I want to ask unusual permission about using AV map...

[Dexiaz]

Hello, community!

I have a really weird question which also uncomfortable and inconvenient for me, but I feel by heart that I must to do it...

But first, I should explain my motivation via small story...

2 weeks ago I saw a dream about (almost) classic Doom. It was an Alien Vendetta map "Misri Halek" in PSX Doom style with dark colored sectors, dark music (remake of the original theme) and new enemies. Like in "Threshold of Pain" mod by scalliano.

I found this "rendition" so cool that I wanted to do it in real life someday. But, as you can see, I've got a really serious problems about this...

Greatly respected author of this map - Kim André Malde (aka Mutator) passed away unexpectedly on July 7, 2012. This fact shocked me to the marrow of my bones, I really liked his maps... I was really sad.

In addition, in readme file we can see this:

Authors may NOT use these levels as a base to build additional levels.

I understand, re-using some works in most cases are bad idea and moveton act, but I wanted to ask special permission to do it with Map 20. But...I can't get permission by Kim by known reasons.

So, my question is:
Can I re-use this map to made a "memorial" wad with my "dream" idea or it's impossible due to moral reasons?

If asnwer is "no", I'll understand. But I just want to know...
And I'm sorry if this post makes obnoxiously feelings, I never wanted to insult anyone.

[scifista42]

Just wait 66 more years before his copyright on the map expires.

[Spectre01]

I doubt you'll be taken to court over a clause in the text file. Do as you wish m8.

[kuchitsu]

Are you going to edit the map or remake it from scratch? The latter is probably OK as long as you don't get too close to the original vertex placement and everything. Many people have made remakes of various levels. In fact, TimeOfDeath made a remake of the starting area back in 2010: https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/a-c/av20mem

[Dexiaz]

Just wait 66 more years before his copyright on the map expires.

Well, I think I'll forget about this idea after 66 years...

I doubt you'll be taken to court over a clause in the text file. Do as you wish m8.

Well, you're technically right, but it's a question of morality and honesty...

Are you going to edit the map or remake it from scratch?

Edit. Possibly add few new rooms, but not making the whole map from scratch.

[Maes]

As long as you don't try submitting it to idgames, you'll be alright.

[Dexiaz]

Maes said:

As long as you don't try submitting it to idgames, you'll be alright.

Ok, thank you for this info. I just never wanted submit any mod to idgames (yeah, mostly they are renditions like PSX The Lost Levels or DooD, but I'm working with few new maps and I won't to upload them, I just doesn't find it necessary [thoughts like "if I've uploaded it to idgames so I can count this mod "finished"])

[Olroda]

Why not make a *similar* map as a tribute to it instead, then?

[Azuruish]

Maybe laziness? Uhhh....

[Vorpal]

DeXiaZ said:

Hello, community!

I have a really weird question which also uncomfortable and inconvenient for me, but I feel by heart that I must to do it...

But first, I should explain my motivation via small story...

2 weeks ago I saw a dream about (almost) classic Doom. It was an Alien Vendetta map "Misri Halek" in PSX Doom style with dark colored sectors, dark music (remake of the original theme) and new enemies. Like in "Threshold of Pain" mod by scalliano.

I found this "rendition" so cool that I wanted to do it in real life someday. But, as you can see, I've got a really serious problems about this...

Greatly respected author of this map - Kim André Malde (aka Mutator) passed away unexpectedly on July 7, 2012. This fact shocked me to the marrow of my bones, I really liked his maps... I was really sad.

In addition, in readme file we can see this:
I understand, re-using some works in most cases are bad idea and moveton act, but I wanted to ask special permission to do it with Map 20. But...I can't get permission by Kim by known reasons.

So, my question is:
Can I re-use this map to made a "memorial" wad with my "dream" idea or it's impossible due to moral reasons?

If asnwer is "no", I'll understand. But I just want to know...
And I'm sorry if this post makes obnoxiously feelings, I never wanted to insult anyone.

Kim's loss weighs heavy in my mind too, even years later. He was able to conjure an atmosphere like few others, and the feelings we got running around those virtual spaces is like an emotional connection or a window into the author's mind. Thanks for your kind words about him!

As far as permission to do your own version of the map goes, there is a chance that we'd give you the green light to go ahead with it, I'll definitely point Anders and Martin to this thread, as founders of the project and personal friends of Kim they'll be able to give a more valid permission than I could.

That said, if it was me I might be inclined to say no, even though I am very much pro-editing other peoples' maps as long as credit is given. For two simple reasons: (1) the map is fucking huge and I'd doubt anyone to have the stamina to finish any sort of "remix", so I'd say no to spare your sanity (2) With Kim's loss the map stands as our own (as the doom community) monument to his life, so to mess with the map stirs up some uneasy emotions, like we may be disrespecting him somehow.

My suggestion would be to perhaps attempt your vision on some small area of the map, and you might be able to show the screenshots which might influence a decision in your favor. Or, if making a "memorial" in map form was your main goal, I've done exactly that in some of my modern maps. I've never told anybody and they're not labelled but I mean, I've made monuments within my maps where I've dedicated them to the memory of some special people. e.g. I made an elaborate fountain in a map and it's my own private spot to remember Espi.

