no hit-scan in this doom

[Amph]

seems that no one noticed the obviousness, there are no hit-scan here like in the old doom, do you like this or not? i'm on the fence for it to be honest

[hardcore_gamer]

Like it. Hitscan enemies were one of the few things I did not like about the original Doom. Nothing you can really do when suddenly ambushed by a group of zombies, you were almost always going to take damage no matter what you did, only thing you could do was minimizing the damage you took.

[LittleBurger]

I think a hitscan variation of this games former humans should maybe be there as a random one that may show up to keep you on your toes. More so with how generally slow they are compared to other enemies.

[tuo]

Amph said:

seems that no one noticed the obviousness, there are no hit-scan here like in the old doom, do you like this or not? i'm on the fence for it to be honest

Oh, most noticed, actually some time ago during the SP streams.

I like it, it fits the new gameplay.

[PureSlime]

I like it. It puts a lot more emphasis on skillfully dodging projectiles rather than mostly just hoping some guy off to the side doesn't shoot at you with blazing accuracy.

[Optimus]

I wouldn't mind either as long as they shoot like idiots. In modern FPS, enemies react fast and shoot on target, on Doom they would pause a bit, shoot randomly a bit to the left/right from your position.

Now, there is something about the new Doom, the player moves slower than the older Doom and at the same time the projectiles are really really fast and enemies jumps on you. It makes it harder, different gameplay, you no longer feel like king of the world as in the old where you dodged lightly if there were no hit scanners at least.

One problem, the classic levels replace all zombie soldiers and sergeants with an enemy that shoots projectiles in succession but takes 2-3 shotgun hits and they all come together, and actually the imps are much easier in these maps. There should be a much weaker pistol projectile enemy for these monsters. It plays badly in the maps, they become so much harder with those kinds of enemies.

[LittleBurger]

Optimus said:

I wouldn't mind either as long as they shoot like idiots. In modern FPS, enemies react fast and shoot on target, on Doom they would pause a bit, shoot randomly a bit to the left/right from your position.

Now, there is something about the new Doom, the player moves slower than the older Doom and at the same time the projectiles are really really fast and enemies jumps on you. It makes it harder, different gameplay, you no longer feel like king of the world as in the old where you dodged lightly if there were no hit scanners at least.

One problem, the classic levels replace all zombie soldiers and sergeants with an enemy that shoots projectiles in succession but takes 2-3 shotgun hits and they all come together, and actually the imps are much easier in these maps. There should be a much weaker pistol projectile enemy for these monsters. It plays badly in the maps, they become so much harder with those kinds of enemies.

Them being generally inaccurate would be nice (I sort of hate when they generally make it so most enemies react quickly and never really miss most of the time (probably why the enemies in fallout 4 having near perfect accuracy from longer ranges with most weapons (aside from shotguns) as being a great annoyance). They would still sort of fit in well as there is usually lots of various things/or demons to use to block their shots, and it would sort of help counter their general slowness (compared to the more mobile enemies in the game).

Have to agree on that classic map enemies, the imps fit in rather well, but the newer former human like enemies are generally more annoying. I also sort of wish the pistol was allowed to auto fire (that rapid clicking on the left mouse key for it is killer on my index finger, though the charged shot does sort of help with taking them out quicker).

[id.dav]

Amph said:

seems that no one noticed the obviousness, there are no hit-scan here like in the old doom, do you like this or not? i'm on the fence for it to be honest

Obviously DO NOT LIKE IT! Just like no homing missiles from revenants and other dumbed down stuff wich is DUMBED DOWN and don't listen to any excuses! IT IS DUMBED DOWN! It's a fucking 2016 game where we have such an advanced mobility and other cool stuff and yet devs do everything to avoid trully skillbased elements!
Oh fuck it...really I'm tired to repeat it....hate me once again!

[tuo]

id.dav said:

Obviously DO NOT LIKE IT! Just like no homing missiles from revenants and other dumbed down stuff wich is DUMBED DOWN and don't listen to any excuses! IT IS DUMBED DOWN! It's a fucking 2016 game where we have such an advanced mobility and other cool stuff and yet devs do everything to avoid trully skillbased elements!
Oh fuck it...really I'm tired to repeat it....hate me once again!

