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Caine

it is NOT Old School?! did you all forget?

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i didnt play the game yet but i saw some walkthrough videos from the first 3-4 maps as i didnt want to spoil myself too much but also i didnt want to make the mistake like the shitgame duke nukem forever which is a total disgrace and after played the fucking awful doom beta mp i was and still am unsure....

as this is DOOMWORLD and i know that here are many people who were raised with Doom 1 and 2 i hope to not get flamed by CoD infested and stupid kids as on Steam who compare Doom with Doom 3 always and/or CoD games.....

let me list some points where i am still unsure and dont understand what is great or better at all, and no im not a nostalgic gamer who is blended by "old games are better" but isnt excited and blown away anymore by all those simplified FPS games....

for me why doom 1 and 2 are still endless classics (i totally ignore graphics now!):

- the games were straightforward, instead of blablablabla and long tutorials
- they needed A LOT OF SKILL as each weapon had its own use in situations and monsters
- a lot of secrets
- complex level design, yeah not always the best and sometimes too labyrinthlike, but still a lot to discover and explore
- backtracking which is nice and where you had to learn a map and have fun
- weapons which had each some use and felt great!
- monsterdesign which is really dark and great with their own tactics
- awesome killersoundtrack which sticks in your ears
- MODdability, need i say more?
- massive monster numbers!
- stuff like killing 2-3 enemies with a single shot! well placed barrels etc.


DOOM Reboot!
- the movement speed seems like he is hovering? also the mouselook is looking strange?
- enemies spawn randomly and not many at some open spaces and feels hollow, not so filled with enemies
- the music was really nice and pumping! but somehow not catchy and fast over
- there seems to be not well backtracking for health/secret/ammopiuckups?
- the level design seems not so complex but ok?
- are there many secrets?
- Modability is not existent...... a shot for the coffin
- the OOOmph with the weapons isnt so hard and feeled? the design is somewhat generic?
- killmoves.... can you switch them totally off? it seems those idiotic killmoves are a MUST and sorry but this has nothing to do with skill and i wanna shoot those monsters with the weapons and not having to shoot extrabullets when they glow.....
- also the health and ammopickups after killmoves is just stupid... enemies should be enemies and not some containers.
- where is the doomguy face ;), ok this is not a must but would have been nice
- so far the levels looked very generic and with not many monsters filled + just randomly spawned and some shield-holding enemy is plain stupid and not fitting for doom in my opinion
- is the chainsaw only a killmoveweapon?


let me tell you that im no hater of newer fps, im just 30 years old and older fps also werent the best but just had more complexity in their gameplay and fun than those cinematic and straightforward FPS games in my opninon, the last game was Serious Sam (not 3, i dont like 3) i can remember being somewhat old school and awesome. oh and painkiller!
i enjoy of course other FPS games too like FEAR etc. but i miss those 90s Doom, Duke3d, Blood and so on.

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Caine said:

i didnt play the game yet but i saw some walkthrough videos from the first 3-4 maps

Maybe this is why you don't understand things.

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Caine said:

i didnt play the game yet but i saw some walkthrough vid


Hey thanks man, you saved me a lot of time right there.

I love it when posts instantly lets you know when they're not worth reading.

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Caine said:

rant based off a youtube video


I would have thought that you would know basic punctuation and capitalization by the time you were 30 years old...

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seeing some walkthroughs you can of course see the spawning of enemies, how many there are, the music etc. you kidding me?
you are like, uhhh this kid watched some vids, the music when you play is TOTALLY different and enemies... come on guys, you can do better orare also brainwashed now.

and now flame me about my grammar... seems there is also no discussion possible anymore here without flaming kids or adult kids.

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Dude, why does this matter to you so much? You seem super agitated.

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r_init: getpostnumberforname: post not found!

Edited by Justince

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A lot of your points in both categories conflict with others in the same category. Do you also realize the source ports aren't the base games? It didn't have that much great variety until ID decided to release the source code.

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Caine said:

- the movement speed seems like he is hovering? also the mouselook is looking strange?


Movement seems fine to me. No idea what you mean in regards to mouselook. It's no different than any other first-person shooter.

Caine said:

- enemies spawn randomly and not many at some open spaces and feels hollow, not so filled with enemies


Some spawn, some don't. It really depends.

Caine said:

- there seems to be not well backtracking for health/secret/ammopiuckups?


