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kuchitsu

Good reading material on gender identities?

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Yeah, I know, this thread has a lot of "potential", but can we at least try? This stuff is just so difficult to wrap your head around. Third gender, agender, etc... Sounds like something from another world. Any articles or anything at all you can recommend on the subject? I know there are many websites made by people like that, but I feel like maybe they can be somewhat biased and overly aggressive in the way they present those ideas. I would like to see something more neutral if possible.

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Start with some of the classics. Simone de Beauvoir's "Second Sex", Arlie Hoschild's work, particularly "the managed heart", Judith Butler's "Gender Trouble." There are variety of other authors of course, but de Beauvoir and Butler I would say would be must-reads. Take a peek into Virgina Woolf's work perhaps, also hook yourself up with some of the stuff written by black feminists such as bell hooks and patricia hill collins. Germaine Greer would be another good author to look to. You should really first read some of these modern feminist texts before moving onto ways in which they have been interpreted and integrated into contemporary texts of varying nature. Classic texts I would point to some abstracted work from Jean-Jacques Rousseau, particularly "Emile", Mary Wollstonecraft's "Vindication of the Rights of the Woman" and John Stuart Mill's "Subjection of Women"

If you're inclined to read game related texts, I'm sorry-not-sorry to say most of it is garbage, but try Adrienne Shaw's "Gaming at the Edge" or Sundén, Jenny, and Malin Sveningsson's "Passionate Play" and check out works by Mia Consalvo, Jen Jenson, and Shira Chess. An older article would be Julian Dibbell's 1993 “A Rape in Cyberspace.” on Village Voice bbs iirc. The scholarly journal "Sex Roles" would probably have a lot of material you'd be interested in.

This stuff really NOT that hard to wrap your head around. People just don't feel the need to and/or don't give a shit about it, and often the way it's written, even in academia, does not lend itself to desiring to take it seriously. I often find that analyses done in feminist contexts are quite shallow and don't adequately engage with the issues at hand or are based on skimmed readings on the foundational texts. That being said there are obviously some who still grapple with these issues in a deeper way, but they are far and few between.

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Reading your post I don't know exactly what you want, but besides what Decay said, you could also take a "scientific approach" and read/study genetics and such.

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Zed said:

Reading your post I don't know exactly what you want, but besides what Decay said, you could also take a "scientific approach" and read/study genetics and such.


I can get you started. No touchy-feely crap, just real science.


No genetic link to transsexualism Plenty of related studies to further this point.

Mental health study, part 1

Mental health study, part 2

And more mental health studies...

Some of these symptoms should sound familiar to certain people...

This is a great article by a professor of psychiatry.

Oh, I guess it wasn't a magic gender wand.

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Make sure you read up on manners. Generally just be nice, don't ask invasive questions, and treat them like any other human being. Respect the pronoun they want to go by, whether it's he, she, they or something else. It really isn't hard once you get into the mindset.

Gender dysphoria is a very real thing and it's treated as a psychological and physiological affliction. It's also a cause of severe depression and anxiety, and many of those affected adversely by it often don't even realize it's the core issue at first.

Luckily, there are a number of solutions, though these are of course expensive and not without their risks - and they aren't always full-on "cures". The actual transitioning process varies from person to person. I believe they can choose to keep some of their previous gender's bodily assets, and if so, that's up to them. Don't ask them what their junk looks like or how they feel about it - unless you know that person well enough for them to generally be okay with talking about that stuff.

Most importantly, make sure to take care of them, y'know, like you would anyone else. It's a complex and deeply sensitive issue to a lot of people, and it can easily drive people to despair or suicide. The last thing people with gender issues need is mockery or for their problems to be made light of (unless they can readily joke about it, of course). Keep in mind that these issues do very deeply affect the mind and body, and are therefore probably some of the absolute most problematic issues a human being can endure.

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Don't expect the folks here to be warmed up to trans* or gender nonconforming people.

Just from past experience with recent threads on here regarding gender identity. There's a lot of transphobia.

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I've been struggling with some of this gender dysphoria stuff the past few months, and then this thread comes, what kind of coincidence is this?
(btw thanks for the links above)

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PureSlime said:

Don't expect the folks here to be warmed up to trans* or gender nonconforming people.

