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untilitdies

Baby's First Map

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Sure, sorry. Wanted to get this out before I headed off to work, I'll post some screenshots when I have a second. Is there a preferred hosting site for WADs?

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Here's some screenshots! I've tested the link and it DOES work. Please let me know what you think, and give me suggestions on how I can improve. There ARE a few secrets in the map.



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MistAche said:

This smells of ztkt...

Can you please provide some screen shots, and a working link?

I can't help but laugh at this.

Is it at least supposed to, kinda be a joke wad?

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I cant call this bad, no, I can only call this bland. uninspired. mediocre. and frankly a tad broken since I got locked in a room twice. its just, so, boring. there is nothing here but open door, shoot guy, grab thing. don't get me wrong, this is like just about all of my first (and almost only) maps, but I never had the audacity to release them. I knew they sucked, I just wanted some more maps to paly and thought I might be able to make some myself. You have to be able to make the decision yourself when a project is done, if it isn't satisfactory, don't release it! at the least just go back to the drawing board and fix it, don't just release it when you know its bad! I get it, you want to stake your claim in the world of mapping, but you cant just make some crap and release it expecting great feedback! If you really want to make a project but you know you cant really do it, then scale it down a bit, you don't need to try and build this large map with tons of unoriginal key puzzles. we have had to slow down dramatically with the doom/halo project so as to not lose scope and make a bunch of mediocre crap like you have. Sorry if I seem harsh, but if you want to be a mapper (or do anything creative for that matter) you have to draw the line at your skill level. I look forward to what you make in the future, but this has only hurt your reputation and I doubt you will receive nearly as much help on your next project given this wads impact and the publics reaction.

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Here's a complevel 9 first demo attempt:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/clyp8b8w0wx6i6o/alpha_map1_benjogami_fda.lmp?dl=1

You made a map. It's not very good. But I don't begrudge you for posting it. I like playing Doom maps. Keep making them and keep improving. B)

My advice is play lots of good Doom maps, and then play your own maps, and then think about what needs fixing, about what's lacking, and then improving it, and then etc.

I really don't think this a jokewad and I don't think it deserves ridicule. If it is a jokewad... wow... subtle. You got me.

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Thank you for the feedback. I wasn't expecting this map to be amazing or good or anything; I just wanted other people to give it a try and let me know how it was, and what to improve on. I DEFINITELY wasn't expecting great feedback or for this to be some sort of "wow, great job, you get a prize", I was expecting something more along the lines of "this element of your map was ok, but it's lacking here, try doing this instead".

Please let me know what sort of things I should be focusing on when making my levels; more complicated key puzzles seems to be one of them.

EDIT: Benjogami, thank you for the advice; looks like I've got a lot of work ahead of me. I plan on playing through a bunch of the Cacowards maps; are there any in particular that you think I could benefit from?

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A little too wide, bland looking. But not at all bad.

If this was put on idgames, I'd probably give it a 3/5.

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untilitdies said:

...any in particular that you think I could benefit from?


It depends what direction you want to go in... I'd probably recommend playing through Valiant and Blood Stain to start. I personally became interested in making maps after playing Deus Vult. Careful not to arbitrarily dump monsters in though en masse.

Think up an idea man, or look at old renaissance or medieval art and try to replicate that feeling in your WAD. Then understand that it can take months to produce something of worth; not a couple of days.

Goodluck!

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MistAche said:

a working link?


Dude, did you use chrome for browsing the net? Since i have the same issues of you with that website...

Also, from the shots looks empty, but the style looks decent... Reminds me of e2m4 and map24...

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I can't test the map right now because I'm at school, but judging from the screenshots it looks like a decent map. However I would recommend adding more detail to the map and/or future maps such as patterns on floors, props, that sort of thing. Decorational textures or props like support beams or simple crates can do wonders on a empty map.

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Okay, here's some, I hope, constructive feedback.

As others have said, the architecture is bland. Even though you have several non-rectangular rooms and corridors, there is no wall detail such as computer panel inserts, no windows looking into other areas, and no real height variation, lending it a Wolfensteiny aspect. Because of this, the combat is also bland, with almost all of it falling into the "shooting gallery" category. Which means you open a door, you see several monsters right in front of you, and you calmly blow them away. As long as a Doomer has sufficient health and ammo, they will always win these fights and never be in much danger. The one time you broke with this pattern was when you go through a door -- Sector38 -- and there's a raised platform reminiscent of E1M1's computer room alcove, and the corridor also goes off to the sides, where zombies and imps attack you from both directions. This is 3-sided combat because you have flanked the player, and it shows how to design combat-oriented architecture. Do more of that, and as you get more proficient, make the architecture work for you in more complex ways, so the player is being hit from multiple angles and heights. Put some enemies on a catwalk above the player, have some more enemies firing at them from a nukage lake below. The attacks don't have to be devastating as long as they are intrinsically interesting. If you make the player dodge, turn and move, you are causing the player to have fun, because Doom is a game of speed and movement. The vast majority of players stick with it for this reason. If you don't deliver this type of fun, the player will move on to a mapper who does.

