How often should shotgun put enemies in pain state?

[PsychoGoatee]

I notice that I've never had a Hell Knight or Baron of Hell in pain state. I just shoot them with the shotgun repeatedly until they die, never getting any pain state. And I really only seem to notice pain state with enemies in general if I'm hitting them with a chaingun or plasma.

Could this be a bug with the source port I'm using, gzdoom devbuild 2.2pre-605? How often would you say shooting a Hell Knight with a shotgun would cause a pain state? And any other info about pain states in general? In another topic somebody mentioned that Hell Knights do have pain states from shotgun blasts, so I started testing. Thanks.

[Rayziik]

Every enemy has it's own pain chance, which determines the likeliness of it entering it's pain state. Weapon type used does not change the chance in anyway (at least in Vanilla behavior). The larger enemies like the Baron and Knight have lower pain chances than say an Imp. I might be wrong, but off the top of my head I think the Baron pain chance is 50/255 and the Imp's is 200/255. The shotgun fires 7 pellets at once, so each pellet has a chance to trigger the pain state. The SSG fires 20 at once, and it's probably less common to not pain an enemy when using it.

The rapid fire nature of the chaingub and plasma gun give them mores subsequent chances to pain an enemy, which can make the pain state much more noticeable if it's triggered repeatedly. Even then, most pain states only last for fractions of a second.

[PsychoGoatee]

Ah, thanks. Turns out Hell Knight does get pain state for me, I just pretty much almost can't see it. I guess whenever I hear their moan sound it's the pain state? Revenant for example is much more noticeable, the way they change their posture when hit.

What happened was when fighting one in an arena full of monsters making sounds, since I couldn't discern the sound and I pretty much can't see the pain state on Hell Knight, it's only noticeable one on one.

[VGamingJunkie]

The groan is typically them entering their pain state, however briefly. Ultimate Doom's E3 demo shows a Baron getting stunned by the shotgun when it was about to attack.

[PsychoGoatee]

Do Archvile's have a very low hitstun/pain state chance? I notice blasting a Revenant with a chaingun seems to shut down their attacks, but nothing seems to stop an Archvile from lighting me on fire unless I seek cover.

edit: Maybe I'm just having weird luck. First time I tested it I never saw painstate on Archvile. Second time I saw it a few times. Also, maybe they can't be stopped once they start the fire attack animation?

[Doomkid]

As a general rule of thumb, the bigger and meatier an enemy is, the lower their pain chance is. I'm sure there would be a list of each enemy's health and pain chance on the wiki.

[AD_79]

Doomkid said:

I'm sure there would be a list of each enemy's health and pain chance on the wiki.

There is indeed a page for it.

[joe-ilya]

Doomkid said:

As a general rule of thumb, the bigger and meatier an enemy is, the lower their pain chance is. I'm sure there would be a list of each enemy's health and pain chance on the wiki.

Arachnotrons have super-high pain chance, you can shoot it with a pistol and it will flinch every pellet.

[scifista42]

PsychoGoatee said:

Also, maybe they can't be stopped once they start the fire attack animation?

Nope. They can be pained anytime while alive.

[TheMightyHeracross]

PsychoGoatee said:

Do Archvile's have a very low hitstun/pain state chance? I notice blasting a Revenant with a chaingun seems to shut down their attacks, but nothing seems to stop an Archvile from lighting me on fire unless I seek cover.

edit: Maybe I'm just having weird luck. First time I tested it I never saw painstate on Archvile. Second time I saw it a few times. Also, maybe they can't be stopped once they start the fire attack animation?

Pain chance of 10/255 for Viles (3.13%), which is below even the Cyberdemon.

[Spectre01]

I found a point blank SSG shot stuns the Vile almost half the time. Also firing a plasma stream while he's charging his attack has a decent chance of interrupting him.

[VGamingJunkie]

joe-ilya said:

Arachnotrons have super-high pain chance, you can shoot it with a pistol and it will flinch every pellet.

Ironically making rapid fire weapons its ultimate weakness. I assume the chainsaw works equally well?

[Technician]

joe-ilya said:

Arachnotrons have super-high pain chance, you can shoot it with a pistol and it will flinch every pellet.

Ironic since brains don't feel pain.