Just from past experience with recent threads on here regarding gender identity. There's a lot of transphobia.

There is, but there are also a lot of people who are anti-transphobia (what's the right word here? trans-positive?) here too, as well as several community members who are trans. Unfortunately as is often the case on the internet, the loudest voices are often the jerkiest ones.

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Shouldnt we be giving some options on gender related articles for the OP, instead of discussing gender?

I also have a few questions:
1- So, are you researching about gender, scientifically? (No offense)
2- Why do you require such reading material? Boredom? Curiosity?

Just asking, and unfortunately, i dont read that kind material (i didnt even know they exist!)

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plums said:

There is, but there are also a lot of people who are anti-transphobia (what's the right word here? trans-positive?) here too, as well as several community members who are trans. Unfortunately as is often the case on the internet, the loudest voices are often the jerkiest ones.

"Trans-positive" is probably what I'd say *shrugs*

Anyway, as for finding good reading material, here's some more links.

Also, in partial response to one of the things Use3D linked to, I just want to point out that sex reassignment surgery (SRS) isn't supposed to be a total 100% cure. For some it might be the most important facet, but for many (most?), it's more of an "endpoint" to the journey of transitioning. And still for others, it's more of a "nice to have". Remember, there are a lot of different experiences, and no one's will be the same; my personal transition story won't match anyone else's, I guarantee you.

From what I've noticed (and again, this isn't the case for everyone), taking hormones seems to be the biggest and most important step for most trans people when it comes to transitioning and relieving gender dysphoria.

So basically, what's necessary isn't always the same. This needs to be addressed more by the healthcare people, I think. I know I've sure ran into doctors who tried to fit me into a box.

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Voros said:

Why do you require such reading material? Boredom? Curiosity?

Recently my friend said something mildly derogatory about people that want to have more options on websites than just "male/female". I wanted to say something in their defense but realized that I actually know very little on the subject and it's difficult for me to say something substantial. I think it's kinda hard to understand the feelings of these people when I personally will never experience what they're going through every day. So I want to at least try to learn a bit about such experiences and hopefully become more understanding. Thanks for the responses so far, this is all very interesting.

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I'd take Use3D's links with a grain of salt, as he's trying to push a narrative about gender dysphoria and mental illness. The reason a lot of transgender people suffer from depression is because there's a lot of people out there who want to kill them or otherwise see them erased. It's not that big of a leap.

And you should be suspicious of anyone who links to a site with

AMERICA'S MOST
INFLUENTIAL
JOURNAL OF
RELIGION AND
PUBLIC LIFE


as a tagline. His vaguely antagonistic tone doesn't help, nor does his linking to a 12-year-old (!) study -- a study from a time when doctors were still promoting gay conversion therapy.

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Flesh420 said:

1) In most sports, this would be a disqualifying condition automatically, because male physiology would destroy any female competition. In something as physical as MMA, it seems doubly ridiculous, so I'd say it's because the sport itself has underdeveloped rules more than anything. Not even an olympic competition, bah. In athletics a few years ago, there was a huge uproar about Caster Semenya, but she wasn't banned from competing with females in the end, supposedly for being intersex, not male.
2) This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. What's your angle?

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Jimmy pretty much hit the nail on the head.
It does not matter what your gender is, nor who you are on the outside. It is who you are on the inside. ;)

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The funny thing is OP is probably better off going to Tumblr and asking his question there then he is here. Just don't be surprised if you get one that thinks your automatically an enemy for asking too many questions or some shit.

E: And of course I post just as an admin hell's a bunch of posts, rofl.

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what i dont get is how a person can "self assign" their gender identity.

"identity: the fact of being what a person or thing is."

we as humans dont have the luxuary of deciding everything for ourselves. some things just are. this is how we are able to have a consistant concept of reality that we can use as a basis for mutual exchange. if we are all free the refute the irrefutable, society is going to cease to function. and become much less coherent and efficient in the interim.

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CARRiON said:

E: And of course I post just as an admin hell's a bunch of posts, rofl.


You see CARRiON, we at Doomworld explicitly teach our subjects to not color outside of the FUCKING LINES, cunt.