You do show a nasty streak, which I think is a must for all mappers, but you show it in less than optimal ways. First, right at the start, I kill the Sergeant and immediately get hit by enemies I can't see. I have walls in front of me and behind me, and there is no monster off to either side, yet bullets and buckshot are hitting me. I move and soon realize that the fire is coming through the wall in front of me, and when I examine the map in DB2 I see that you've created impassable curtains by using the middle texture. Don't do shit like that, it's cheap, artificial difficulty. It's not playing fair. At one point or another we all do this sort of thing, because we want to get an edge on the player. Really good players are very hard to kill, but trust me, investing your effort in good fight design instead of cheap tricks will win in the end. You use another dodgy tactic at the yellow key trap, where a wall opens and no fewer than 15 Sergeants blast away at you from pitch darkness! I only survived because of the infighting. Having powerful hitscanners that you can't see suddenly open fire is maybe not completely illegal, but is an activity I think you should avoid. You don't want to become known as a cheap-shot artist.

In the same vein, avoid inescapable death pits like the one in front of the red key.

I found the secret path to the blue key right away. A secret door should be indicated in some way, such as a texture offset up or down of 8 - 16 units -- preferably 8 -- or by a subtle texture change as you used at the outset, or something suspicious in front of it, such as a floor lamp or a dead player in a pool of blood. You can also play automap tricks, for example not flagging the door as secret so it shows up as a yellow line on the map, or even put an arrow on the floor that can only be seen on the automap. Also, there were several doors flagged secret, for example the one hiding the E1M3-like secret containing health bonuses, but the sectors inside were not marked secret as well. They should have been. For example, you made the chaingun secret very obvious by reversing the light position on the texture. The chaingun sector should have been marked secret, as the chainsaw was, because it's not out in the open. One last thing about the blue key secret door is that you put a middle texture on the other side of it, so it becomes a curtain making it hard to know if you opened the door in front of you.

Always lower-unpeg door side textures so they don't scroll with the door, as the Startan2 texture at the chaingun secret did. It's also wisest to use door side textures intended for that use, such as doortrak and doorstop. Some people, including myself, have used lightstrips to break the monotony, but in the long run, I have turned against that practice as I think it looks silly.

You used light variation but failed to provide a light source, such as a T-Lite texture or a light source object such as a lamp, torch or burning barrel. Provide those sources in the future to make your map look more polished.

That should be enough for now. As others have said, look at quality mapsets like Valiant, BTSX or whatever you personally have liked in the past, take a look at how those mappers architected their areas and designed their fights. Also pay attention to their texturing. Then take a look at those maps in DB2 to figure out how they did it, and make a more ambitious map next time. First map is out of the way. so onward and upward. :)

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walter confalonieri said:

Dude, did you use chrome for browsing the net? Since i have the same issues of you with that website...


No. His original link wasn't entirely a URL - the OP has since edited his post and fixed it.

SteveD said:

no fewer than 15 Sergeants blast away at you from pitch darkness!


Muahaha... I couldn't help but have a laugh at this. Evil, just evil!

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SteveD said:

You do show a nasty streak, which I think is a must for all mappers, but you show it in less than optimal ways. First, right at the start, I kill the Sergeant and immediately get hit by enemies I can't see. I have walls in front of me and behind me, and there is no monster off to either side, yet bullets and buckshot are hitting me. I move and soon realize that the fire is coming through the wall in front of me, and when I examine the map in DB2 I see that you've created impassable curtains by using the middle texture. Don't do shit like that, it's cheap, artificial difficulty. It's not playing fair. At one point or another we all do this sort of thing, because we want to get an edge on the player. Really good players are very hard to kill, but trust me, investing your effort in good fight design instead of cheap tricks will win in the end.

Also, there were several doors flagged secret, for example the one hiding the E1M3-like secret containing health bonuses, but the sectors inside were not marked secret as well. They should have been. For example, you made the chaingun secret very obvious by reversing the light position on the texture. The chaingun sector should have been marked secret, as the chainsaw was, because it's not out in the open. One last thing about the blue key secret door is that you put a middle texture on the other side of it, so it becomes a curtain making it hard to know if you opened the door in front of you.