But...there are homing missiles from Revenants. They are only very fast, so that you can evade them easier than the slow homing missiles from Doom 2 and Doom 3.
When the Revenant hovers and lights his two lasers, the following missiles are homing. Try it. Just get away fast, to get some space between you and the Revenant, and the circle strafe, and watch the missile arc towards you. It won't hit you if you don't stop moving, but it homes.

And regarding wether Doom 2016 incorporates skillbased elements...yeah, I guess there is no basic ground to discuss this regarding your stance towards the game, which is okay, sometimes people can just agree to disagree.

[LittleBurger]

tuo said:

But...there are homing missiles from Revenants. They are only very fast, so that you can evade them easier than the slow homing missiles from Doom 2 and Doom 3.
When the Revenant hovers and lights his two lasers, the following missiles are homing. Try it.

Huh, so that is what that attack is supposed to be? I guess they did sort of seem to curve towards me some, but they move a little to fast to really home in at closer ranges (I can see those really only working at long range then).

[tuo]

LittleBurger said:

Huh, so that is what that attack is supposed to be? I guess they did sort of seem to curve towards me some, but they move a little to fast to really home in at closer ranges (I can see those really only working at long range then).

Yeah, the could have made them not home in at all, and it wouldn't have made that big of a difference, as they are too fast to make the homing usefull. But that's that attack. You can see it best if you harass a Revenant in the later Hell levels with a gun from far away. Sometimes (I only had it happen two times, IIRC), when he realizes he can't get to you, he will start this attack from far away, and that's the best way to see they are homing (but still easy to dodge).

Then again, they could also have not made those fucking Pinkies home in when charging, because they also follow a slight arc if you move...would have made dealing with them much more easy ;)

[TheMightyHeracross]

id.dav said:

Obviously DO NOT LIKE IT! Just like no homing missiles from revenants and other dumbed down stuff wich is DUMBED DOWN and don't listen to any excuses! IT IS DUMBED DOWN! It's a fucking 2016 game where we have such an advanced mobility and other cool stuff and yet devs do everything to avoid trully skillbased elements!
Oh fuck it...really I'm tired to repeat it....hate me once again!

Because instant hit attacks that force you to hide behind cover and take potshots is TRULY SKILLBASED and actively dodging projectiles is DUMBED DOWN.

Are you serious?

[Robo_Cola]

Optimus said:

I wouldn't mind either as long as they shoot like idiots. In modern FPS, enemies react fast and shoot on target, on Doom they would pause a bit, shoot randomly a bit to the left/right from your position.

Now, there is something about the new Doom, the player moves slower than the older Doom and at the same time the projectiles are really really fast and enemies jumps on you. It makes it harder, different gameplay, you no longer feel like king of the world as in the old where you dodged lightly if there were no hit scanners at least.

One problem, the classic levels replace all zombie soldiers and sergeants with an enemy that shoots projectiles in succession but takes 2-3 shotgun hits and they all come together, and actually the imps are much easier in these maps. There should be a much weaker pistol projectile enemy for these monsters. It plays badly in the maps, they become so much harder with those kinds of enemies.

I agree with you on the "player moves slower than the older DooM." Hate to be that guy, but I really think they should umph up the movement speed just a little. Especially since the AI is smarter *Hell night and Pinky especially* then the older games,

[HellVain]

heh, funny, the projectiles by possessed soldiers are surprisingly powerful like 15-20 damage per hit. The enemy health seems to be synonymous to quake 1's enemy health since they are more tougher for some reason.

[CheeseOnTheMoon]

I thought the shield guys had hitscan shotguns, so they just have a really fast projectile weapon?

[Doomguy #876]

If there were hit scan enemies, ultra nightmare would literally be impossible.

[HellVain]

Jet1337 said:

If there were hit scan enemies, ultra nightmare would literally be impossible.

I died in hell when i tired ultra-nightmare. It was glorious. ultra-nightmare is no joke, It's fucking hard yet satisfying.

[Tetzlaff]

CheeseOnTheMoon said:

I thought the shield guys had hitscan shotguns, so they just have a really fast projectile weapon?

I was wondering this as well. Shotguns normally are designed as hitscan weapons.

[RaikohZX]

CheeseOnTheMoon said:

I thought the shield guys had hitscan shotguns, so they just have a really fast projectile weapon?