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OMG DOOMWORLD PROMOTES GENDER THEORY!!!1!11!

NOW I QUIT FROM DOOM BCOZ IS AGAINST THE NATURAL FAMILY AND AGAINST JESOOOS!!!!1!!111!

YOU DISCOVERED YOURSELVES FINALLY FOR WHAT YOU REALLY ARE, A HIDDEN CELL CREATED FROM THE GAYSTAPO ILLUMINATI GENDER THEORY LOBBY MADE FOR EXTERMINATE THE MANLY ETHEROSEXUAL MEN AND WOMEN FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH, HERE'S HOW: trustmeimnotaclickbaitingsite.com/doomworldilluminatigaylobbyconfirmed

BUT NOT BEFORE BITCHING AROUND IN SOME BIGOT CATHOLIC FACEBOOK PAGE ABOUT THIS FACT WITH A LOTS OF OTHER LOWLIFES LIKE ME OF THIS INCRECIOUS FACT GOD DAMMIT!

[\sarcasm]

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Cyanosis said:

You see CARRiON, we at Doomworld explicitly teach our subjects to not color outside of the FUCKING LINES, cunt.

Not a fan of beating a guy when he's down, but I have to laugh at the idea of vocally enforcing rigid, traditional gender identities as "colouring outside the lines."

also lol walter.

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dethtoll said:

His vaguely antagonistic tone doesn't help, nor does his linking to a 12-year-old (!) study -- a study from a time when doctors were still promoting gay conversion therapy.


This thread's gonna be on its way to post hell probably just out of folks coming in here because transgender people, for whatever reason, really piss them off.

EDIT: I just read the posts that got sent to hell. Good lord, thank god I missed that disaster.

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plums said:

There is, but there are also a lot of people who are anti-transphobia (what's the right word here? trans-positive?) here too, as well as several community members who are trans. Unfortunately as is often the case on the internet, the loudest voices are often the jerkiest ones.

Actually, on the real Doomworld/vb, I haven't had an issue with anyone in the slightest (and, there is even a timeline somewhere showing the progress, I think..). I've been a part of this community for a long time now, and I'm happy and proud to say it's one of the most tolerable and respectful on the internets.

The Doomworld group on FB, however, is pure garbage (well, not all of it or its members, and the admin is finally taking some sort of quicker action against it), and just a classic example of (kids, mostly) childish and a lack of understanding (which is fine, I just removed myself from the situation - case closed). Mark my words that at least some of them use 3DGE, so I win in any case...their reactions after they found that out and GTFO quietly changed in any event ;-)


Now, in regards to the "humor" and comments...
tl;dr, just life experiences and personal stuff encapsulated below

Spoiler

IRL, I really don't care about shit like this (though, thankfully the admins here are quick to squash it and not draw it out). Here in California, if someone has a problem, you just ball up your fists and get in their face (works wonders - called S.Y.G.). I have never encountered an issue personally (nowadays, nobody can tell from my appearance anyways - more compliments than anything-, and I have a daughter), except a few incidents where people *thought* they could push me around. Everyone was rolling after the fact (just got beat down by a chick in a dress!!)...haha ^_^

I don't pay any mind or attention to movements though - while sad that shit happens (read: no matter what gender, race, or religion et all, it's just called "LIFE"), it does no good to be hysterical or outspoken in a negative or overly-sensitive way (makes us look worse IMO). If someone fucks with me or a friend/acquaintance/random, they 100% of the time expect no retaliation, and when they do, they are quick to back off. I take nobody's bullshit IRL (or at least, I used to before my daughter Violet was born), but I'm quick to squash it, and even gained a few friends from said phobia. I only take action when necessary, and I just don't give a fuck regardless. As long as nobody is physically being hurt or threatened (myself included), people can say whatever the hell they want. Unless it's about Violet. Then I will get a little cray.

I guess I'm just different, though. I've had some trans people unfriend me over funny memes or comments related to "our kind", but honestly, transitioning has not changed my love of slightly-offensive comedy, because I know I possess a genuinely kind heart. Comedy is comedy. Like Matt Stone and Trey Parker say, "We are equal opportunity offenders", which is why I *love* shows like South Park, despite them ripping on trans people (read outside the lines: everyone). I feel there is still a few people who have not quite grasped that concept and often time take things to an extreme level when they get "triggered". READ: This does *not* equal intentional "slurring", "tastelessness", or "hate" in the slightest, because people often get them confused..

