Retribution: Part I (First ever WAD COMPLETE!)

[DooM_RO]

Hello Doomworld!

I have been working for a very long time on my very first WAD and modding project. I decided to split the WAD in 3 maps because I wanted to release something. The first map is complete, the second is around 50% complete and the third map, final map hasn't entered production yet.

It is a huge, non-linear map for built for Doom 1 (E2M8) with a focus on exploration and atmosphere. It took me FOREVER to make and I worked really hard on this. I really hope you will enjoy it! I used Doom 1 because I wanted this to be made using Vanilla-only resources (with music being the only exception) and Doom 2 lacks a lot of Doom 1 textures. It was designed for Pistol start.

Here is the WAD

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom/Ports/p-r/retrbtn

And here are a few screenshots. If you want, I can post screenshots of my second map as well, which is set in Hell.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

Is it compatible with GZDoom?

[DooM_RO]

Of course!

[Breezeep]

What compatibility is this map in?

[JohnnyTheWolf]

I cannot get it to work. :(

I tried creating a shortcut with the -file command and even drag and dropping on zdoom.exe, to no avail.

[DooM_RO]

Breezeep said:

What compatibility is this map in?

Limit-removing. Tested in PrBoom+, GlBoom+, ZDoom and GZDoom.

EDIT:

Forgot to mention it's for E2M8. Sorry, I'm tired.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

Is there a way to set the game so it only loads the custom map?

[DooM_RO]

JohnnyTheWolf said:

Is there a way to set the game so it only loads the custom map?

I don't know. Not in vanilla anyway. Just type IDCLEV E2M8. It was designed for Pistol start anyway.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

I guess I will wait until you figure out a more convenient way to play your map. :(

[DooM_RO]

JohnnyTheWolf said:

I guess I will wait until you figure out a more convenient way to play your map. :(

Sorry, it's Vanilla-only. I don't think it's possible to just jump to E2M8. Either way, all you need to do is warp to the level.

Has anyone played it yet? I would really like to hear your thoughts.

[MrGlide]

I'll make a demo tonight, looks good so far. I like the floor texture drawings I'm seeing, this map looks to be very big. @ Johny or anyone else having trouble for zdoom, type ` for console commands, then type "map E2M8" it will take you there.

[DooM_RO]

MrGlide said:

I'll make a demo tonight, looks good so far. I like the floor texture drawings I'm seeing, this map looks to be very big. @ Johny or anyone else having trouble for zdoom, type ` for console commands, then type "map E2M8" it will take you there.

Thank you! All I want is people to play it and tell me what they think.

[MrGlide]

Ok, I'm scrubby and have a hard time getting demos working right. I didn't make it all the way through(got to the brown tech maze and got pinched between baron and pinkie and died very quick) Map is Very Big. I personally I'm not found of huge maps, they take a long time to complete even if you know where your going. You put a crazy amount of work into this, to the point it really could be multible maps easily. Over all I did like the layout and everything felt fair, but I will note it played like a newer iwad with lots of monsters but the difficulty was quite lax, there is alot of ammo. With the berzerk I was able to accumulate alot. theres alot of spots where you use pinkies in a large area and they're quite easy to dodge and punch to death. There was alot of cool stuff the the map, I liked alot of the rooms and really liked the signs on the floor (med pack, UAC), I felt lost in the mountan "maze?" I think if it was a bit darker some spectres would go great in there. There is alot of fun to be had but I'd like to see you do some smaller maps in the future if you don't mind, as long maps take quite some time with no save and such. I Dig your classic but detailed aesthetics. usually when maps look old they look bad, but not in this example at all. Very Cool.

[baja blast rd.]

I played for 55 minutes, recording a FDA, only to find out the level is broken because the cyber arena has two walkover lines that shut the area where you get the red key, and it's only possible to open it from the inside.

-________________________________________________________________________-

Those lines are also in a very bad place to begin with because they are so close to the door that you can trigger it and back out, thus shutting you out without even needing to use two of the triggers. That didn't happen, but yeah, it easily can.

Anyway, in the way of criticism: 1) There's a lot of variation in the amount of detail used, as mentioned earlier. Some areas look totally empty. Others are quite highly detailed. Not very cohesive. 2) Quite a few monsters are stuck. ZDoom is a lot more lenient than prBoom+ wrt how much room monsters can have to move.