I've backtracked numerous times for those things. Health is especially tough to come by sometimes because glory kills don't give you much unless you're badly injured yourself. Chainsaw kills give you lots of ammo, but the chainsaw also runs on fuel, which is limited and nowhere near as commonly found as traditional ammo. Backtracking is definitely still a thing.

Caine said:

- the level design seems not so complex but ok?


No, the level design gets to be very complex, especially if you turn off the compass and objective markers and therefore aren't told where exactly to go.

Caine said:

- are there many secrets?


A ton of them. The game is crawling with secrets.

Caine said:

- the OOOmph with the weapons isnt so hard and feeled? the design is somewhat generic?


Eh, most of the weapons seem fine to me. I still don't like the plasma rifle very much (particularly audio-wise) and the pistol is also underwhelming in that regard, but every other weapon feels and sounds pretty good.

Caine said:

- killmoves.... can you switch them totally off? it seems those idiotic killmoves are a MUST and sorry but this has nothing to do with skill and i wanna shoot those monsters with the weapons and not having to shoot extrabullets when they glow.....


You can turn off the glow, but you can't disable them. They aren't a "must" at all, though. When enemies glow, it means they're severely injured. You can either shoot them again to kill them, or glory kill them for a bit of health. The choice is yours. It doesn't hurt the gameplay what-so-ever.

Caine said:

- is the chainsaw only a killmoveweapon?


Yep, and that's one of the few mechanics I don't really care for. It instantly kills enemies (the larger the enemy, the more fuel it consumes) and gives you a whole bunch of ammo in return. You don't get fuel in return, though, so you can't keep spamming it in combat.

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I think the OP is retarded. Seeing as he can't speak English or spell properly.

No modability? There's snapmap and people have already stripped textures for mod packs. This game is getting good reviews so we will probably get mod support that's even more down the line.

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why must you finish all your lines with a question mark?? it's really annoying and reads as if you were a pizza faced tween?

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Then don't get the game, pretty easy, or you could actually play it first before bitching.

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Waaaa waaaa. So far Doom 4 seems it was done right for the most part. The old school roots are back and what we have is doom 2 with better graphics and a few neat perks like weapon upgrades that are really fun.

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he wasn't bitching about the game, just asking questions about it, if it's like the originals.

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chubz said:

Movement seems fine to me. No idea what you mean in regards to mouselook. It's no different than any other first-person shooter.

Some spawn, some don't. It really depends.

I've backtracked numerous times for those things. Health is especially tough to come by sometimes because glory kills don't give you much unless you're badly injured yourself. Chainsaw kills give you lots of ammo, but the chainsaw also runs on fuel, which is limited and nowhere near as commonly found as traditional ammo. Backtracking is definitely still a thing.

No, the level design gets to be very complex, especially if you turn off the compass and objective markers and therefore aren't told where exactly to go.

A ton of them. The game is crawling with secrets.

Eh, most of the weapons seem fine to me. I still don't like the plasma rifle very much (particularly audio-wise) and the pistol is also underwhelming in that regard, but every other weapon feels and sounds pretty good.

You can turn off the glow, but you can't disable them. They aren't a "must" at all, though. When enemies glow, it means they're severely injured. You can either shoot them again to kill them, or glory kill them for a bit of health. The choice is yours. It doesn't hurt the gameplay what-so-ever.

Yep, and that's one of the few mechanics I don't really care for. It instantly kills enemies (the larger the enemy, the more fuel it consumes) and gives you a whole bunch of ammo in return. You don't get fuel in return, though, so you can't keep spamming it in combat.


thanks a lot buddy!

well this is what i see as a problem!
so you cannot shoot 2-3 enemies with a nice shotgun blast? but have to shoot (again...) if you dont want to Killmove it? :(
i still think killmoves shouldnt give players advantages (health etc.) cause this is cheap and not like in the first games where you had to beat the enemies with skill!