But honestly, the older I get, the less I care about crap like that. It's not like those people pay my bills, bathe my daughter, or do my job for me. I have my Violet who is the absolute love of my life, my friends/family, a good job, 3DGE, a roof and a few vehicles - people can say whatever the hell they want about me. Because hey - at least someone is thinking about me ^_^ ;)

Anyways, hope this sort of lightens the mood. Can't fault people who want to learn.

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Chu said:

spoiler stuff


Exactly my point, trans/gay folks that don't get instantly pissed off or don't look to be offended just seems so rare sometimes, hell people in general that don't look to be offended seems rare now. I don't have a problem with you defending yourself at all, hell I knock some heads around all the same when someone gets in my face and doesn't respect my space or safety, obviously those people threatened your life, and that calls for action. But I'm the same way humor wise, someone can call me a cocksucking faggot all day and mean it with the most absolute hatred and I'd probably be cracking up because it's just so tryhard piss you off mode.

That tumblr joke or whatever you want to call it? Who honestly gets offended THAT easily? All he did was post a link to tumblr. The "offensiveness" was so mild it might as well not even be there at all. I swear some people don't have enough to worry about in their lives, so they're looking for an excuse to feel offended.

btw Violet is an awesome name and I instantly think of The Birthday Massacre.

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Would you consider it transphobic to sympathize with those individuals but, at the same time, think that supporting their skewed mental state is doing them far more harm in the long run?

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MetroidJunkie said:

Would you consider it transphobic to sympathize with those individuals but, at the same time, think that supporting their skewed mental state is doing them far more harm in the long run?


Being trans is not a skewed mental state.

Goodness, what is so wrong with just letting other people be who they feel they are? It's not hurting anyone.

CARRiON said:

Exactly my point, trans/gay folks that don't get instantly pissed off or don't look to be offended just seems so rare sometimes


Wow. It's almost like being consistently discriminated against for being who you are is something people get rather upset about. Who would've thought?

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CARRiON said:

Exactly my point, trans/gay folks that don't get instantly pissed off or don't look to be offended just seems so rare sometimes, hell people in general that don't look to be offended seems rare now.

Yeah, a lot of trans* people are very militant, and when I've spoken up about that, I get ostracized myself. Many seem to feel that because things can be so dangerous for us, we've got a right to be angry. Well sure, we do have a right to be angry, but we have to go about it differently. Like, stand up, but do so in a more compassionate, non-militant way. Otherwise, you lower yourself to the same position of whoever is offending you.

Just my two cents. I've also done so much aikido, that going about things like this has just sorta permeated my being :-P

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PureSlime said:

Wow. It's almost like being consistently discriminated against for being who you are is something people get rather upset about. Who would've thought?


Wow, it's almost like being obnoxious and snobby and not acting like an adult about that isn't the way to go about it, and just makes even more people not care for you or your mental/gender/sexuality issues and paints a negative image of it all.

Who would've thought?

yukib1t said:

Yeah, a lot of trans* people are very militant, and when I've spoken up about that, I get ostracized myself. Many seem to feel that because things can be so dangerous for us, we've got a right to be angry. Well sure, we do have a right to be angry, but we have to go about it differently. Like, stand up, but do so in a more compassionate, non-militant way. Otherwise, you lower yourself to the same position of whoever is offending you.


Hey, I get it, trans people right now are a target. They have the right to defend themselves. Everyone does. Especially if their life is on the line.

I'm glad to see you and Chu here are both much more adult and realistic about it, because it really does drag your rights through the mud when a vocal bunch get triggered by merely looking in their direction or expressing neutral respect towards them. Which is why I kinda sympathize with Darknation's rant, even if he was pretty... colorful about it.

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PureSlime said:

Goodness, what is so wrong with just letting other people be who they feel they are? It's not hurting anyone.


I'm not so sure about that, considering the suicide rates and you can't just chalk it up to bullying or oppression, it's unusually high even taking that into account.

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