[DooM_RO]

Thank you for your feedback! I would really appreciate it if someone recorded themselves playing it. It would help me a lot. You can expect more maps from me but right now I really want to become a better mapper. Making this map was painfully slow.

I know some areas are a bit empty-looking but I like to think they are in the minority. In particular, I didn't know how to make the main hub area (the one after the Blue door key) more visually interesting. I tried different texture combinations and shapes but they either all tiled badly or looked weird in a big, outdoor area. I was sorely missing some Doom 2 textures but I didn't want to use Doom 2 because it doesn't have a load of Doom 1 textures and I wanted this to use only vanilla stuff. I thought limiting myself would force me to adapt and hence become a better mapper. In particular, I REALLY wanted to put some Doom 2 monsters. I would have put 2 (or even 3) Archviles in that baron maze for instance.

Also, why didn't I think of putting spectres in that mountain maze?? It's so obvious...

There are also a few rooms inside that are a bit empty but that is because I really didn't know what else to do with them.

I didn't think those bars could close before you entered the room.

What did you guys think of the level design from a gameplay point of view? Did you find all the secrets?

[baja blast rd.]

Here's the demo if you want it, lol.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/1sbb0drkmrqcshj/retribution_rdwpa_fda.lmp

I will feel somewhat annoyed if you don't watch every minute of it without speeding up, to make up for my feeling of wasted time. :)

I had the BFG so it wasn't a big deal, but the cyber encounter might represent a massive step-up in difficulty for the player who gets there without the BFG. So maybe that should be tweaked a bit, with a blue armor + soulsphere added. To make up for it, health can be reduced elsewhere, because there are a lot of areas where you don't really need any health.

Difficulty was overall fairly low, but there were enough occasional traps that it didn't feel boring, most of the time. As MrGlide mentioned, the berserk pack means you really load up on the shells. I don't think the berserk packs should be removed, because shotgunning/chaingunning non-threatening pinkies is not fun at all. What you can do is reduce the number of pinkies that aren't in threatening traps, by quite a lot, and also give somewhat fewer shells/bullets.

[DooM_RO]

rdwpa said:

Here's the demo if you want it, lol.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/1sbb0drkmrqcshj/retribution_rdwpa_fda.lmp

I will feel somewhat annoyed if you don't watch every minute of it without speeding up, to make up for my feeling of wasted time. :)

I had the BFG so it wasn't a big deal, but the cyber encounter might represent a massive step-up in difficulty for the player who gets there without the BFG. So maybe that should be tweaked a bit, with a blue armor + soulsphere added. To make up for it, health can be reduced elsewhere, because there are a lot of areas where you don't really need any health.

Difficulty was overall fairly low, but there were enough occasional traps that it didn't feel boring, most of the time. As MrGlide mentioned, the berserk pack means you really load up on the shells. I don't think the berserk packs should be removed, because shotgunning/chaingunning non-threatening pinkies is not fun at all. What you can do is reduce the number of pinkies that aren't in threatening traps, by quite a lot, and also give somewhat fewer shells/bullets.

Hmm, did you download the file a few days ago? Your version is outdated. The green armor secret from the beginning was replaced with a BFG and the way you get there is different. You also can't fall in the death pit at the beginning of the level.

When did you download this?

Anyway, it was only a minor edit. Thank you for the FDA!

For those who are wondering, the link in the OP is the correct one.
Will post an IdGames version soon.

[baja blast rd.]

The version in the OP is the one I have on my HD: modified last roughly 12 hours ago from now. I dl'd it from this thread. I didn't encounter any death pits.

[DooM_RO]

rdwpa said:

The version in the OP is the one I have on my HD: modified last roughly 12 hours ago from now. I dl'd it from this thread. I didn't encounter any death pits.

Strange...the FDA shows you aimlessly going around the first area then spending 10 minutes in the "pit" near the tram, a problem I fixed in the newest version. Near the tram there is also a lift. Did you see the BFG there or a green armor?

[scifista42]

@DooM_RO: To correctly play back a demo, you must load it with the exact same version of the wad/map that the demo was recorded on, otherwise it would "desync".

[DooM_RO]

HOLY SHIT!!!

What happened at that Green Armor secret?!! That never happened when I played it!

