibly be better balance wise).

[ChickenOrBeef]

Caffeine Freak said:

1. The player is too slow for MP mode.

That's not exactly a simple change, since it might break the maps. With that said, Haste doesn't break the maps, so I could be wrong.

Caffeine Freak said:

2. The weapons are almost all too weak.

That's because of the loadouts. You can't have players spawning with one-hit-kill weapons. If you earn them and grab them on the map, then it's fine if they're powerful. So that's why people want pickups instead of loadouts.


I agree with both of your points, but simple changes they are not. As DooM_RO alluded to though, we'll just have to build this in SnapMap.

[Caffeine Freak]

1. This isn't SP mode; every player would have the same speed, there's no other speeds that you'd need to counterbalance in order to not break the game. How exactly would increasing player speed 'break' multiplayer maps?

2. You can have the weapons more powerful than they currently are without breaking the game. That doesn't mean they need to be one-hit kill weapons, and that's where tweaking and balances come in. Double barreled shotguns and rocket launchers shouldn't take three direct hits to kill an opponent. Different weapons are suited for different playstyles. Regardless, even if it means getting rid of loadouts and reverting to a traditional pick-up style game, it's STILL a relatively simple change; it just means balancing the damage values on weapons and distributing them throughout maps.

[LittleBurger]

Caffeine Freak said:

1. This isn't SP mode; every player would have the same speed, there's no other speeds that you'd need to counterbalance in order to not break the game. How exactly would increasing player speed 'break' multiplayer maps?

2. You can have the weapons more powerful than they currently are without breaking the game. That doesn't mean they need to be one-hit kill weapons, and that's where tweaking and balances come in. Double barreled shotguns and rocket launchers shouldn't take three direct hits to kill an opponent. Different weapons are suited for different playstyles. Regardless, even if it means getting rid of loadouts and reverting to a traditional pick-up style game, it's STILL a relatively simple change; it just means balancing the damage values on weapons and distributing them throughout maps.

The SSG does at least 70 damage at close range as far as I saw (would likely have to go back to make sure), though I did use the weapon modifier (or whatever the secondary ability of the weapon is called) to tighten the spread some. It usually seems like it kills in like 2 most of the time if you are close enough. Consistency wise though, I don't know seems like it can take more now and then. Not really sure what the damage it does at point blank range is, but it does seem to be one of the most damaging weapons you could pick for your loadout.

The rocket launcher does I think 50ish or so damage on a direct hit (whenever I hit someone with it) which means it would take you two shots for someone that doesn't have the extra health like armor on them (seems like most people have at least more than 0 armor most of the time so that could be the reason why it seems so weak, also no real point in trying to use it against someone decked out in full armor).

[Silverforte]

the shotgun is very powerful currently, I think people are not taking into account meleeing right afterwards, if you are close enough, shotgun blast+ melee is basically a one hit kill on someone with full health and a little armor.

People also need to take into account that this game is heavily balanced around a one-two punch, like shooting them with the static cannon, immediately switching to the shotgun, letting em have it, and then punching them. The delay between firing, switching, and meleeing is basically nil.

[Spectre01]

People seem to be judging the game from a PC perspective when it's clearly balanced for controller and console play. This means that really fast speed and high precision aiming is a no no. Expecting an experience close to Quake is setting yourself up for disappointment. Hell, even CS:GO which has slow movement is not properly playable on consoles due to the need for really precise weapon control. And player speed being low means the weapons have to be balanced around that and can't do crazy one-shot damage. Oldschool arena FPS is dead boys. Let it RIP in peace.

[Silverforte]

Yeah I don't know how much of a perspective I can put out there considering I am a console gamer, but I do understand that for fps controller isn't as precise at kbd+mouse. Precision aiming is still possible though, just gotta get used to it.

[ChickenOrBeef]

Caffeine Freak said:

1. This isn't SP mode; every player would have the same speed, there's no other speeds that you'd need to counterbalance in order to not break the game. How exactly would increasing player speed 'break' multiplayer maps?

The spacing between all the platforms is what I'm referring to. Since you're running faster, you'll also expect to jump further. But of course, they could keep the same jump distance and just make it happen faster. I'm assuming that's what happens with Haste. So this might be a moot point.

Caffeine Freak said:

2. You can have the weapons more powerful than they currently are without breaking the game. That doesn't mean they need to be one-hit kill weapons, and that's where tweaking and balances come in. Double barreled shotguns and rocket launchers shouldn't take three direct hits to kill an opponent. Different weapons are suited for different playstyles. Regardless, even if it means getting rid of loadouts and reverting to a traditional pick-up style game, it's STILL a relatively simple change; it just means balancing the damage values on weapons and distributing them throughout maps.