Their hits are weird. They won't be hitting you from a range, you have to be in their blast radius, but they buzzsaw your armor/health like nobody's business in the process. It's "hitscan" but in a limited range. I swear they've sprayed several shots at me and it looked like I should be hit but I wasn't.

[Optimus]

TheMightyHeracross said:

Because instant hit attacks that force you to hide behind cover and take potshots is TRULY SKILLBASED and actively dodging projectiles is DUMBED DOWN.

That could be bad in modern FPS where hitscanners everywhere are very accurate and react instantly and the gameplay is designed with a cover system and the enemies stay there behind their covers.

Doom works quite differently with the hitscanners. Besides they react slower and shoot randomly, most interesting moments in Doom is when you enter a room and you see a bunch of monsters and your mind goes "First I kill the shotgunners while strafing from the imp fireballs" or "maybe I can make the heavy machine dude shoot those Cacos". And yes, sometimes I take cover behind walls, and I like to strafe shoot shotguners and back, or taking them from afar. But it's quite different than modern FPS with hit-scanners where you just can't run around, which is why we have this criticism whether hit-scanners are bad. They were good in Doom.

[Voros]

TheMightyHeracross said:

hide behind cover

Ahem. That's ONE reason why hitscanners aren't there.

TheMightyHeracross said:

actively dodging projectiles

That's another reason why hitscanners aren't there.

[illuknisaa]

TheMightyHeracross said:

Because instant hit attacks that force you to hide behind cover and take potshots is TRULY SKILLBASED and actively dodging projectiles is DUMBED DOWN.

Are you serious?

Holding down W and running in a circle really is not skill based but being forced to prioritize between different enemies is skill based.

Hitscanners ask the question "Do I shoot him or do I find cover?"

Projectile enemies ask the question "Am I holding down W, y/n?"

[Jaxxoon R]

The possessed security seem to be enough of a threat on their own to still be prioritized in a conflict.

Also, "cover," you know, because the funnest part of Doom is just leaving a room.

[CheeseOnTheMoon]

RikohZX said:

Their hits are weird. They won't be hitting you from a range, you have to be in their blast radius, but they buzzsaw your armor/health like nobody's business in the process. It's "hitscan" but in a limited range. I swear they've sprayed several shots at me and it looked like I should be hit but I wasn't.

Yeah, either way they're a huge pain in the ass. It seems to be a very small bubble around them that you can't dodge. Does anyone have any good strategies for dealing with them? I always end up having to use a stun shot.

[HellVain]

CheeseOnTheMoon said:

Yeah, either way they're a huge pain in the ass. It seems to be a very small bubble around them that you can't dodge. Does anyone have any good strategies for dealing with them? I always end up having to use a stun shot.

Shoot them until they die.

[LittleBurger]

CheeseOnTheMoon said:

Yeah, either way they're a huge pain in the ass. It seems to be a very small bubble around them that you can't dodge. Does anyone have any good strategies for dealing with them? I always end up having to use a stun shot.

Aim for the slot they stick gun out of (seems like a small portion of their hand may stick out some), that or try to peg a piece of them while strafing to try and trigger the pain animation for them.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Chaingunner zombies can burn in hell. Shotgun zombies on the other hand are good and sad to see them cut. They are good to keep the player on their toes between arena fights (Where they are very useless).

Mappers using them for execution squads shouldn't be a reason to fully cut them from the game. They'll always find something else to be annoying as fuck but they'll use it anyway in fear of their map being tagged easy. (Fuck all traps involving +3 chaingunners and an elevator\wall).

Hitscan might've been "impossible" to dodge but most of the time that was its main usage. Forcing the player into alternate path\hide from time to time instead of afking while circle strafing shit to death.

[CheeseOnTheMoon]

LittleBurger said:

Aim for the slot they stick gun out of (seems like a small portion of their hand may stick out some), that or try to peg a piece of them while strafing to try and trigger the pain animation for them.

Thanks, I didn't even realize you could shoot through that. I guess I'm too used to payday 2 where not even legs have hitboxes...

[Jaxxoon R]

Yeah, the neat thing about idtech is that objects have per-polygon hit detection, so where you shoot is where you hit.