[scifista42]

I haven't watched the demo, but it might be a matter of the used "complevel". You said the map was limit removing, so that rdwpa probably recorded his demo with parameter "-complevel 3", which is the proper complevel for demo recording Ultimate Doom limit removing maps. This compatibility reintroduces some specific behaviors of the vanilla engine, different from PrBoom-plus's behavior in its default complevel. I'm trying to say that you should have playtested your map in PrBoom-plus with "-complevel 3" parameter too.

[DooM_RO]

Aaaaah....now I see what it was. There was a leftover linedef action from a very long time ago that I had completely forgotten about and the linedefs were tagged 0 and it triggered all the 0 tagged sectors. You are right, I just fired it up in PrBoom+ and tested it like that. I'm gonna hve to fix that since I have already submitted the map to Id Games.

[DooM_RO]

Alright, I fixed it. It is also no longer possible to break the level.

[baja blast rd.]

I also want to mention that I did have a positive impression overall of what I played. I just had to vent after playing for 55 minutes only to get stuck, so don't read too much into any harsh tone.

[DooM_RO]

rdwpa said:

I also want to mention that I did have a positive impression overall of what I played. I just had to vent after playing for 55 minutes only to get stuck, so don't read too much into any harsh tone.

It's ok! I appreciate any feedback I get. I really want to become a great mapper. I hope my map is proof of that. I want to be like Skillsaw and Esselfortium one day.

Thank you for taking your time for my map.

[DooM_RO]

I would like to ask a question.

Those who have played it, how could I have made the encounters more interesting/dangerous? I found that to be quite hard to do with just Doom monsters. I mean I think I did an OK job but I think I could have done better.

I played Chris Hansen's E2 Replacement and he fucking nailed it but I find it really really hard to make maps like he does.

I mean, those maps are technically not as detailed as mine (If he reads this I really hope he doesn't take this the wrong way) but they have more interesting shapes and use of texture, not to mention gameplay. When I make maps that is actually the style I want to make but with more detail.

I mean, when I make maps, it's really hard for me to make interesting shapes, even basic ones. Most rooms I make start as a square and I have to try really hard to make something interesting and cohesive. I remember a user posting a few helpful guides (was it rdwpa?) but I feel like I need more. I definitely don't want to spend so much time on a single map anymore. I'd like to know how I could "sketch" maps.

[plums]

Can you put up a link to the fixed version? I'd be up for playing this.

[illuknisaa]

I played the map for a bit but I couldn't find the blue key to progress so I gave up.

Individual rooms are nicely detailed but the map lacks focus. There are no landmarks to orient oneself. This confusing level design is made worse by the fact that there are doors that don't need a key but the player can't open. Lack of enemies doesn't help either. It would help if there was just few random zombies to guide the player to new areas.

[MrGlide]

DooM_RO said:

Those who have played it, how could I have made the encounters more interesting/dangerous? I found that to be quite hard to do with just Doom monsters. I mean I think I did an OK job but I think I could have done better.

smaller map with way less ammo, a big thing about doom 1 vs doom 2 imo is doom 1 has to do "more with less". E1M8 is a really great example, it starves you, puts you at tight angles and the barons are actually a threat. your wad feels more like a doom 2 map then a doom 1 map.

I played Chris Hansen's E2 Replacement and he fucking nailed it but I find it really really hard to make maps like he does.

which wad?

I mean, when I make maps, it's really hard for me to make interesting shapes, even basic ones. Most rooms I make start as a square and I have to try really hard to make something interesting and cohesive. I remember a user posting a few helpful guides (was it rdwpa?) but I feel like I need more. I definitely don't want to spend so much time on a single map anymore. I'd like to know how I could "sketch" maps.

easy peasy bud,graph paper works really good, it's fun as well. go ahead and just try to draw basic shapes aligned to the grid, like a circle. also try to use 45 degree angles when you can, I saw you were doing that a bit in your map. I also like to think of monsters like chess peices, yous them to cover doors and spots, have them watch each others backs and such. imps, don't just use imps as turrets, it helps to make them more of a threat if there are some moving around at base level and have some flank you so there are fireballs coming from different directions and angles. Pinkies are well used in ver tight spaces with other monsters, heards of them in a funny way arn't threatening if you've berzerk or chainsaw. cacos should imo desend at the players so they've harder time getting into infighting. Troopers are good at short ranges. spectres in colorless areas. I'd love to talk more about this.