@movement, it looked like the doomguy is iceskating somehow ;), well imma get the game still cause it got too many good feedbacks also from older people, if it really disappoints me then i really lost hope in FPS.

one thing i found on a user review which concerns me:

"Combat:
I can't tell if they intentional wanted to take an epic crap all over DOOM or if they just thought wave combat made Doom 3 good.... I'm suprised on of the level designers didn't slap the developers upside the head with a 2x4 when they desided on wave battles. They lock you in tiny arenas in which you have to run around in circles likee a constipated weener dog while firing idiotically at anything tht happens to cross infront of you. I mean, if i wanted to play Quake Arena, I WOULD HAVE BOOTED UP QUAKE ARENA. I'll get to thier AI in a later section.
The regular level enemies, be they few and far between are a nice DOOM touch, it almost convinces me that this game was inspired by the original Dooms. I can see why they had to go with the atrocity that is wave combat. It's due to the awkward level design that just doesnt support original DOOM style play.
They give the players grenades and a backpack full of weapons (i'll get to those later), to try and sell the "You can play whatever style you like". Its a lie, a straight up, bold face, "it's 4 player co-op", LIE. The designers have forced players into the previously stated, running around like a constipated weener dog style. You can try and play it like an older Doom, Duke 3D, Blakestone, Wolfenstien or an other early era shooter, but no... you will die insanly fast due to the way that drops and AI is dispatched at you. Basically they have made it "play our way or face the consequences".

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Caine said:

well this is what i see as a problem!
so you cannot shoot 2-3 enemies with a nice shotgun blast? but have to shoot (again...) if you dont want to Killmove it? :(


It depends on how much damage you do. If you blast an Imp at point-blank range with the shotgun, for example, you can one-shot-kill it just like in the original Doom. If you shoot it from a distance, though, you'll probably stagger it before you kill it. Staggered enemies are just badly-hurt enemies. The only difference between this and the original Doom games is that in the originals, enemies were never staggered when close to death.

Caine said:

one thing i found on a user review which concerns me:

"Combat:
I can't tell if they intentional wanted to take an epic crap all over DOOM or if they just thought wave combat made Doom 3 good.... I'm suprised on of the level designers didn't slap the developers upside the head with a 2x4 when they desided on wave battles. They lock you in tiny arenas in which you have to run around in circles likee a constipated weener dog while firing idiotically at anything tht happens to cross infront of you. I mean, if i wanted to play Quake Arena, I WOULD HAVE BOOTED UP QUAKE ARENA. I'll get to thier AI in a later section.
The regular level enemies, be they few and far between are a nice DOOM touch, it almost convinces me that this game was inspired by the original Dooms. I can see why they had to go with the atrocity that is wave combat. It's due to the awkward level design that just doesnt support original DOOM style play.
They give the players grenades and a backpack full of weapons (i'll get to those later), to try and sell the "You can play whatever style you like". Its a lie, a straight up, bold face, "it's 4 player co-op", LIE. The designers have forced players into the previously stated, running around like a constipated weener dog style. You can try and play it like an older Doom, Duke 3D, Blakestone, Wolfenstien or an other early era shooter, but no... you will die insanly fast due to the way that drops and AI is dispatched at you. Basically they have made it "play our way or face the consequences".


You aren't locked into arenas in every combat situation. And on those occasions when you are, the combat is so fun and intense it isn't really a downside IMO.

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>the doomguy always moved like he's floating, what do you want? Call of duty bobby movement?
>There are literaly enemies evwrywhere what are you talking about?
>secrets are prominent in ALL levels and require backracking, and even more so hard to find because most of them are well hidden either above or below.
>soundtrack is awesome
>Guns still feel powerful if done right. It's the enemies that are tougher for some reason.
>The plasma gun sounds like an electric guitar.
>the doomguys face may be iconic but distracting, tje majority of people play doom 2 with zdoom with its aƱternate and simplified hud.
>most old school shooters are not mod supported, people just liked modding so they modded.
>killmoves are pptional, they literaly added options in the menu to turn off the hud amd everything to play like the classic doom.
>The chainsaw is a key, the monsters are the loot chest. Now what do you do with a key?

It plays as a classic shooter. Its made to be a classic shooter.

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If you imagine the classic Dooms as flawless where if anything that deviates from the originals is bad then you have no choice but to only play classic FPS games and never move on.

I can assure you, despite the player's combat speed being slower and "floats" the game makes up for it with more intelligent enemies, additional mechanics both your side and theirs and fantastic animations / graphics (which apparently you don't care for sadly, but it's cinematic level and should be appreciated regardless).

In the classic Dooms you may need 12 Imps to be be dangerous enough to hit you with one fireball but in Doom 2016 just 3 can scatter, climb on walls and do back flips while throwing projectiles at you, dodging your attacks as you do theirs. It's quality over quantity, but it does one better, it gradually gives you both mass monster encounters with heart pumping action.