[Rayziik]

MetroidJunkie said:

Ironically making rapid fire weapons its ultimate weakness. I assume the chainsaw works equally well?

IF you can manage to hit it reliably with the chainsaw it would work great. However, vanilla doom doesn't like how big the arachnotron's body is so it's hard for the chainsaw to 'lock-on' just right.

[BrainMuncher]

Technician said:

Ironic since brains don't feel pain.

Yeah but poking someone right in their exposed brain would probably cause them to twitch a bit.

[MistAche]

Doomkid said:

As a general rule of thumb, the bigger and meatier an enemy is, the lower their pain chance is. I'm sure there would be a list of each enemy's health and pain chance on the wiki.

Yeah except chaingunners... can never get those fuckers to stop.

[Gothic Box]

joe-ilya said:

Arachnotrons have super-high pain chance, you can shoot it with a pistol and it will flinch every pellet.

Maybe the pistol isn't actually a pistol, it's a BB gun.

[VGamingJunkie]

MistAche said:

Yeah except chaingunners... can never get those fuckers to stop.

Try using the chaingun against them, it works pretty damn well. It only appears like they're unstoppable because, when they're not in a pain state and have line of sight, it is a nonstop barrage.

[vtm]

MetroidJunkie said:

Ironically making rapid fire weapons its ultimate weakness.

Yeah, chaingunners can beat them pretty easily.

[Olroda]

Gothic Box said:

Maybe the pistol isn't actually a pistol, it's a BB gun.

It certainly feels like it is when you're using it on hellspawn, but consider how effective it is against (former) humans. It takes only a few (2-6 shots) to kill zombiemen and sergeants. I'd say that it is fairly realistic when compared to the effectiveness of an actual pistol against a human target. Of course, Our Hero swallows 20-7 (on average 10) shots before taking a dirtnap, but he's just that tough and determined!

[shotfan]

Olroda said:

It certainly feels like it is when you're using it on hellspawn, but consider how effective it is against (former) humans. It takes only a few (2-6 shots) to kill zombiemen and sergeants. I'd say that it is fairly realistic when compared to the effectiveness of an actual pistol against a human target. Of course, Our Hero swallows 20-7 (on average 10) shots before taking a dirtnap, but he's just that tough and determined!

There are two other uncertainties in estimating pistol's real power. First, we do not know what ammunition exactly is it firing (most probably 9mm Parabellum, since it is modeled after Beretta 92). Second, the former humans may got weakened during zombification process, so maybe we are fighting essentially expendable fodder made by demons the cheapest way possible - by converting enemy ranks into their own. Maybe it is so that we are using a really weak pistol (maybe even caseless? IT IS THE FUTURE!) against weak targets, and the Doomguy is the only healthy human in this whole mess. No way to ascertain. (still, the fact that Sergeants fire less pellets than you is just absurd, since most of time you are using one of the shotguns acquired from them)
Also, the shot placement is at least as important (if not even more) than bullets' caliber and kinetic energy. This fact can explain why damage values are pseudo-randomized, and I like that feature in Doom.

[VGamingJunkie]

Ever heard of story gameplay segregation? The sargent not firing as many pellets as you has to do with mercy because they can still do quite a lot of damage if they catch you off guard. You want them to fire MORE pellets?

[scifista42]

If the player's shotgun fired only 3 pellets just like the Sergeant's shotgun, it would be well balanced with the pistol, and combat against KDITD enemies alone could get a nicely working and even plausibly feeling balance into it, specially if chaingun and rocket launcher were nerfed as well.

[VGamingJunkie]

I'm pretty sure the pistol is just meant to be the starter weapon, replaceable as soon as you got something better. Much like the pistol from Wolfenstein 3D. Not every weapon has to be usable, most people aren't going to use the fist unless they're 100% out of ammo or they found a Berserk Pack and can catch enemies off guard.

[shotfan]

MetroidJunkie said:

Ever heard of story gameplay segregation? The sargent not firing as many pellets as you has to do with mercy because they can still do quite a lot of damage if they catch you off guard. You want them to fire MORE pellets?