Always lower-unpeg door side textures so they don't scroll with the door, as the Startan2 texture at the chaingun secret did. It's also wisest to use door side textures intended for that use, such as doortrak and doorstop. Some people, including myself, have used lightstrips to break the monotony, but in the long run, I have turned against that practice as I think it looks silly.


This is embarrassing to say, but these were actually mistakes I made; not intentional. Thank you for pointing these out, as I got a little sloppy here and there.

As for everything else, this is the best sort of advice I could ask for. Thank you so much!

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Godfather38 said:

I cant call this bad, no, I can only call this bland. uninspired. mediocre. and frankly a tad broken since I got locked in a room twice. its just, so, boring. there is nothing here but open door, shoot guy, grab thing. don't get me wrong, this is like just about all of my first (and almost only) maps, but I never had the audacity to release them. I knew they sucked, I just wanted some more maps to paly and thought I might be able to make some myself. You have to be able to make the decision yourself when a project is done, if it isn't satisfactory, don't release it! at the least just go back to the drawing board and fix it, don't just release it when you know its bad! I get it, you want to stake your claim in the world of mapping, but you cant just make some crap and release it expecting great feedback! If you really want to make a project but you know you cant really do it, then scale it down a bit, you don't need to try and build this large map with tons of unoriginal key puzzles. we have had to slow down dramatically with the doom/halo project so as to not lose scope and make a bunch of mediocre crap like you have. Sorry if I seem harsh, but if you want to be a mapper (or do anything creative for that matter) you have to draw the line at your skill level. I look forward to what you make in the future, but this has only hurt your reputation and I doubt you will receive nearly as much help on your next project given this wads impact and the publics reaction.

What a way to stomp on someone, nice.

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BloodyAcid said:

What a way to stomp on someone, nice.

Look, I simply didn't enjoy the wad. I gave advice and tried to be a fair critic. I know it seemed harsh (I said so in it, in fact) but I decided to be a critic, not a mentor. I gave parallels to my own experience as well, I didn't claim it was his fault. it just wasn't a very good wad. I don't want to seem like a douche, however, the worst thing you can tell an artist is that their work is perfect when it isn't. I feel the same logic applies here.

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Perhaps that's true. Your choice of words leaves something to be desired though, and it's tinged with irony.

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I haven't downloaded this and I'm almost certainly not going to, but from the screenshots I can tell two things:

-it has a lot of the beginner mistakes/growing pains that people have mentioned

-it at least shows some earnest attempts, unlike some of the shit that has been posted on Doomworld in the last few weeks

So, yes, keep working. Make spaces more interesting, keep playing around with texture and elevation and shadow. It doesn't look bad for a first map, at all.

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BloodyAcid said:

Perhaps that's true. Your choice of words leaves something to be desired though, and it's tinged with irony.

By which definition of irony do you mean? if you mean I am being somewhat hypocritical, I see your point and I will admit that yes, it does seem somewhat hypocritical given that I have very little to show for myself aside from my current project that doesn't have similar issues, but I acknowledged this. I also see your points about it not being much of a good review, it lacked details and specification, which is a side effect of trying to make a small compilation of criticisms as opposed to a legitimate review that provided a more useful amount of real insight. regardless, I stand by it given that I feel my points were at least somewhat valid.

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Godfather38 said:

aside from my current project that doesn't have similar issues

This is what I'm talking about. If you mean similar issues as in if you don't think that your project displays poor map design, then that's ironic (and hypocritical). I never said your points were invalid, just that you sound like a complete asshole doing it. I also don't believe that you have the "reputation" as you call it to talk down to or "mentor" someone like this.

Quoting you:
"make a bunch of mediocre crap like you have"
"you know its bad"
"if it isn't satisfactory, don't release it!"
"make some crap and release it expecting great feedback!"
"your skill level"
"only hurt your reputation"

I don't recall the OP bragging or expecting praise? It's the guy's first map for crying out loud, what reputation is there? That he's new?