I know I haven't addressed all your points but I'm just trying to convince you that all core mechanics are justified and you need to play the game for a bit to see. At least you don't have to glory kill at all and have the option to switch off the light that indicates they're ready for a fatality. It would be as if the mechanic wasn't even there at all.

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Caine said:

i still think killmoves shouldnt give players advantages (health etc.) cause this is cheap and not like in the first games where you had to beat the enemies with skill!


Haw. Sounds like you never even played original games. How much skill does it take to shoot a Baron until it dies? Or an imp? Or a Demon? Speed of the originals was so fast the enemies move like slugs by comparison. Most of the time you can circle strafe them until they die or camp them until they die. Real skill amirite?

Quit talking out of your ass, kid.

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I liked so far what I've played, it's more fun than I expected, but here is some small complains.

Glory kills. I didn't mind a little bit of glory kill animation, people call these cinematics, but I think cinematics are something bigger. Also, they look like QTEs which I hate, but QTEs stopped your game and asked you to randomly press some button else you failed. Now, it's more like you could remove the highlighting and making a regular melee.

But there are issues. The camera changes and I am dissoriented after a glorykill. Maybe at that point a fireballs is coming at me and it takes time to go back and see ok where am I in space? So,. you make the kill and get +5 health and lose more.

Also, if you decide to avoid them, sometimes some enemy takes 2 shotgun shots to glow, then you spend another one to kill it. If not, it will be revived back. In Brutal Doom, someone being in a bad state, would just die if you left him. Here,. yes they say you don't need to do glory kill but then you waste more ammo.

And then the game might force you at the end, because in some situations you lose health, you have to replenish and you do the glory kill.

Other issues I found later on, checkpoints and no quicksave. Which becames worse in a level with high tower, too much jump puzzles, parkour, I fall and die a lot.


So,. as a modern FPS I quite like it, but some complains are legit.
And if I was to compare with oldschool Doom, there are things missing, like weapons still are weaker, that feeling where you super shotgun 2-4 enemies at once is nowhere in any other FPS. Levels, while complex and with up/down spaces, they seem too rectangular (that's because of Snapmap), maybe I am nostalgic and want those classic doom levels with weird sectors and colorful textures, mixes of tech with marble and satanic, things are more dark and bland in many modern FPS, maybe because they have to look realistic. There is no place for abstract Doom levels even in Doom itself.

So, I wouldn't compare it with classic Doom. Maybe compare it with modern FPS. It's much more fun than other recent FPS I've played.

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Caine said:

not like in the first games where you had to beat the enemies with skill!


Really? BFG abuse and duck-n-cover behind walls is skill?

The difficulty in doom 2 came primarily in the level design of the map you were playing. The reason enemies give health in doom 4 with kill moves is because the maps are designed with health scarcity in mind (whether its truly scarce or not is another matter) and to avoid having to back track. The kill moves take 2-3 seconds tops and they hardly interrupt the flow of the game, they are really not an issue.

Optimus said:

So, I wouldn't compare it with classic Doom. Maybe compare it with modern FPS.


You cannot compare doom 4 to "modern fps games" because there are none that are like doom 4 other than maybe wolfenstien. The game play we got in doom 4 is something that stopped existing in FPS games for over a decade and its a nice refresher to have it back. Good job on your gameplay iD!

Chezza said:

it gradually gives you both mass monster encounters with heart pumping action.


I want to see nuts!.wad for Doom 4.

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"beat with skill" in th classic dooms? LOL! The enemies are literally slow moving bullet sponges.
The new doom enemies move very fast and still attack while theyre running, theyre literally running and gunning you.Not to mention their attacks (including the possesed staff) deal so much damage.

a game that doesnt change is a bad game. Just look at duke nukem forever.

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HellVain said:

"beat with skill" in th classic dooms? LOL! The enemies are literally slow moving bullet sponges.
The new doom enemies move very fast and still attack while theyre running, theyre literally running and gunning you.Not to mention their attacks (including the possesed staff) deal so much damage.

a game that doesnt change is a bad game. Just look at duke nukem forever.

For me DNF felt bad more due to trying to do to much, and not really due to sticking to some older mechanics (which is more of a game that doesn't change correctly can be a bad/greatly disappointing game). Though I guess the shoehorning in of two specific modern mechanics didn't really help.

Skill wise though, having a handful of hitscan enemies did add more to mix it up. They really should have some hitscan variants that have a chance of showing up for the possessed humans what with how incredibly non mobile they are (and some crimson head like one for the regular zombies).

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