[Dexiaz]

Olroda said:

Why not make a *similar* map as a tribute to it instead, then?

Azuruish said:

Maybe laziness? Uhhh....

Laziness? And yes and no.

Remember Resident Evil games? The Spencer's Mansion - the main location of Resident evil 1/Remake/Remaster games. And also we can see the same Mansion in Resident Evil: Code Veronica. Well...same...sometimes. Veronica's Mansion looks like a parody or a rebuilded map by a memory. Some fans liked it because it's "Wow, it's so nostalgic!". Me neither. Why? Because we can see only main hall where you can go only right and see strange remake of next room. Moreover, other Veronica's Mansion rooms aren't even "remaked" - just bunch of random locations with similar wall textures. And they doesn't look interesting. I think, level designers tried to do something new and they "did". But failed because their new Mansion didn't make such emotions like RE1 (1996) Mansion. As we can remember, few years later (2002) Capcom did a Resident Evil Remake with updated mansion with dark and creepy atmosphere and it's awesome. And I want to make something like this - not a "recreated" from scratch, just "updated".

@Vorpal, thank you very much for reply! Your idea seems really good! I'll do a small demonstration soon, so we can understand - is it a good idea or not

[vadrig4r]

RE mansion was a lot to live up to for a lot of reasons in fairness.

[printz]

Yeah, tribute sounds best. But that requires you to be skilled in mapping.

How about a "patch" wad that doesn't remake the map? Just build over it.

[40oz]

Those copyright clauses dont stop you from modifying the map for your own interests. You could make it without intent to distribute it. You could even share screenshots of it. You could privately share the map directly to people who want it or the screenshots could then be used to sway people into allowing you to share the map publicly.

I'd refrain from using /idgames to host your map. I'd also refrain from sharing the map after you've completed it and instead make a thread to show your work in progress. Worst case scenario you can keep it for your own entertainment.

[Andy Johnsen]

Hi DeXiaZ!

I see Brad / Vorpal already weighed in here, but I'll just add a few lines as well. First and foremost, I appreciate that you had the level minded approach of posting about this and asking instead of just going ahead - I know Kim would have appreciated that gesture as well.

Like 40oz mentioned already, everyone is free to do whatever they like as long as it's not intended to be a publicly available edited version of the original map.

However, as far as releasing an edited version that directly utilize parts of the original though, this does not sit well with me for a few reasons. For one, Map 20 in Alien Vendetta is very much a part of Maldes legacy, and I was fortunate enough to be sitting more or less next to him when he designed most parts of the map, testing stuff, giving feedback, motivation and what not. A lot of his time and effort went into it, and it still stands as a pretty unique vanilla map.

I'm not a huge fan of remakes and tribute maps in general, but everyone who have been mapping for a while have taken inspiration directly or indirectly from others; and that is ok.

When inspiration crosses the line into direct remakes though (and it goes beyond just having a fun Easter egg "tribute" element from another map) they tend to lose me; originality will always beat that.

If you're inspired by the map, I would rather suggest you expand on the thematic ideas of it and make your own creation from scratch, with something we have not seen already. One of the windows near the exit of Kims pyramide give you a view towards two distant structures. Why not base your map on the idea that you're in one of those and looking back at Misri Halek, for instance. That'd be a cool tribute, and you could expand on the Egyptian theme of the original. A direct edit of the map though, would not be in my interest and I'm fairly sure Kim would have not wanted that either.

Thank you again for the nice words, and the interest in the map!

[Vorpal]

Well that settles it! I'm glad DeXiaZ asked, because as a result we have a clear view on the permissions on Kim's maps.

Still, I'd be interested to see what you are capable of, I think it's an interesting idea to merge the psx doom atmosphere with something in the Misri Halek theme. I believe you could work much faster with an original creation too, rather than attempt to unravel the quirks and complexities of such a colossal map.

Also, Andy, get on irc damn it

[Dexiaz]

Thanks to everyone for reply! About making new map with unaccessable outside area - I wanted to do it in this remake map.

Anyway, as I can see, everyone who posted here rejects this idea about working with original map. So I think it will be wise to forget about this idea.

But anyway, some time ago I said that I'll show you how I want to "patch/update" this map. So, here we go:




It's a really small demonstration but I think those pictures explains everything.

[Olroda]

DeXiaZ said:

It's a really small demonstration but I think those pictures explains everything.

They sure do, and I can only agree with what Vorpal typed:

Vorpal said:

I think it's an interesting idea to merge the psx doom atmosphere with something in the Misri Halek theme.

You seem adamant to not pursue the tribute / inspiration route though, which is a shame, because I think that such a concept has lots of potential.

[Dexiaz]

Ok, ok, I've got it. Forget about everything I said. I'm sorry that I've started this thread, because it's a (my) shame in relation to Kim. I did a big mistake, this thread can be closed now. Again sorry about this.

[joe-ilya]

DeXiaZ said:

this thread can be closed now.

You can lock it yourself, you know.

[Dexiaz]

joe-ilya said:

You can lock it yourself, you know.

Not really:

You do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

[Avoozl]

I guess they recently changed it so you can no longer close your own posts.

Edit: I just tested it with an older post of mine and it still works.