Actually, if the movement speed is increased, then increasing the weapon damage a bit would work since the players will have more maneuverability. Instead of simply relying on large health, the player can evade fire more easily, which is how pure Arena shooters work after all.

[Caffeine Freak]

ChickenOrBeef said:

The spacing between all the platforms is what I'm referring to. Since you're running faster, you'll also expect to jump further. But of course, they could keep the same jump distance and just make it happen faster. I'm assuming that's what happens with Haste. So this might be a moot point.

Admittedly, I hadn't considered this aspect at first. I think faster movement would naturally mean farther jumping, although it depends on how the engine calculates things like the trajectory and distance of character jumps, as well as the weight of the player character himself.

ChickenOrBeef said:

Actually, if the movement speed is increased, then increasing the weapon damage a bit would work since the players will have more maneuverability. Instead of simply relying on large health, the player can evade fire more easily, which is how pure Arena shooters work after all.

Absolutely, that's kind of what I was alluding to when I said it would not only make escape and dodging more viable, it would also raise the bar as far as accuracy goes.

[NoirSuede]

Remember, the FoV in the beta is locked to 80 so the game would definititely feel faster when you jack it up to 100/110.

IMO, they need to fix these things before the game comes out soon or else :

1. Buff the weapon sounds
2. Add music while playing
3. Nerf the Gauss Cannon (take out the wall hack, and make the primary fire just the 150-damage rail itself without splash, to get the explosion use the secondary fire which costs 2 ammo)
4. Add damage knock back (yes it's annoying but it allows for some neat strats like damage surfing)
5. Allow us to turn off the damage numbers (like in TF2)
6. Add a mutator that turns off loadouts and just start you off with the pistol and shotgun and have everything else be a pickup.

[LittleBurger]

ChickenOrBeef said:

The spacing between all the platforms is what I'm referring to. Since you're running faster, you'll also expect to jump further. But of course, they could keep the same jump distance and just make it happen faster. I'm assuming that's what happens with Haste. So this might be a moot point.

Actually, if the movement speed is increased, then increasing the weapon damage a bit would work since the players will have more maneuverability. Instead of simply relying on large health, the player can evade fire more easily, which is how pure Arena shooters work after all.

The extra speed will mean you won't have to maybe waste the second jump to get to a ledge that is farther away yet on the same general plane. I'd be up for that, to bad that extra speed won't really transfer over into movement in the air.

I sort of wonder if some of the weakness in the weapons also has to do with how the armor in the mp is setup (I'm going to assume they didn't just straight up keep it the same for SP).

[Silverforte]

I'd be down for a general movement speed increase, maybe close to the level of the haste powerup. Right now I have to use the teleporter to really get anywhere quickly, I think it would be a good change.

[Jaxxoon R]

NoirSuede said:

5. Allow us to turn off the damage numbers (like in TF2)

[DooM_RO]

Caffeine Freak said:

1. This isn't SP mode; every player would have the same speed, there's no other speeds that you'd need to counterbalance in order to not break the game. How exactly would increasing player speed 'break' multiplayer maps?

2. You can have the weapons more powerful than they currently are without breaking the game. That doesn't mean they need to be one-hit kill weapons, and that's where tweaking and balances come in. Double barreled shotguns and rocket launchers shouldn't take three direct hits to kill an opponent. Different weapons are suited for different playstyles. Regardless, even if it means getting rid of loadouts and reverting to a traditional pick-up style game, it's STILL a relatively simple change; it just means balancing the damage values on weapons and distributing them throughout maps.

Well, the game was obviously designed with a specific speed in mind. If a player runs and jumps too fast he could miss platforms, hit walls etc. It would be the same in a game like Mario.

[Flesh420]

The Beta isn't bad, it's surprisingly quick. If they'd just take out the loadouts it'd be a great game. They shot themselves in the foot with loadouts, you can tell right off the bat they're a poor design choice for the speed they're trying to achieve. They shouldn't have advertised DOOM going "back to its roots" whilst including loadouts.

In the early days of Doom you played to Git Gud, not unlock weapons/perks.

[snapshot]

Don't forget the loadouts, They better spread the weapons around the levels and let players look for them , I don't have serious problems with it but i think having those weapons on start of round would really make the game feel boring .

Or if they decide to keep it they should at least remove few weapons from it like Plasma Rifle, Super Shotgun and Rocket Launcher and Vortex Rifle, Of course after increasing damage fo the Weak ones (Plasma and Rocket Launcher) .

[Eternal0]

I found the Doom Beta fun but there was a number of things I felt could be improved on barring the handful of balance issues I have with the game in regards to weapons, powerups, mechanics. I'll list 3 things not simply number tweaks.