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Well, I never attempted to do any of those things. I gave feedback. and as for what I said about his reputation, I said it was only harmed by this. I never said that he had one beforehand. also, I already stated I have little to show for myself in the same field. I also wasn't using my current project as an example. if you held it in context then you would know I was saying that my first projects had similar issues. my current one isn't even In a playable stage yet anyway. also, I will admit that I don't have much authority to " talk down to or "mentor" someone like this." that wasn't my goal. ui gave my opinion. also, as for these quotes
"you know its bad"
"if it isn't satisfactory, don't release it!"
"make some crap and release it expecting great feedback!"
"your skill level"
I pointed out that these things applied to my first project, but I didn't try to release mine because I knew it was bad. simple. I am sorry if I came off in a rude or offensive manner, but that is how I feel about it. also, using quotes with little context as you did, is a very good way to make it seem like they have views that they don't. I'm going to give a very ridiculous example, but I think it will make my point:
"your project displays poor map design"
There I made you seem like you were criticizing my project without having played it, which isn't the thing you did, but it could seem like that. please use proper context and don't try and alter the original message please.

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with little context as you did, is a very good way to make it seem like they have views that they don't

I'm not sure how context was lost? The context is A: the author's wad, and B: your post, which criticizes the author. You prefaced with your experience in beginning to make maps, and then directly referred to the author using "you" and "your".

I cant call this bad, no, I can only call this bland. uninspired. mediocre. and frankly a tad broken since I got locked in a room twice. its just, so, boring. there is nothing here but open door, shoot guy, grab thing. don't get me wrong, this is like just about all of my first (and almost only) maps, but I never had the audacity to release them. I knew they sucked, I just wanted some more maps to paly and thought I might be able to make some myself.

You talk about your map. Directly after:

You have to be able to make the decision yourself when a project is done, if it isn't satisfactory, don't release it! at the least just go back to the drawing board and fix it, don't just release it when you know its bad! I get it, you want to stake your claim in the world of mapping, but you cant just make some crap and release it expecting great feedback! I

Here you are talking to the author of the map. Here, I quoted from you,
"you know its bad"
"if it isn't satisfactory, don't release it!"
"make some crap and release it expecting great feedback!"

If you really want to make a project but you know you cant really do it, then scale it down a bit, you don't need to try and build this large map with tons of unoriginal key puzzles. we have had to slow down dramatically with the doom/halo project so as to not lose scope and make a bunch of mediocre crap like you have

You specifically say "like you" when referring to mediocre crap.

if you want to be a mapper (or do anything creative for that matter) you have to draw the line at your skill level.

Bottom line, I didn't take anything out of context; I only used the lines where you used the term "you" to refer to the map author. Even if started with your experience, you're still insulting the original guy, no?

I never altered the original message either.

Anyways, I'm done derailing the thread with this useless banter. Sorry untilitdies for moving away from the topic. Godfather38, if you've anything else to retort with, you can PM me. (Also can post hell this OT stuff)

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Completed this in 4 minutes, 100% items, 53% kills.
What can I say?
It rocks. No, really.

A couple of advices:
please, please! change the floor/ceiling flats of door sectors.
DON'T put middle textures on doors. Sector 86/Linedef 370 or linedef 394.
Playtest this more. there were lots of HOMs which show up only when you open some doors (linedef 384).
Lower unpeg stair edges (linedefs 235 238 241, for example).
For the nukage pool, you might want to consider using a texture with a green bottom, such aas NUKE24 or PIPE6. Not mandatory, though.
Align your textures. At least use DB2's auto-align.
----------
Even with those bugs, I'd give this a stable 2/5. Much better than my first WAD.

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Godfather38 said:

I cant call this bad, no, I can only call this bland. uninspired. mediocre. and frankly a tad broken since I got locked in a room twice. its just, so, boring. there is nothing here but open door, shoot guy, grab thing. don't get me wrong, this is like just about all of my first (and almost only) maps, but I never had the audacity to release them. I knew they sucked, I just wanted some more maps to paly and thought I might be able to make some myself. You have to be able to make the decision yourself when a project is done, if it isn't satisfactory, don't release it! at the least just go back to the drawing board and fix it, don't just release it when you know its bad! I get it, you want to stake your claim in the world of mapping, but you cant just make some crap and release it expecting great feedback! If you really want to make a project but you know you cant really do it, then scale it down a bit, you don't need to try and build this large map with tons of unoriginal key puzzles. we have had to slow down dramatically with the doom/halo project so as to not lose scope and make a bunch of mediocre crap like you have. Sorry if I seem harsh, but if you want to be a mapper (or do anything creative for that matter) you have to draw the line at your skill level. I look forward to what you make in the future, but this has only hurt your reputation and I doubt you will receive nearly as much help on your next project given this wads impact and the publics reaction.


Woah, that was... unnecessary? One thing is to criticize the level with an honest feedback, another is to like infer that the author intended something when he did not. BTW, his reputation isn't going to get hurt, it is his first level after all lol

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Guys, thanks for all the feedback, I really appreciate it. I'm going to work more on my next map until it's in a state where I can post it.

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