You mean the diegetic levels? Of course I did. It is just that I prefer the games I play to make sense mechanics-wise. I do not have to wish to have Sergeants to fire more metal balls at me, since they already do in Brutal Doom and its affilliated mods (but they still fire less pellets - eight vs. ten from player's shotgun. Oh well, I will have to mod it myself eventually).

scifista42 said:

If the player's shotgun fired only 3 pellets just like the Sergeant's shotgun, it would be well balanced with the pistol, and combat against KDITD enemies alone could get a nicely working and even plausibly feeling balance into it, specially if chaingun and rocket launcher were nerfed as well.

Disagree. It would make whole arsenal of the first episode really s***** in usage and feeling. 3 pellets per shotgun shot would probably make shotgun's DPS equal with the pistol - absurd and pointless. The chaingun already fires very slow for a rotary gun. Rocket launcher is just right with its damage and splash radius, but rockets are slow. (actually the chainsaw makes the least sense as a weapon, but I would prefer to not dwell into that can of worms)
I prefer to make weapons intuitive instead of balanced. I abhor excessive balancing, since it forces to make weapons artifically limited (like the 3 pellets shots given here, burst-fire only Battle Rifle from Halo, very scarce ammo for more powerful guns, or miniguns that have rate of fire comparable to SMGs). It is just bullshit to me. I can understand it in multiplayer games (like in Quake 3), but not in singleplayer. For example, when I grab a shotgun, I expect it to fire at least ten pellets, be accurate to at least 50 meters and take down Zombies and Imps in one shot, not in two-three. This what I mean by "intuitive" here - the weapon's performance ingame can be derived from their real world functioning.
(I do not mean here, however, to make weapons realistic as much as possible. I do not want a mil-sim. I mean that relative performance between given weapons to be comparable to their differences in real world. This makes for a weapon design that is naturally expected, consequently - intuitive).

MetroidJunkie said:

I'm pretty sure the pistol is just meant to be the starter weapon, replaceable as soon as you got something better. Much like the pistol from Wolfenstein 3D. Not every weapon has to be usable, most people aren't going to use the fist unless they're 100% out of ammo or they found a Berserk Pack and can catch enemies off guard.

If the weapon is unusable, is it weapon at all? I think you meant "always usable". But besides, I think every weapon should have its niche where it performs the best. What constitutes a niche are aplenty - range, number of enemies, available space, required precision, and so on. The pistol should be a emergency weapon when you are low on ammo. But Vanilla Doom pistol is pretty bad even in this role (mainly because of its absymal rate of fire). Thankfully, there is Project Brutality, where the pistol is an actual semiautomatic, can be dual wielded and even used for silent kills with a suppressor (PB has some problems with its arsenal - like overpowered HMG or Hell Rifle, or rather similar rifle weapons - but the slot 2 weapons, including the pistol, are done well).

[VGamingJunkie]

They should have made the fist a silent weapon, would have made stealth kills more interesting. Especially with the Berserk Pack.

[shotfan]

It is already in Brutal Doom. You can also snap the necks of Former Humans and Imps if you approach them silently from behind (they often turn on you just before you punch them, but if you attack fast enough you can still break their necks before they retaliate). The suppressed pistol itself is a good option against unaware, distant weaker enemies (some later levels in Doom II have single Former Humans placed in corridors not far from bigger monsters) or to set off barrels stealthy.

[Gothic Box]

MetroidJunkie said:

They should have made the fist a silent weapon, would have made stealth kills more interesting. Especially with the Berserk Pack.

maybe it was an engine limitation?

shotfan said:

It is already in Brutal Doom. You can also snap the necks of Former Humans and Imps if you approach them silently from behind (they often turn on you just before you punch them, but if you attack fast enough you can still break their necks before they retaliate). The suppressed pistol itself is a good option against unaware, distant weaker enemies (some later levels in Doom II have single Former Humans placed in corridors not far from bigger monsters) or to set off barrels stealthy.

shhhhhh, we don't talk about brutal doom.

[VGamingJunkie]

An engine limitation to make a weapon NOT alert enemies? I seriously doubt that.

[scifista42]

They literally made the engine while making Doom. I'm sure they could have relatively easily implemented an exceptional behavior for one weapon to make it not alert monsters (using one additional global variable and one additional if/else block at most). They just didn't have the idea or didn't care or didn't want it.