1. Allow multi-directional double jumps that retain the same or close to momentum as a normal jump. At the moment a double has a noticeable slow down and only works in one direction. Making double jumps work something like TF2 scout's jumps would help with the issue many people complain about with lack of creative skill/speed base movement as well as dodging options in combat.

2. Consistent spawning of demon runes, they should shift locations to keep map interesting but the locations should be limited in number and have a consistent order. Power weapons spawn at the same place, power ups spawn at the same place, so demon runes should as well. The randomization of demon rune locations make tactical multiplayer difficult, especially with the very short timer on announcement.

3. Remove Hack Modules, or heavily modify them. Make Hack Modules something that you don't use up and are randomly given after each game in a roll of the die RPG loot mechanic type system. They should be something that are retained permanently and you can only equip 4 at a time per game. In addition there should be a way to know which hack modules other players have active so that you can adapt to it. You have no way of knowing if your opponent has the ability to see you through walls. You can tell when someone has haste or quad damage, why not this?

[NoirSuede]

DMGUYDZ64 said:

Don't forget the loadouts, They better spread the weapons around the levels and let players look for them , I don't have serious problems with it but i think having those weapons on start of round would really make the game feel boring .

Or if they decide to keep it they should at least remove few weapons from it like Plasma Rifle, Super Shotgun and Rocket Launcher and Vortex Rifle, Of course after increasing damage fo the Weak ones (Plasma and Rocket Launcher) .

Loadouts by themselves aren't that bad as they let you pick a playstyle that you like from the start, but they should only let you pick the weaker guns (Shotgun/Static Cannon/HAR/Vortex) and scatter the more powerful ones on the map (RL/SSG/Lightning Gun/Plasma) so that there's real map control involved.

[Arctangent]

NoirSuede said:

there's real map control involved.

Don't quad damage, mega health, the demon rune, big armor pickups, and the weapons that already need to be picked up accomplish that already?

[ChickenOrBeef]

Eternal0 said:

1. Allow multi-directional double jumps that retain the same or close to momentum as a normal jump. At the moment a double has a noticeable slow down and only works in one direction. Making double jumps work something like TF2 scout's jumps would help with the issue many people complain about with lack of creative skill/speed base movement as well as dodging options in combat.

I 100% agree with this. Allowing directional changes with the double jump would allow for more skill and it's something that console players can do easily with a controller, so it's not something to worry about there.

You see a lot of people trying to change direction, but can't. I especially notice that when watching people jumping around the platforms in the middle of Infernal. There are times when someone goes for the Mega Health but starts getting shot at, so they naturally try to alter their double jump and go to the left platform. Then they fall and die.

It would seem natural to have that. Definitely an odd choice.

[NoirSuede]

Arctangent said:

Don't quad damage, mega health, the demon rune, big armor pickups, and the weapons that already need to be picked up accomplish that already?

But newbies aren't really trained to memorize and anticipate the pickups right now as they already have the good guns, so with stashing away the good guns (RL/Plasma/Lightning/SSG) newbies would be more motivated to learn spawn times, and it also placates the "hurr durr loadouts" somewhat.

[CreamCheese]

DooM_RO said:

We could modify it to our liking in Snapmap. We just need to have a centralized effort so that we don't have 100 different versions of the "classic formula". We need to come to a consensus on what to take from each game and how not to make Doom a carbon copy of Quake 3. It needs to be its own thing.

Here are a few changes I propose:

1. I advise caution when changing the speed. It's like changing the tempo of a song. It could break the levels. The haste power-up speed seems to be ok, I can flow through the levels quite nicely. It should do.

2. I would make strafing just as fast as running forwards.

3. I wouldn't completely ditch loadouts. Instead I would make the player spawn with an SSG and HAR. That way the player has a fighting chance. The other weapons would be buffed accordingly and be made pickups. I actually think some weapons feel weak because of the loadout system. If the rocket launcher were just as strong as in classic Doom, why choose any other weapon if you can spawn with the rocket launcher?

4. The Gauss Cannon...it needs to go. Perks too.

5. The demon is a very iteresting idea but it needs some pretty hefty rebalancing.

6. Double jump has potential for skill-based gameplay. Jumping in the opposite direction should no longer cancel momentum.

Why not just limit which guns can be in the loadout, e.g. make it only shotgun, ssg, HAR, pistol and rocket launcher, << balance these, limit it to one weapon, and have loadouts focused on equipment combos instead. I like the idea of people creating gameplay styles out of equipment, in fact, make double jump an equipment piece. Then carefully populate the maps with pick ups, and limit it to 2 conventional guns (the ones found in loadouts), and 2 pickup weapons including nerfed power weapons, so you cant just get stacked up with shit and wreck the place, and changing weapons will still be easy on controller. Keep skins and shit though cus that shit is dope.